Yes this thread is doing this for me too!I knew he was Passive Aggressive, but also MLC and then the narcisissm that comes with MLC. We are so lucky to have eachother on this board!
4myfamily, Im not exactly sure what you meant by his dependency need followed by denying his dependency? Do you mean that he depends on me for certain things, but also is in denial of it? I sure have felt that way. I feel like pulled taffy. Push, pull, push pull. I love you, stay away, I miss you, back off, I can't live without us being friends, let me treat you like crap. Sheesh in the same email where I called him on cake eating he said " It sounds like you don't want to be my friend. If that's the case then so be it". Gee, he never asked me if I wanted him to be MY FRIEND.
One thing that just blew me away is when he left he had been despondent, silent, non talkative, irritable, weepy, and nasty. His main PA tactic...silent treatment, stone walling, ignoring, brushing off. I could not start a conversation with him to save my life. He decided to leave on his own accord. AFter he leaves he layers this huge talkative action in between spewing at me. When he would talk with me, we were connecting in ways he hadn't in years. I actually thought getting out on his own was helping us become closer together!
I still can't get over some of the stuff he did, and just how self serving it was.
Antonia, I was accused of trying to make stbx crazy as well. I did the same thing you did with your xh. I said " look something really is going on here and Im really worried about you. I've never seen you like this before. I think you should see a doctor. Im concerned this is PTSD not dealt with". He agreed that maybe his anger outbursts were PTSD related and he'd think about it. A few weeks later....spew. Even told his family all about how I made him feel he was crazy and convinced him there was something wrong with him. His words "Maybe you have PTSD and need a shrink".. My words " after dealing with this I think you're right".
How to deal with PA? From what I understood from the book I read, is to have clear and firm boundaries. Clear and firm boundaries always result in him being offended, insulted, and therefore he feels disrespected, yet goes right along with things anyway. Or standing my ground now results in tantrums.
Do you know how babies are when they first discover their voice?
I think stbx has finally discovered his voice. REgardless of the games and PA behavior I do know for a fact that he let alot of people take advantage of him, and he wouldn't stand up for himself when he really should've. This includes our marriage. Im just now finding out about all these things that bothered him. He's now finding his voice with me. I would encourage him to do so because I would see things like his boss take advantage of him and it would make me frustrated. Yet he would just sit back and take it, or use mega manipulation skills to get what he wanted. That's how it always worked.
What made him find his voice? Being the victum of a violent crime. Now he's spewing at everyone for everything they ever did to him. He's blowing.
He's being very nice to me lately. I don't trust it, wish so much that I could. Our divorce should be final soon. Wonder if that has anything to do with it.
Kimmerz, forgive me but what happened that might have resulted in your stbx developing PTSD?
"Fear is the mind-killer" Muad'Dib Me 53, XW 44, DD 14, DS 12 Bomb and OM 12/15/06 Separated 01/02/07 Divorced 05/13/08 X married OM(OMH) 08/2009 Married 06/09/13
Hi sleeper, My stbx was shot in the head at work 4 years ago. He was shot by OW's stbx at the time.
This may be lengthy but Im going to give some history here.
Obviously stbx lived, or I wouldn't be here talking about our lovely dysfunctions.
See OW and my stbx worked together for a year or so by the time this happened. They were friends and I think my stbx got OW into online gaming.
OW's stbx (4 years ago) felt my husband and she were having an affair.My husband told me about this and felt it was silly. Everything pointed to them just being friends, but I had a very odd hunch SOMETHING was amuck. I couldn't place my finger on it. Hind sight now being 20/20, I think it was OW that was after my husband for a long time, trying to get him to rescue her. I don't think he started falling for it until MLC started kicking in. When and where it started to become more of an emotional affair I have no idea.
OW had another boyfriend at time of shooting and in divorce process with her stbx. Ow was with this man for about a year, maybe year and a half.
10 months prior to the shooting my mom unexpectedly died. My husband took it harder than I thought he would. It was then I saw how much he really did care about my mother.
About 6 months prior to the shooting my husband started acting very depressed. He wouldn't talk. I tried to connect, but I got the PA script " nothing is wrong" Im tired. Then a few months later he started getting irritable, angry, and nasty. I walked on egg shells for months. I had wondered if losing my mom was a catalyst into this depression I had never seen him go through before.
Then 4 months prior to shooting his grandfather unexpectedly died. Husband flipped out on me for me telling him I thought he needed to take some time off and rest especially during the time after his grandpa died. That turns into a spew session of all i did wrong. I flipped my lid and kicked him out.
1 week later husband comes bursting in the door at 3 a.m. telling me he's been detatched from reality. He doesn't undertand his thinking or why he comes to the conclusions that he does. He asks to come home, I say yes.
3 months later, he gets shot at work by OW's stbx husband. Ow and my husabnd were working together that night.
OW stbx is in prison till 2015.
Stbx suffered from being shot physically and of course mentally. He was able to stay at home for 9 months after the shooting but finances were dwindling due to them pulling workmans comp and unemployment running out. Those 9 months were like a honey moon for the family again. But what I did see was my husband turn into a hermit.
It was hard for him to go out in public. For starters loud sounds and such would give him flashbacks. Then it would turn into migraines, and he would get very anxious. So he stayed at home, feeling safe. This is where he needed to be and I was ok with this.
We live in a small town, so this was just the biggest hot news. People calling, coming over, in the news paper, the news paper calling us for interviews, seeing people in public...oh boy it was something else. And it was HARD. Husband stayed at home, I went out and dealt with reality. I had to. He needed to heal, my kids needed me to be strong, and life had to go on. I did it with my head held high. It was then I needed to fall apart, but I didn't.
When stbx went back to work, it was about 2 -3 months in to it he started getting really nasty, and mean. Mentally I don't think he was ready to face the world but he had to. I had noticed about 6 months post accident he started having more angry outbursts, which wasn't like him. He would physically start throwing things around, never like him. He would just go "snap". Not like him. One night he said something that really irritated me. I decided to go in the back room and cool off before I said anything. He came in and asked if he said something to upset me. When I told him, he snapped....and spoke to me in a way HE NEVER had before.
So to say this situation is complicated damn near doesn't do it justice.
4myfamily, Im not exactly sure what you meant by his dependency need followed by denying his dependency?
These are my thoughts:
The roots of PA and MLC lie in childhood. Generally the PA remembers his childhood being deprived of caring for his needs or his parents being overly critical. Subconsciously he/she expects all relationships to be like this. They will tend to find deprivation/over-criticism where there is none. Its what they expect and if it doesn't happen they will engineer deprivation in some way to prove how uncaring others are towards them.
A securely attached child will eventually start to leave the safety of their carer making little forays into the world, but returning to check the carer is still there and all is still safe. The secure child learns bit by bit that they are not part of their carer/mother but an individual - this is individuation -becoming who we are meant to be slowly and naturally. Note: our MLCer will do little 'touch and goes just to check you are still there' Our PA or MLCer has not been securely attached as a child and missed out on individuation, they will tend to adopt an 'accommodated' persona or false self to display to the world.
Part of MLC or mid-life transformation is this (delayed) individuation or change to personality.
We humans are dependent on others for our getting physical material and emotional needs met. A Passive aggressive is basically stuck in conflict over separation, they have a desperate need to be in constant contact with someone important to them but fear rejection and separation at the same time. So they fight the dependency and strive to be independent.
This seems to be the inner conflict 'As a human I need to depend on someone but what if I get close and they reject me?' I had better not get to close, or if I feel they are getting close i must do something to push them away' Constantly fighting their basic human need for mutual dependency. Constantly establishing their independence but always needing to have someone to depend on.
Dependency makes the PA feel needy. Remember our MLCer does not like needy, we must not plead or beg.
Our PA or MLC er will find a way of establishing contact with you because they want to be securely attached to someone but then use a PA behavior to drive you away.
IN my W's own words 'I want to find someone I feel totally secure with.' But we know the PA behavior to assert her independence will make her expectation of rejection a self-fulfilling prophecy.
4myfamily, Im not exactly sure what you meant by his dependency need followed by denying his dependency?
These are my thoughts:
The roots of PA and MLC lie in childhood. Generally the PA remembers his childhood being deprived of caring for his needs or his parents being overly critical. Subconsciously he/she expects all relationships to be like this. They will tend to find deprivation/over-criticism where there is none. Its what they expect and if it doesn't happen they will engineer deprivation in some way to prove how uncaring others are towards them.
A securely attached child will eventually start to leave the safety of their carer making little forays into the world, but returning to check the carer is still there and all is still safe. The secure child learns bit by bit that they are not part of their carer/mother but an individual - this is individuation -becoming who we are meant to be slowly and naturally. Note: our MLCer will do little 'touch and goes just to check you are still there' Our PA or MLCer has not been securely attached as a child and missed out on individuation, they will tend to adopt an 'accommodated' persona or false self to display to the world.
Part of MLC or mid-life transformation is this (delayed) individuation or change to personality.
We humans are dependent on others for our getting physical material and emotional needs met. A Passive aggressive is basically stuck in conflict over separation, they have a desperate need to be in constant contact with someone important to them but fear rejection and separation at the same time. So they fight the dependency and strive to be independent.
This seems to be the inner conflict 'As a human I need to depend on someone but what if I get close and they reject me?' I had better not get to close, or if I feel they are getting close i must do something to push them away' Constantly fighting their basic human need for mutual dependency. Constantly establishing their independence but always needing to have someone to depend on.
Dependency makes the PA feel needy. Remember our MLCer does not like needy, we must not plead or beg.
Our PA or MLC er will find a way of establishing contact with you because they want to be securely attached to someone but then use a PA behavior to drive you away.
IN my W's own words 'I want to find someone I feel totally secure with.' But we know the PA behavior to assert her independence will make her expectation of rejection a self-fulfilling prophecy.
4myfamilly
4myFamily ,,WOW your posts sounds dead on to my W right now. Any idea of how to approach someone like this? W has asked for a dissolution but yet still wants me to be a friend and still in her life. I have have now limited contact with her to S & important family matters. By doing this is there a chance of them hanging in? Or should I play the card dissolution is what you want I agree go ahead and start the process? Both of those ideas are not someone who sounds needy to me. This is my LRT I have nothing to lose at this point. What's your thoughts?
Thank you for that description. I can't tell you how enlightening and empowering this is. Finally validation of what I felt was going on all along.
As I read your post so many things are coming back to me! So many things he said, not only to me but his very own mother!
The last few months he was here, I tried so hard to connect with him but it was reciprocated with rejection after rejection. When spew time came, it was all about how I rejected him! When I called him on how I tried to connect with him he told me that he felt so awful as a man that he was scared to death to get close to me. If he got close to me and felt rejected, it would've killed him. Everything he accused me of rejecting him on he was the one rejecting it. After many months of getting stonewalled, I just let it go and let him be. Then, we had a self fullfilling prophecy.
Now, the "We've been friends since we were kids. I can't imagine you not being in my life. The thought of that just isn't right". But over the years I've come to think of you as a bitchy room mate. I've done everything I can to avoid you. This is not how a man should feel about his wife. I have every intention of remaining friends with you. That's all I've felt like for 6 years now is just friends. I can tell you don't want to be my friend." Seperation conflict at it's best there.
Oh my question: Is there a method to deal with this madness and still have a decent relationship with this type of person?
I now see that I wasn't crazy. I could see him bring down the walls just enough to be honest with me and himself, but then afterwards that wall goes up and the push becomes a shove because we just got too close.
All I can see is nothing but push - pull from here on out. The slightest hint of any sort of normal conflict, difference, whatever will just send the PA into the walls being put up, and us being shoved into outer space so quick we won't know what happened.
My original poet was really designed to help people stay detached by recognizing just how how (covertly) abusive the relationship with the PA is.
All the advice here about dealing with MLC is also dead on for PA and vice-versa.
Stay detached - minimal contact is good for YPO, any contact will enable a PA behavior. No I love yous etc never, never, appear needy. And you don't need to be abused! Do not appear desperate for them to return. Do not initiate relationship talk - enables PA behaviors.
If you have been subject to PA behavior just remember how mentally abusive it has been? Do you really want to be in a relationship with someone like that? Or do you hope they will change?
The change must come from within them, this is a journey they must make alone. Do not try to get in there and fix things you can't. Detach, detach detach, remember the abuse.
The PA binds them self closer to you than they care to admit. They will say things that wound and hurt to reject you but not take physical action. Actions speak louder than words. If they are not with an OP then chances are they are desperate for a victim for their PA. That is you. They need you but must deny it.
If you wanted a Divorce you would go for it wouldn't you? look at the illogicality I want a divorce but I am taking no action to do it! Do not help them if it was what they wanted it would be done by now. they want a divorce fine: 'I am sorry you feel that way'. End it there do not enable your own abuse by further discussion or helping them.
PA/MLC behavior is crazy making do not let it get to you. Detach, detach, detach.
Get a life, remember the abuse, feel happy to be free from it. Show them how good you feel about life, you don't need all this heartache. Detach. detach. detach.
Remember how you used to be optimistic and happy in your youth, looking forward to a great life. Do it now, you still have a lot of life ahead of you. Try listening to the music you enjoyed before you met your PA. Reconnect with any positive feelings about life you had then. Look after your own happiness no one else will. Detach, detach,, detach.
Be unavailable to them, do not go running if they try establish contact. Remember any contact is generally designed to show rejection (deny their dependency), and make you feel worse. If they actually ask for help in something positive be supportive.
Do not believe anything they say. They are experts at deviousness, lies and deception. Again actions speak louder than words.
Spend time with your children family and friends stay away from your abuser.
This goes back before you even met this person. You were not put on this planet to fix them this is NOT your problem to fix and you cannot fix it. Stay silent just listen, do not enter the PA battlefield, the PA must win no matter the cost, even to themselves.
You have no control over anybody's thoughts or actions except your own.
Do not feel responsible you are not to blame for any of this.
With time they will either change or they won't. If they change they will either come back or they won't. Be patient (enjoy the break from the crazy-making abuse) or move on, the choice is yours.
You have this power over your own life, you are the master of your fate, the captain of your soul.
I cannot thank you enough for this thread. It is the final piece of the jigsaw which I have found it hugely liberating, and finally made sense of all that senseless behaviour.
Right now I am facing a piece of behaviour which is so typically PA but it isn't distressing me anymore, just a decision as to how I handle it that is best for me.
As the final part of our financial settlement my xh owes me several thousand dollars, while I owe him a proportion of a joint fund in income for the next 18 months [it is complicated but there we are] Due to delays, some of which were outside our control, but some of which were definitely down to xh [now I can see why!] we had to renegotiate the amounts and managed to do this without involving lawyers. As always it was favourable to xh, but cheaper than getting my lawyer involved.
So I proposed one solution, which he amended, and we agreed. Then well over a week later I get an email telling me that his bank could not make the transfer within about 10 days. I suspect this is untrue, as it isn't a problem with my bank, and he is very savvy about financial things [control, right?] and I also wonder why he had to wait 8 days to find this out. Anyway I emailed back briefly saying OK, will await the transfer. Well it still hasn't happened, and I am deciding what to do. He is so good at setting up 'no-win' situations. When I ask for the money within a time-frame I will get a range of responses, none of which will be reasonable, but all of which will be plausible.
And to do so I will have to initiate contact, and this is part of the 'pull me push me' game they play. Anyway I have decided that I will leave it until two weeks have elapsed, and then when no money appears in my account, I will write and tell him this - in case it has gone astray (!) and suggest an alternative course of action which yields the same result, and doesn't depend on any action from him. I can see it is the only way not to get involved in their weird games
It is so helpful once you realise what you are up against, and what ticks their boxes. Yes they are crazy but it has its own weird logic. The trick is not to get sucked back in.
