Crimson, I'll share my perspective as a current WAW, if it might help.
My H is doing some DB'g of his own design. He borrowed my copy of the book but I don't think he's even opened it yet. So I have to position it as if I was in your W's shoes.
Responding to a bone from your W with the enthusiasm you displayed (not privately or on this board but to your W) would be very over-whelming. (I think the MC was well done, BTW.) I can imagine the fog she's in, the internal turmoil, the frustration, the loss of confidence. She likely IS questioning whether she's going the right course. But that indecision can't be addressed by the person that put her there in the first place. You are not currently someone that she can trust. In fact, you are in a way still the "enemy," so your input is the absolute LAST perspective she would be receptive to. Your trying indirectly, albeit enthusiastically, to lure her back is setting off all sorts of red flags in her. Maybe she's been here before, so once bitten, twice shy.
So the question begs, what would I want from my H?
I would need to reach a point where I felt that my happiness was more important to him than his. I think if I was her, I would feel that you're simply acting in a manner to get what YOU ultimately want, when I'm still trying to decide if I even want it. I would feel like I was looking at a slippery slope that would put me right back where I came from, after all the work I put into digging myself out if it, and I would automatically resist. That fear would possibly taint anything positive, at least for a while.
I think I would want to see a lot more changes in my H personally, before it even mattered what he did with/for me. That stuff seems fabricated and artificial. It seems temporary until he "gets me back." In fact, I personally HATE Valentine's Day. To me, it's just a marketing ploy to get guys to purchase hokey crap for GF'/W's so they can pat themselves on the back for what a great romantic guy they are. If my H were to do all that on some other random day of his choosing, when every endcap in every store wasn't plastered with it, THEN it would mean something to me. (You'll have to apply this to your W's perspective of the day -- some people love it.)
I think I would reject anything my H did that made HIM look good. That's a confusing, thin line. For example, I think it was good of you to call and ask about her sitch in regards to the water issue. It would have been a bad thing for you to run over there with your tools in hand to "fix it" for her. Likewise, it was good of you to offer to shop with her for the things she needed, but you went too far when you offered (positioned yourself) to pick her up and drive.
I guess the best way I can clarify it is for you to consider whether a thing/place is "neutral ground." Sort of "public access." Ask yourself if you would act differently with a friend? For example, with the shopping, it probably would have been better received if you had asked, "Do you want to meet me there or would you like me to pick you up?" This allows her to keep her distance without being put in the position of being the bad guy and having to counter your offer. She can simply pick the offer that suits her at the time. Eventually, when she's more comfortable, she'll pick the second option, and she'll be able to do it without a big hoopla. (Which means YOU can't make a big hoopla about it either, at least not in front of her. )
If your history has issues with control, you can't do ANYTHING that looks like you're trying to control her. The D is the one thing she has right now that makes her feel like she has control, and that's a beacon of light amidst the rest of the chaos running through her head. You have to look at this as if you're dating, not married, and not even going steady. There is absolutely nothing that you can assume in your relationship. And sometimes you need to do things that aren't even for your relationship, but for HER. The concert tickets were a great idea. Did you purchase them for her, or for her and YOU? If for both of you, I would be feeling trapped. I wouldn't be sure that I would want to go with you, yet, or at that future date. But if he bought them for me and I was free to go with whomever I wanted, then by the time it rolled around, I might be inclined to ask him.
The "public access" area is something that she has to feel free to cross when she's comfortable doing it. Any effort you make to "pull" her across will accomplish the opposite. I think making yourself very visible on the other side is great. Be open, be attractive, be receptive. Let her see who you are without you "showing" her who you are. Does that make sense? Be the male turkey cock that's puffed out his feathers and is strutting around in all his splendor, but doing so completely independent of the hen. The little turkey hen can't help but notice. Chase her and you'll run her off.
I've rambled on, but I hope this helps in some way.
That helps. A LOT. It really helps me sort things out. I guess my question to you (or anyone) would be how does this differ any from the stage I just left?
I don't know how to show interest or a desire to reconcile and balance it with staying a safe distance back. I think the answer for now is just to do nothing and wait for her. I feel a lot like she is peeling back some. It's hard to grasp because in the last MC session she talked about me never saying I missed her. Now when I show some of those emotions - it seems to backfire or something.
I asked her about the concert yesterday via text and she never responded. I will take that to mean that the enthusiasm she had previously has dropped off. When I brought it up via e-mail at worked she seemed a lot more interested. I won't bring it up again if she doesn't.
How do I convey to her that I am not solely looking for MY best interests? That I genuinely want ALL THREE OF US to be together and happy? Every time I leave her place with him he cries for his mama half the drive home. It makes me almost cry.
I realize that I have to focus back in on my changes, detaching and GAL. I was just hopeful that at this stage she would have a bit part in that life along with my son. Academically, I know that I have made some progress. Emotionally, I don't feel like it at all. I am having those stupid occasional waves of sadness....rejection and fear. I don't want to have to go to court this month, I don't want to get divorced.
Regardless....I get the point. Just let her be and hope she comes to me. But I think it is very clear that if I come to her she will not react well.
2TP - how do I detach while simultaneously trying to make myself more attractive? How do I independently GAL, while not excluding her? Or making her FEEL excluded?
Crimson - Detaching so that you protect yourself emotionally will allow you to be 100% present when you need to be. Detaching which also includes GAL will make you much more attractive because you will be doing things for Crimson and you will be in a much better emotional frame of mind to deal with the evolution of your sitch.
I doubt very much that your W wants to spend every waking moment with you, (at least not now). So, that being the case, what do you think you could be doing during those times when you are not with your W? If you answered GAL, then you win the prize!!
Your W will only feel excluded if you exclude her from things she wants to be included in on.
Do you play racketball? Do you swim? Do you run? Do you bowl? These are all things that you could potentially incorporate into your week and they are healthy alternatives to waiting around for a sign from your W. And they have side benefits; you meet interesting people, you exercise and you reenergize. All these things make for a more attractive Crimson.
Me51 W53 S17 S14 M22 T25 Bomb-9/11; A-11/11; I move out 11/11
It's easy to find our bottom, it is our top that requires cultivation.
Every rough spot adds to our emotional constitution. -Barney Fife
Here's another idea. Join a men's group or some other non-threatening activity that helps you to grow and evolve and keep your mind off your sitch. The more of that you do, the more attractive you will be to your W and the world at large. Schedule it around times when you are least likely going to be meeting your W.
I would suspect that if the opportunity were present for you to share with your W some of the things you are doing, that it would be viewed as positive. As long as it was presented in the right setting under the right conditions, (i.e. maybe in counseling where you share that part of your coping and self reflection and improvement have involved you taking up.... name your activity....
Does that make sense?
Me51 W53 S17 S14 M22 T25 Bomb-9/11; A-11/11; I move out 11/11
It's easy to find our bottom, it is our top that requires cultivation.
Every rough spot adds to our emotional constitution. -Barney Fife
I think the punch in the head for me on this is that for a fleeting moment I thought that this stage would give me a second to breath....to feel like I might....just MIGHT be OK. I knew I wasn't out of the woods - but I felt like I was closer than I was.
C, I think it's important for you to understand that there is no magic answer here. It's very possible that your W has absolutely no idea what it will take either. She's likely feeling it out day by day, just like you are. Being on the other side, it's so disconcerting to feel a glimmer of hope when it goes against everything you've suffered so hard to learn. Fool me once, shame on you; fool me 487 times and I'm ready for the straight jacket.
I know you don't want to be D'd. Having that date looming before you has to wear on you. At the same time, that date may have a very positive meaning to her (albeit her rambling doubts.) It may well be that you have to run through that date, that it's a test of sorts. Not really consciously, but sub-consciously for your W. If you make it through and you're still DB'g for her, she'll know it wasn't just for the financial benefit, or to avoid the D, or to convince her to drop the filing. It will demonstrate that what you really want is her, and you're in it for the long haul to prove it.
I get that it's very hard in your situation to demonstrate to her your efforts. But on the other side of things, being in the same house where I can see every effort (or lack thereof) that my H puts into it is not good either. I see when he picks up a R book and falls asleep two minutes later. I see him shopping ebay (GAL?) instead of working on our R issues. I hear him suggest that he would like 20 minutes to talk, and then he puts it off until midnight, to which I decline, then puts it off the next night until 10pm; then doesn't have much other than copies of some high-level questions from a book. My H's daily exposure isn't helping his situation at all.
I'm not going to be able to give you any advice on the GAL aspect. From the WAS side of things, that's a hard one to digest/rationalize, especially without understanding that you're doing it under specific instructions of the DB philosophy (which my H is not.) As I watched my H on Sunday take our son out to go look at which raquetball club to join, it did nothing to endear me to him. In fact, I made a point to work on my GAL in response. Neither of our efforts to GAL will translate into our married life. It would have been entirely different if he were investing his time in learning about gardening, since that's something I enjoy and we could ultimately do together given a reconciliation of the marriage. Or taking a cooking class that we would both benefit from ultimately. Since I don't play racquetball, I feel like he's actually investing in a GAL that doesn't include me. If he's not investing in me, why should I consider investing in him?
I completely get the concept that a depressed, needy, whiney ex is not appealing to a WAS. But neither is a happy, healthy, lively person that shares none of my interests. In addition, seeing a your spouse go on with life as usual -- or even better -- after you leave doesn't incent me to want to work at it. This is a very difficult area for me, so I'm hoping some others (WAS hopefully) can offer some insight into the philosophy of the appeal to the WAS. I think I must be missing it.
OH - forgot to mention my mom pulled me aside to "talk" Sunday. She and my dad kind of sense things between W and I. My mom is afraid that I am going to allow myself to be hen-pecked into submission. I reminded her that I had a role in the meltdown of my marriage and that some things I choose to keep private no matter how close she wants our family to be. She also mention her and my dad leaving soon. Looking like in the next 3-4 weeks. I can live with that. In the talk I really stood up for myself and my W. I found myself wondering as she was talking how in the h3ll does she (and my dad, for that matter) think that her level of trust in my W means anything to me? Don't egt me wrong, it was a good talk and I think I set some boundaries - but geez - it's time they realize I have a W and family and I am not 12.
If my H had responded like you?? Pardon my crudity, but I would have done him right then and there! OMG! He wouldn't have known what hit him, but I guarantee it would have left a huge smile on his face.
Obviously this is a problem area for us, but what a comfort to know that some men actually know how to "leave and cleave."
Don't be fooled, CV. It has taken me a long time to get there - but I am learning to spin myself off from my family and make my own.....hopefully. If you have any other phrases that I could use that would get my wife to do me on the spot I would LOVE to know what they are. Let's face it - it's been a long, dry fall, winter and spring does not seem to carry much more promise.
I am trying to make peace with the fact that despite my wife said she s sensing regrets and wanting to try reconnecting that this D might happen anyway. My heart has just hurt a lot today. I have to give my son back tomorrow and that never stops being hard. And, face it, I just really miss the love and companionship of my wife.
You know, C, this is the really ironic part. Doing what you need to do, and having her see what you're doing.
If you were a "Friends" fan, do you remember the episode where Rachel sees the tape where Ross gets all dressed up in a Tux to rescue Rachel and take her to prom? Hopefully you know the episode so I don't have to explain. The fact is that there really was nothing that Ross could say or do to convince Rachel how he felt about her. It took her seeing him at a moment that he wasn't prepared for, where he wasn't acting, where he wasn't anything except pure and natural Ross.
Another movie moment is the scene in Fireproof where his wife learns that he had paid for her mother's medical equipment. He didn't tell her, didn't brag, didn't position neon lights so that she would notice. He just did it because it was the right thing for him to do, EVEN IF she never took him back. THAT, my friend, is a man too good to leave.
And sort of the point I was trying to make when I was griping about Valentine's Day.
The problem is, all of us in this sitch have seen our spouses "pure and natural" for years, and sometimes it's just not pretty. Your wife thinks she knows you. She doesn't have a real reason to believe you're anything different than you've always been, or that the changes aren't just temporary.
The thing that struck me so in the exchange with your parents is that I believe it was just all you. Your W wasn't there so you certainly weren't doing it for show. You have nothing to gain by lying to anyone on this board. It's a trait/character that seems to be rare, even if it was hard-earned.
With our kids, the experts always talk about "quality time." But the fact is that you can't just make quality time, it sort of just happens. But in order for it to happen, you have to have "quantity time." Same for this process, I believe.
If you've heard your wife, if you really know what her deepest desires/complaints are, then keep addressing those. I'm really hoping that one of them will strike a cord with her. Thing is, you just won't know what it is, and you can't do it thinking "this is it!" You just have to go about life living out your love for her.
Let me say, too, that I believe that her reaching out to you in MC was monumental! Don't get bogged down with the fact that she didn't immediately turn back to you and drop the D. Don't talk yourself out of the promise that moment offered. Hang on to it, but just know that it will still take some time.
AFTER you reconcile, I can provide you with a bunch, like "Honey, I got a raise today, so I took part of it and bought this diamond tennis bracelet for you, and thought I'd find out what you'd like to spent the rest of it on," or, "Hey, Sweetie, I just finished a training class on full-body massages, and I was hoping you'd let me practice on you this week, starting with your feet."
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