MLC or Passive Aggressive or Narcissism

[TRUSTING]

This is a very interesting thread. It was only until I told my ex I did not want him in my life anymore and I wished him luck with OW, that he became nice and cordial. Jed Diamond in his book on the Irritable Male stated that the best way to handle these guys is not to provide any resistence. They absolutely don't want to give you what you want. I find this strategy quite effective with my ex.

[Kimmerz]

I have that book, I'll have to re read it!

[sleeper]

Narcississm, huh?

My X loves mirrors. Can't get enough of em. At kidswap last night she had one in the back of her SUV she was taking home. 4 x 3 ft.

[greatwhitenorth]

Hi All, and happy Superbowl Sunday!!

This thread has been a real eye opener for me. So much so that I printed off all the articles referenced here. PA explains EVERYTHING about H and my situation, the crux of the issue being that he is incapable of forming (refuses to form, more like) emotional attachments and uses obstruction and covert punishment to prevent them whenever they begin to appear. It seriously was like the planets aligning for me.

He knows he buries things and has told me this and that he's sorry for hiding from me. As for the past, "it's in the past, it doesn't matter" was his mantra. Repress, repress, repress, never discuss, never understand, never deal, never learn.

I told him when we split that he needs to deal with his issues, but he said he's scared. A good friend asked me if something happened to him when he was young...I have no idea because of that whole 'the past doesnt matter' thing.

I believe he knows he's making a huge mistake because his hands were visibly shaking when he signed the separation agreement and again six weeks later when we transferred ownership of the house to me and vehicle to him. Visibly shaking. Early on when he came by the house and we hugged when he left, he sobbed. Our life was his dream and he's tossed it all away.

The day I found out about OW and confronted him I asked him her age. "I don't know, 34, 35." And her kid? "I don't know, 3, 4." He told me that he didn't know where things would be with her in a year, and he told his daughter that he doesn't know if he even wants to be with her. She was an exit plan...that's it. And fitting with the PA modus operandi, she needs him and he doesn't need her, so he can't form a dependency. He saw me as necessary to his dream life, which is true. It's a life we had only because we were together. We needed each other for it, we were interdependent. PAs can't stand dependency.

I believe that if he were to ever confront that which he has buried he would have a massive breakdown. He's terrified. His fear of the breakdown is far stronger than his desire to live the life he's dreamed of. And yes, I know, his problems are his to solve. I am absolutely not co-dependent and do not take ownership of his issues or his happiness, but I do love him and care for him and want him to be happy. That is why I let him go without any of the begging, pleading, chasing that usually happens.

After a period of completely blackness I'll be seeing him soon when he comes to take care of the rest of his things. Do I spell out for him that the lifetime of pain and anger he's pushed down has led to this, and that he needs to deal with it if he wants to ever be happy? Or do I just leave it and trust that he knows already or will figure it out for himself?

I have to say again what an eye opener this thread has been for me. Thanks 4MyFamily for bringing it.

[job]

GWN,
Your knows that he's got issues that he has to examine and deal with. I wouldn't say another word to him about it. Like any addict, the more we tell them they have issues, the more they will deny them and tune us out. He's got to hit rock bottom hard in order to finally come to grips w/his past and present life and where he goes from here. Smile and wish him well, for he's going to need all of the prayers that you send to the man upstairs.

Take care.

[4myfamily]

GWN

The PA is very self destructive. 4 years ago when my W had an affair, post affair she actually admitted this 'why when things are going so well do I always have to go and do something stupid'.

The Affair/Replay seems to be like a mini MLC with short phases of Withdrawal and Depression but no Acceptance. 4 years ago she also touched on issues with her controlling father and her vain critical mother with whom she has never formed a close bond, but who she has pursued to try to get closer to. Almost immediately these thoughts were dismissed and what I think are her replay behaviors set in: taking on as many activities as possible to keep me at arms length.

'The passive aggressive withholds information about how he/she feels, their ego is fragile and can't take the slightest criticism so why let you know what they are thinking or feeling? God forbid they disclose that information and you criticize them.'

It seems because the PA is angry and frustrated from childhood and still has unmet needs they tend to externalize everything. You make them unhappy and they look for that 'special person' to make them happy. But all the time they will claim to be happy people?

The PA sees their role in a relationship as merely to turn up, the other partner must to all the work and have all the empathy.

'The passive aggressive never looks internally and examines their role in a relationship problem. They have to externalize it and blame others for having shortcomings. To accept that he/she has flaws would be tantamount to emotional self-destruction. They live in denial of their self-destructive behaviors, the consequences of those behaviors and the choices they make that cause others so much pain.'

The PA would rather destroy you (their main aim) their family and ultimately themselves rather than admit they are at fault.

In my view unless there is Acceptance and Individuation you will basically be stuck on the endless PA battleground.

Meanwhile the PA will exhibit a controlled and outwardly happy persona to the world. You will look like the crazy, angry person who has destroyed the marriage.

[job]

Let's not forget that while the PA is looking for that special person who will make them happy, they are also looking for someone who will not call them on their behavior. They want someone who is going to go along w/their every activity. They are also conflict avoiders.

I can still remember times when we would be ready to go somewhere and whether it was somewhere my xh wanted to go or not, he would suddenly announce that he had to go to the bathroom and there he would sit for long periods of time. I finally wised up and would just tell him to sit to his heart's content and would go on to the function. There were other times the my father would say that he couldn't understand the man because he would show him how to do something 5, 6 or even 7 times and my xh would still screw it up.

PA's are very difficult to live with and you will most definitely think you are the one that is crazy. I learned very late in the marriage what I was dealing with and then it was too late...out the door he ran to his HO (now wifey). Back after he left, she told me she thought he was a nice man. Wonder how that's working for her now?

Any way, PA is a "learned" behavior....BTW, you are so spot on w/the PA...their school of thought is to just show up and you do all of the work. That was the way it was in my marriage for a very long time...

[sleeper]

4Myfamily, GWN, Snodderly,

I think you guys are on to something. I wouldn't say a PA/N type is the only personality that experiences mlc but they sure seem prone to it.

My X never admitted she was wrong about much of anything. If I called her on something during the the M she couldn't refute her standard response was an adamant, "Now is not the time to discuss this.". If I pressed she would simply repeat those words and become miffed that I was pressing (shifting the focus to my shortcoming of not respecting her communicating clearly it was not the time to discuss it).

The few times she did apologize for something extreme like throwing something or hitting me she'd say, "I'm sorry for my behavior". I think this was a deflection as she wasn't responsible, it was her "behavior" that was at fault. She couldn't even own her own actions. The ultimate was when she began calling me "passive agressive" when I avoided contact with her after separation cause she was abusive. NO apollogy for her abuse but criticical of my actions in response to the abuse.

Apparently her C called her on some of her issues during separation as indicated by her comment to me she had stopped seeing that counselor because, "He is full of sh_t". Ths was a counselor she had knwn and seen for years.

I'm not surprised your H doesn't know the exact age of OW or her child. The details aren't important to him. She fills a need of his. I think that's what we are to them. People who fill a need at a particular time to be discarded and replaced as needs change.

I was the sperm donor. Her bio click was tickig and she wanted children from tge moment we were wed (preg 5 months later). The bonus was I had ability and liquifiable assets to set her up in business (I offered to make it happen cause I lived her and was committed to the M). She was pleasantly surprised as her original source of funding backed out and I told her we could make it happen.

OMH was the mlc distraction (they run rather than face their issues and therefore themselves). As a pilot he could (and did) fly her away from it all. With his greater income he became the vehicle for a step up in lifestyle. They immediately built a new minimansion after wedding.

I think that's why mlc marriages don't last. Theirs (line ours?) only fllls a temporary need which will not remain forever. When I look back she was always getting interested in a new activity, project, a diversion that didn't last. Hobbies, remodeling, karate, oil painting, children, learning a musical instrument, writing an autobiography (narcisistic?) not sticking with or finishing anything. The mlc trigger was major and required a major diversion.

"I want to live a life" is what many of them say and sounds positive but it contains the admission that they are quite miserable and desparate where they are.

[greatwhitenorth]

Snodderly, I will take your advice and not bring it up. I'll be cordial and positive and tend to the things I need to do to prepare for my dinner guests later that night. The smells of homemade bread and dry ribs slow roasting in the oven are sure to be reminders of some of the things he's missing out on. ;-)

H physically showed up. He took care of the "manly" things around the house...the pool, the boat, the vehicles, the grass. But emotionally he didn't. Even our honeymoon was just another trip for him. Crying on three days of it and cleaning up his projectile vomit while he was stone cold passed out was not a highlight, I have to say. He could plan the crap out of UFC night or hunting or fishing with the guys, but he never once planned anything for us. Not even where to go for dinner.

As for being called on his crap, you're right about that. It's part of not facing themselves, of running away. H said "I'm sorry for ruining your life" but he never said he was sorry for cheating on me. Had to make it about my life (which isn't ruined, by the way. I'm happier now than I have been in a very long time. H did all the classic PA behaviours and I responded classically, even down to psychosomatic symptoms in the form of a cough that lasted for years and went away when he left.) instead of about his choices.

4 and Sleeper...I was shaking my head while reading your newest posts. It's just uncanny. H said about his affair and leaving our marriage "I screwed up again and it has to be the last time." Apparently he was going to *learn* for the homewrecker and not for me. I know now it's all BS...he knows he screwed up, but he's not going to do anything about it. During this same conversation (it was like he was manic, quite soon after I busted him but before I found out he had lied about ending things with her) he said "I manipulated the truth" blah blah. WTH does that mean? Most of us would say we lied. Makes me laugh now, actually.

I think all this leads back to his strong mother and weak father. His father was functionally illerate and quite sick through most of his life, staring death in the face multiple times. He didn't drive and took care of none of the household responsibilities. He was given his death notice just a few weeks before our marriage and he died a few weeks after. While things seemed to start going downhill just after we decided to wed (him complaining that the front hall in the house was too small and we couldn't possibly stay there), and sped up after the wedding. He's mad at his father for being weak and at his mother for being strong (blames her for his father's weakness), and feels guilty about it. This, I would imagine, is the unresolved childhood issue/trauma. He probably had no voice growing up and never learned how to navigate conflict. It would explain to some extent how he blamed my "strong personality" for his unhappiness. Don't read that as bossy....I was never bossy and he had all the freedom in the world to come and go as he pleased. Ironic, really, and truly bizarre. And a perfect storm for MLC.

[kml]

"I manipulated the truth"

LOl! That's a good one!