Ok I need some emotional support, this is my first post and after reading some of the other posts on here I feel my situation isn't as bad as some. This is really long I know but I feel it's necessary for the full story.
My wife and I met when we were both 15 (now 34) my Mum and Dad divorced when I was 9 and I've come to realise in the last few months that I was really lonely growing up because my Mum suffers from depression, I didn't have a mother or a father in the emotional sense. 2 years after we met my wife moved into my Mums house with me and we've been together ever since. We didn't actually get officially married till 4 years ago but we've been like husband and wife since we moved in together. We have 3 children aged 3,6 and 9. A couple of years ago my wife had to go out to work as we are having money problems as before she was a stay at home mum, partly due to extreme clinical post natal depression when our oldest was born.
During the summer she started talking about 'nick' at work, I realise now I've been very insecure all my life due to my childhood and I started to get more and more jealous everytime she talked about nick, interestingly she also talked about mark at work sometimes as well but that didn't raise my jealousy as much.
During the summer she wanted to go and see Nick as they were 'just good friends'. I agreed despite my reservations as she doesn't have many friends and I felt my jealousy was my problem and was down to a problem with me. She used to see him almost every week and it was always out in the open and not hidden away, but as time went on I became more and more jealous and insecure. She used to say he was her best friend and they just talked. In November I moved out of home for a few weeks as my jealousy was massively causing problems between us, it was then while I was saying I was moving out for a few weeks that she told me she didn't have any feelings for me anymore. This really panicked me and I started reading up more and more on relationships.
Even though I had moved out I still saw her everyday and we were still texting each other everyday and during our talks she came up with a huge long list of why she had no feelings for me anymore which is a long list of things that had happened between us in the past, some accurate and some exaggerated to make worse then they were. After the 2 weeks and some realisation from another forum I came to the conclusion she was having a EA. So I moved back in without giving her a choice. The first night she slept on the sofa and then the following night she slept in our bed.
The next day I hacked her computer and looked at her iPhone back up files and saw all the text she and Nick had sent, there was a definite EA going on. Not quite I love you, but you make me so happy etc, your such a good listener, he asked her if she could be with him would she and she said yes. She talked about her favourite sex acts and there was one or two sex text such as him asking if she would give him a BJ for fun and she said yes. Also she said to him that she was suprised when I said I was moving out for a time as she wasn't expecting it and he replied with I hope you 2 can sort it out as I want you to be happy. Interestingly when I moved out the text between them stopped and she said this was because he was in her bad books. But after confronting her it was because she had come to realise it was wrong.
Anyway when she came home from work I confronted her and she went mental, trying to cut herself with a knife, trying to take loads of tablets and putting her fist through a window. I wasn't angry, I was in shock, betrayed and very heartbroken. She started sleeping on the sofa again and was really angry and upset and she said she only did it because she thought we were over because of the lack of attention and my affairs - I've never had an affair and when questioned about 'my affairs' she seems to have conjured up 2 parts of my life when I was reasonably happy, one 14 years ago and one late in 2010. I asked her to stop speaking to Nick and she agreed but after 1 1/2 weeks she still hadn't ended her friendship with him claiming she can't get in contact with him and was also I see now not trying that hard, probably because I asked her too and I got so angry that I gave her an ultimatum, either him or me and gave her 4 days to do it. The next day she said she'd done it. It was after the ultimatum that she took her wedding, engagement and eternity ring off which also broke my heart again. The next week or so were very tense and I constantly suspected she was still in contact with him but managed to hang on until after xmas before I had enough and moved out again as I was too angry and wasn't helping the situation.
During our talks while I was still at home, she said she didn't love me anymore, she doesn't know what she wants, shes confused and everytime I mentioned we should split up permenently she panicked and backtracked. In moments of truthfullness she said she was sorry for hurting me and once said she was sorry for getting too close to someone else. A couple of days after xmas I told her I was leaving permently and she had a panic attack and lay by me and was quite loving in her words, but didn't say anything like don't leave etc but said the break might do us good.
The next day I did a seperation agreement setting out some basic rules but included marriage counselling and us talking fortnightly but she wanted that changed to once per week and that the seperation was for a maximum of 3 months.
In the first 3 weeks I've struggled to leave her alone going round twice extra per week wanting to talk and making her really angry, the trouble is although she listens she is not 'trying' to fix things, she is going to marriage counselling with me but that isn't helping. She keeps saying she has no feelings for me all the time and is confused and doesn't know what she wants, last week I started to wonder if she is going through a MLC but dismissed it, but after marriage counselling a couple of weeks ago we were talking and and she said the most hateful thing of how happy she is without me and how they notice at work when we haven't talked, and asked me does that make sad? This really hurt almost as much as the other things she had said but later she started talking about her Dad who had died almost 3 years ago and how she had all these ambitions of climbing the career ladder at work, learning to drive, redecorating the house and how she only had 19.5 years left, I asked what she mean't and that most of her Dads side of the family had died of strokes and he had died when he was 55 so she hasn't got much time left. I said I wanted her to do all those things too but she says she can't be with me because when shes around me shes this subserviant controlled woman, I explained to her that shes responsible for feeling that way and shes in control of herself but she says she can't change.
I keep on trying, more for the kids and the fact that I believe in family but she keeps pushing me away ( apparently it's emotional blackmail when I say that too her?). The more time I spend apart the more I realise what I've been missing out on for the last 10 years or so, I haven't felt loved,wanted, appreciated etc and I kind of feel why should I bother? But later on I'm back reading relationship books.
I've managed to not contact her at all the last 2 weeks apart from our Sunday talk and Tuesdays marriage counselling. I am absolutely paranoid that she is still in contact with Nick but I know she can't see him because of childcare arrangements so the worst is they can text each other but I keep asking her if she is still in contact and she says no everytime but I never fully believe her. She said on Tuesday that when she spoke to him to kill her friendship that he had said that him and his ex - girlfriend had got back together and apparently his ex had banned him from speaking to her. I don't fully believe this story but I can see it is possible. I'm just trying to come to terms that she may still be talking to him but thats all that can happen and that theres nothing I can do about it.
I am so lonely and vulnerable at the moment and the whole thing has set off emotional timebombs of my past and how the only person who has ever loved me doesn't love me anymore.
The last 2 weeks I've been really working on myself, been climbing up local hills, started kickboxing again (loving that) tried to reconnect with friends and family. And when I told her about that she it was great, really great.
I keep getting mixed signals from her all the time like shes only going to marriage counselling for me but when I asked her last sunday what was the point of talking and marriage counselling if shes not really going to be trying for the relationship (which she said was also emotional blackmail) she said she wanted to see what could be done(had 3 sessions now)
Through reading the forums already I see at one point or another I've made many common mistakes already and have learnt from them. The big one was leave her alone and stop being needy! I know I need A LOT more patience and I'm really struggling. I've read just about every relationship book there is in the last month apart from DBing (it's been ordered!) and am working through my self esteem issues and self confidence issues. I can see that over the last 10 or so years I've turned into a right wimp and lost my way. I'm also reading Carlos Xumas Alpha male e-book which is amazing and I feel more 'manly' already. I've also learnt that at the moment when we talk, not to look at her directly as she finds it intimidating and she opens up more when I don't look directly at her.
Thats enough for the moment and hopefully will get you upto speed.
I'm ready for kind words, criticism and 2x4s
Thanks Andrew
PS shes not mentioned the big D word yet but just talks about splitting up and not seeing a future together and even expects me to move back in after the 3 months and her going back to sleeping on the sofa.
Hi Denton. It is unfortunate that you beat yourself up for being "jealous". While it is something that you may want to work on, when a spouse transfers their emotional efforts onto someone other than their spouse, there is a real problem...
as you've found...
Too early in your sitch to issue any 2x4s.
For now, have you read Divorce Remedy? If no, get a copy and read it.
You have been the recipient of the standard scripts. You are going to continue to get this as well as the mixed signals for a while, certainly if the A continues and even for the first while if the A ends, because your W will be going through "withdrawals".
Do you know about LRT? How about detachment, GAL and 180s?
Thanks for replying, yeah I realise I'm getting the standard responses from her after a lot of reading, I just expected her to say I'm sorry it was an accident lets work out this marriage when I confronted her (which was early December) and am still struggling with the fact she didn't respond like that!
She said she 'killed' her friendship with him on the 16th December which I'm starting to believe is true, it wasn't an A that would go anywhere - he is 24 and lives at home with his Mum and Dad! and I am 99.9% sure it was only an EA not a PA based on the text messages I read, it may possibly have developed into an PA BUT I get the impression from talking to my wife that she doesn't think it was an A because it didn't get sexual. If it had I wouldn't be trying to save the marriage - that would of been to far!
Kinda doing LRT at the moment, only see her on Sundays for our chat and Tuesdays for MC. Yep know about detachment, thats whats helped me get this far and I still have a long way to go because I was completely dependent on her and she was on me for many years until she went back to work.
Doing the GAL, hence lunch with friends, reconnecting with my Brother, Kickboxing, these are all things I didn't do before. Trying to work on 180's done some naturally, like GAL,leaving her alone and stop persuing her, trying to be happy when I see her, on Sunday night I'm not going to talk about the relationship unless she brings it up. Going to keep trying to work out more.
... I just expected her to say I'm sorry it was an accident lets work out this marriage when I confronted her (which was early December) and am still struggling with the fact she didn't respond like that!
Yeah... wouldn't THAT be nice... we're all waiting for our spouses to say that...
Originally Posted By: Denton
She said she 'killed' her friendship with him on the 16th December which I'm starting to believe is true, it wasn't an A that would go anywhere
It is reasonable that you may have SOME doubt and will obsess over this and possibly even snoop. Do your best not to.
What you WANT to do is become a fantastic Denton by ridding yourself of negative behaviours and building better and new positive behaviours so that only a fool would leave you... hopefully your W won't be that fool.
Originally Posted By: Denton
Kinda doing LRT at the moment...
...
Doing the GAL...
Awesome! Keep doing this. Eventually (if she hasn't already) your W WILL notice. This could take a couple weeks or so, so be observant if your W seems to remain distant or further distances herself, or if your W appears to be more interested in you and what you are doing...
Understand, this could first come out as anger. She might give you the scripts of "you are only doing this because I was leaving you" or telling you she doesn't believe them or you are trying to live a lie...
Put on your flame proof suit, just in case and work on your detachment so you don't react IF she spews at you.
Keep us posted. Journal here, let us know what you are doing, and let us know if your W has any positive or negative reactions.
It is reasonable that you may have SOME doubt and will obsess over this and possibly even snoop. Do your best not to.
Yeah, kinda figured this out, a couple of weeks ago when the paranoia kicked back in I hacked her computer again while the house was empty and she was at work, didn't find anything but I don't think I was ever going to as she knows I can do that now and would contact him using her phone and some kind of IM if she was going to. I'm trying to put it out of my mind as I can't control it and she can't see him due to having to look after the kids all the time.
Originally Posted By: Kaffe Diem
Understand, this could first come out as anger. She might give you the scripts of "you are only doing this because I was leaving you"
Already had that for wanting to talk about her when she said that she thinks I didn't understand her and I was trying to get her to talk and she said " You haven't been interested in the last 18 years, why bother now"
I just can't believe what a cold heartless bitch (her words!) she has become, while we've drifted apart she has NEVER bought it up, NEVER said lets go to marriage counselling, NEVER sat down and said we need to talk, NEVER bought a book on relationships. We haven't physically fought or called each other derogatory names or argued in a shouting way, I've been nothing but loyal and faithful and honoured my marriage vows.
Why do I have to deal with all this crap when shes 50% responsible for the marriage too, shes the one that got to close to someone else and shes the one behaving like this and putting our family in jeopardy and causing untold stress on me and 3 children (and I guess herself too).
She wants independence, but she doesn't see that while I'm not living at home she is less independent then she was before. If we do divorce she is financially screwed and can't afford to live on her own with 3 kids, whereas I'm sorted with a house and a life and a alright paying job.
I've said before I'm not a patient man and I can see that I will be alright and I could quite easily go and have a MLC of my own right now if she keeps pushing me away and not really trying for our R. In my mind I've given her 6 months (won't tell her this so as not to pressure her) but I'm struggling after only 1 month not to say thats it!
OK so just come back from our Sunday night talk! Feel kinda proud of myself although my very bitten tongue hurts a lot
So taking the advice on here I didn't start talking about our relationship at all although thats what our Sunday evening talk is supposed to be about! We talked about her work for a good half hour, it wasn't an easy talk at all and felt strained a lot of the time but hey it least it wasn't about our relationship. Although I did good here because she keeps moaning she doesn't have any time to do her reading up she needs to qualify for a pay rise. I normally would of pointed out how she could have found the time to do it but did a 180 and didn't mention anything although I admit I pushed it a little bit when I asked if she had hour long lunch breaks this week and she said but thats my break time. I dropped it at that though! The truth is, she has LOADS of time to read her books, they would only take 3 hours or so reading and even though she has to look after the kids, they're in bed by 2030 so she has a couple of hours in the evening, she doesn't do any housework - really, hardly any at all ( I used to do the majority) and shes just had 2 days off and done absolutely nothing and 1 day I looked after the kids after school so she had lots of time to herself.
Then she started talking about our finances (I'm about to go bankrupt) and how she was thinking about putting her name on the council house list as she was concerned about losing the house if I went bankrupt, I explained to her again that it's very unlikely as there is no equity and even if they did, we would get a year to find somewhere else. She also said how she would be better off seperating our finances which confused me a bit, as I wasn't sure what she was trying to say because she would get £800 in benefits if we seperated our finances (note she said seperate our finances - not split up) so I worked out what we get currently together and showed her it was a £1000 more together. I was trying to work out what she was suggesting and I don't think she knew herself and then asked her in a roundabout way if she was suggesting we seperate our finances so she claim those benefits and she sort of agreed but then I pointed out that was fraud and she said yeah but it would pay for her driving lessons. So I think maybe she was trying to prove she would be alright on her own but it kind of backfired.
She said she wants a fresh start away from our home cause our oldest needs a room to himself and started crying, it's true he does and I acknowledged that, what she doesn't know is that there is the option of my whole family moving to my Mums house with cheap rent which has an extra bedroom and is the perfect answer to our situation, I was so, so tempted to tell her that but I'm not sure if I should, because I want us to sort things out first or at least make significant progress. So I said to her, what we'll have to do is if we wort 'us' out is rent a bigger place and she said do you ever see us sorting it out? and I said, I don't know - all the other times she has said something similar I had said yes and she said that she can't imagine us being together again, I so wanted to say that I bet 12 months ago you wanted of imagined us being apart either!, but I didn't should I of?
She said I keep going back to the old me, like for example yesterday she was annoyed with me when she said she can't afford her first driving lessons this month I just shrugged my shoulders at her, I asked her what she would of liked me to have said and she said anything but shrug my shoulders, I apologised and validated her, I only did it because I was trying not to offer her a solution, not to be rude.
Then we got onto, me not picking her Mum up to babysit and taking her home 4 days a week while we are both working. It's something I had done for over a year and it added an hour onto my day and when I moved out the 2nd time I requested a few weeks off from that it I was very very very stressed, confused and upset. She agreed and actually arranged her sister to do it to quote'make me happy'. I never got a thanks or a word of appreciation for doing it mind you for over a year! I said then that I recognise that I've had a month off of doing it and I'm quite happy to start doing it again and explained how I needed a break and how it was only temporary and she said she lost all respect for me when I requested a bit of time off (if an alternative could be arranged!) and gave me a long lecture about family etc etc. I just listened and validated but in my mind I was thinking you selfish inconsiderate unappreciative person, wheres my empathy! I asked her directly if she wanted me to start doing it again and she said no, she realises she can't rely on me and she'll find another way. I said the offers there if she wants me to (another 180, instead of forcing it!) That kind of annoyed me because it was only temporary and I genuinely was happy to start doing it again, but she won't have it.
Still with me? Good, almost there!
Then I asked her if there was anything else she wanted to talk about this evening and she said no and I said I might as well go back to my Mums house then, a new 180! she always finished the Sunday evening talk by saying she was tired and how she had stuff to do or set a time to finish, whereas I was always trying to extend it or keep on talking and this was about 45 mins before we normally finish!
As I said goodbye to the kids my D asked if I could look after them on Wednesday as W is at work and I was off. So I said that was great idea and asked my W if it was OK to look after them after school on wednesday but she said I'm not off and I said I know but I want to see my kids! So she obviously thinks I only look after the kids to help her have a break. Proved her wrong again.
Sorry for the long post but wanted to put as much as possible incase I missed something, also happy because she unlocked her iPhone right in front of me so I now know the passcode for it - not going to snoop but it implies to me there really is no contact with Nick anymore as she used to be terribly possesive of it and although she has left it around the house since she said she broke off her friendship with him it still had a passcode on it.
Quite enjoyed the look on her face this evening of confusion and WTH is going on and she was trying to figure stuff out.
I also think depression is coming on a bit, she was playing card games on her iPhone earlier after tea which she never does normally except when she was going through her clinical post natal depression 8 or so years ago. I think shes been depressed for years but she wont have any of it and wont go and see a doctor about it. I also asked her a month or so ago to go and see her Dr about some new tablets she started taking for a different medical illness in the summer last year because one of the common side affects is depression but she insists shes not depressed even though she did an online test that she says she is, apparently shes only depressed when shes with me.
Any help appreciated and hopefully my DR book should arrive tomorrow.
Also, just to add. I always know if a talk with my W has been alright or not as she walks me to the door to say bye and wave in a nice friendly way. If I've really annoyed she doesn't do that but tonight was interesting because she came to the door and I had already started walking to the car as she normally soesn't want to say anything but this time she said 'bye then' and shut the door in a stroppy way like she expected me to stand on the doorstep talking to her? So was there a little bit of a connection there?
Good on the end of snooping. It really doesn't help you or the sitch... at all... if something is going on, you will know... IMO, that stuff actually has a way of showing itself, even if we don't snoop...
Not funny so much, but at one point, my W pointed at herself and called herself a cold hearted be-otch as well... it was in reference to something else, but she was actually smiling at the idea...
Not a huge deal, but as the end of your #2216892 post above, your anger came through loud and clear. That is OK to vent your anger here, it is certainly one of the emotions you will have to go through. As you start your next post you indicate that you've been biting your tongue and that is good.
Be careful where you let your anger (and grief) out... and do your best not hold onto that stuff... you loved this woman once, and you likely weren't mistaken to do so... let it out... and let it go... this is a good place to do it, but after a while, it may start to get old and we will likely encourage and support you to work through it...
Your second post from today had a lot of detail... not a huge deal, but eventually the details won't have as much importance to you... that's generally a good indicator you've detached...
To help you with that, I won't dissect that post... I will just point out there was a lot of focus on her and a lot of words...
DB is really more about actions then words and focus on ourselves...
+ I did this... it felt great... my W noticed with praise... + I did that... it felt great... my W rolled her eyes and left the room... + I did that... it felt bad... my W cried... and then yelled at me...
Do... Monitor results... Adjust if and as necessary...
Not a huge deal, but as the end of your #2216892 post above, your anger came through loud and clear. That is OK to vent your anger here, it is certainly one of the emotions you will have to go through. As you start your next post you indicate that you've been biting your tongue and that is good.
Be careful where you let your anger (and grief) out... and do your best not hold onto that stuff... you loved this woman once, and you likely weren't mistaken to do so... let it out... and let it go... this is a good place to do it, but after a while, it may start to get old and we will likely encourage and support you to work through it...
Thanks for replying as usual! I've deliberetly been trying to avoid my anger every week and I've noticed that it has become less and less every Sunday when we talk. I was purely venting on here and is not something I would say to my W, but I needed to say it somewhere. My anger was also one of my motivations to start kickboxing again. Earlier on yesterday I had a bit of a revelation and realised that perhaps I had been angrier for the last 8-9 years then I thought I had, now I've had time on my own to compare the contrast and having lost my temper with D3 earlier I sought of came to see that I've been really angry, not shouting anger but real pent up frustration, anger and stress. In fact my anger through jealousy and the EA probably was what pushed her away from me as it added on to the anger from before.
Originally Posted By: Kaffe Diem
Your second post from today had a lot of detail... not a huge deal, but eventually the details won't have as much importance to you... that's generally a good indicator you've detached...
To help you with that, I won't dissect that post... I will just point out there was a lot of focus on her and a lot of words...
Yeah, I guess because I'm still very new to this I'm just looking for feedback that I'm doing the right thing or making any obvious mistakes that I haven't seen yet.
I will just point out there was a lot of focus on her and a lot of words...