W racing to finish line - do I bring up OM?

[BadLuck]

I have been doing the LRT for the last couple months, but the only communication from W has been regarding me "delaying" the paperwork.

I suppose my term "confront" is viewed more negatively than what I was intending. It was more just to bring it up in a peaceful, non-threatening manner saying that I think that we should be honest with each other.

I certainly would not stalk OM or W and try to "catch them" or anything like that.

Unfortunately, I did mention this to her parents as I thought it would provide a balanced view as early on in the process W basically told them every single bad thing I've ever done without anything good. Of course, that backfired and they are in support of her doing "whatever makes her happy" and they feel that I should just let her move on.

The thing is that when I do see my W, she does mention that "I understand that I should have asked you to do more and not let it get to this point" and "I should have been more straight forward" and I talked to her last week about some stuff related to L and she mentioned an e-mail that one of our close friends sent out regarding the birth of their new child and asked "did you see the e-mail he sent and how he was so nice to his W in e-mail, that's something that you would never do".

I keep thinking that her still bringing these things up means something like she's still torn and just trying to justify her decision. But I struggle on how to capitalize on this without keeping us in limbo forever.

Thank you again for all the thoughts, they are so helpful. I have been following Crimson's posts as well and am so happy for him and hoping that my W has a similar epiphany, but am mentally prepared if this does not happen.

[25yearsmlc]

just saying I posted to you on another thread.

It sure helps if you stay on one thread

so we don't repeat ourselves, or miss details from one post that are not in another...

[~ kd ~]

One of the hardest things to get through to an LBS is that is even harder than realizing we cannot control things or people...

It is, that we may NEVER get the answers to our questions to our spouses... for the rest of our lives, we may never be satisfied with the answers our spouses give to us regarding the answers they might choose to give us...

GH31 gave you a very good break down of how your desire to get satisfactory answers and resolution from your W...

Sure, sometimes it can work... it really is your choice. Take a risk and ask and hope you get good results, or take a risk and don't ask and surrender to the past and work on a better today and tomorrow...

Just a nudge towards a path of introspection and growth for you...

[25yearsmlc]

what are your 180s?


What did you say when your w said "you'd never do that"?

She won't come back if she does not believe the marriage to you

from this day forward,

could be better/different.



So what are you DOING and how you are YOU showing her any of that?

[Broken74]

Oneeleven, thanks so much for posting the above you just crushed a major pain point in my brain. You are exactly right, why dwell and something and keep asking yourself questions, when even if you do breach the subject directly you're not really going to know anyway???

AHA!!! Thank You :-)

[Oneeleven]

Oneeleven, thanks so much for posting the above you just crushed a major pain point in my brain. You are exactly right, why dwell and something and keep asking yourself questions, when even if you do breach the subject directly you're not really going to know anyway???

AHA!!! Thank You :-)

I cannot take the credit, it's a repost from one of this OPs other threads.

But I am glad it helped you too

They are fantastic words of wisdom.

[BadLuck]

Thanks 25, KD and others - I am exclusively on this thread now (when moderated, my posts wouldn't show up for days so wouldn't get seen by this active thread, so tried a different one).

My 180s are: (i) not pursuing and (ii)being calm and not getting excited (W used to think I had a short fuse)

GAL activities are: (i) work out more (ii) hang out with friends and family (iii) focus on work more (not really a life, but needs to be focused on more than it has been)

When W said "I'd never do that", I didn't quite validate but just acknowledged it and didn't try to say I would or anything like that.

The thing that really stinks is that in November before she went on a trip, she told me "it's not like I can just move in and everything will be fine", and I said something like "why not?" instead of validating.

At this point forward I want to DB to the book, as I haven't done very well with it in the past. In fact, before I went dark in early December, I sent her a note effectively telling her in a punitive manner, saying "fine, if you don't want to talk, then I don't think it makes sense to see each other ever again"...thought that would give her a wake-up call at the time, but now realize how dumb that was.

She sent me a text yesterday about something related to the condo and made a slight joke with a smiley face on it, but I know that doesn't mean anything because she's likely just trying to stay on good terms through this process. She actually even said she'd like to remain friends when this is said and done and I told her in no uncertain terms that it would be impossible.

I think my biggest issue is trying to show her changes without pursuing since there are no children involved and therefore not a reason to see each other. The only communication we have is regarding logistics around D, and that hardly seems like a place to talk about things I've started to figure out.

We still need to visit our safe deposit box to split up our assets in there and think that will occur within the next week or so, so hopefully that is an opportunity.

[MrBond]

Have you read DB or DR? Alot of your questions can be answered by reading them.

[25yearsmlc]

Thanks 25, KD and others - I am exclusively on this thread now (when moderated, my posts wouldn't show up for days so wouldn't get seen by this active thread, so tried a different one).

My 180s are: (i) not pursuing and (ii)being calm and not getting excited (W used to think I had a short fuse)

GAL activities are: (i) work out more (ii) hang out with friends and family (iii) focus on work more (not really a life, but needs to be focused on more than it has been)

are you sure you read and grasped all of the DB concepts? I mean no offense but I just read your prior posts on another thread

and you've been here since at least August and so, when have you shown her NEW behaviors? Also your 180s are passive mostly as in "not being angry" but how about some affirmative actions? Join something or go skydiving or something she would NOT expect you to do...

She said that comment at Thanksgiving...and you were silent. Why not own it and say "If I had it to do over again, there are lots of things I'd do differently"...?


When W said "I'd never do that", I didn't quite validate but just acknowledged it and didn't try to say I would or anything like that.


your silence was agreement with her, so in her eyes-- you remain the same way as before...

INSTEAD

you could have said something about "now you realize" b/c the point is, and has been, that YOU CAN CHANGE...ARE changing...have changed, etc

but you've Not done so much to show her. Have you? I mean she felt neglected and mistreated by you for awhile. Her letter sounds resolute but nothing is written in stone.

Problem is, You have a temper to have sworn at her repeatedly...so your perception of the marriage was at wild variation from hers...why didn't she join you for any of the 3 weeks in Paris? Just a thought...

So, if she believes you have a temper (and I'm believing it b/c cussing at a spouse is not acceptable. Have I EVER done it? Yes and I'm not proud of it).

As she ages, she probably does not see you as a solid father figure of her children b/c she wants someone who makes her feel safe. All women do.

Could you address that with her sometime SOON?

I think the "rushed" feeling you perceive, (though she's felt bad about the marriage for a much longer time and dropped the bomb on you this past summer, correct?)

So my guess is, since she has already turned 30 and her parents want their grandkids to be fine...and the clock is ticking and her m to you did not feel stable and she felt you were critical and sometimes downright mean to her, that you two don't get along well enough and that a future with you and children, would be a trap for her. My goal if i were you, is to show that she can feel safe around you and that you won't "lose it" b/c you are a different man now.

It's a little late now, but at least you'd know you said it...

What was the inlaws r with you before the bomb?



The thing that really stinks is that in November before she went on a trip, she told me "it's not like I can just move in and everything will be fine", and I said something like "why not?" instead of validating.

At this point forward I want to DB to the book, as I haven't done very well with it in the past. In fact, before I went dark in early December, I sent her a note effectively telling her in a punitive manner, saying "fine, if you don't want to talk, then I don't think it makes sense to see each other ever again"...thought that would give her a wake-up call at the time, but now realize how dumb that was.

Do you get it for real? I mean, do you honestly see how that response of yours (Punitive means it came from anger--your issue)

effectively confirmed every negative trait she mentioned in her letter to you in August? So in her mind, 4 months passed and that's the "Growth" you showed her...

I am confused as to why you want to work on it now and didn't before?

I worry that the only reason you care now, is b/c there's an OM. Beforehand, you'd have let her go, correct? That's what your behavior indicated anyhow.

So is this about winning, or about being the husband she deserves?



She sent me a text yesterday about something related to the condo and made a slight joke with a smiley face on it, but I know that doesn't mean anything because she's likely just trying to stay on good terms through this process. She actually even said she'd like to remain friends when this is said and done and I told her in no uncertain terms that it would be impossible.


what are you thinking when you say this^^^ stuff? You'll "Show her"?? She feels mistreated by you so why would you do ANYTHING UNKIND? It's tough to just be friends -we know-- but I would bet money your tone and intent was still punitive, not remorseful or even that you'd "try someday". You don't get it...sorry but you really don't...

I think my biggest issue is trying to show her changes without pursuing since there are no children involved and therefore not a reason to see each other. The only communication we have is regarding logistics around D, and that hardly seems like a place to talk about things I've started to figure out.


if it's the only place, then use it. Stop wasting time...she's not snapping out of it, YOU have to snap out of your denial about how you got here.

We still need to visit our safe deposit box to split up our assets in there and think that will occur within the next week or so, so hopefully that is an opportunity.

Create and make the most of the opportunities you have remaining...and I'm posting something to you that may not make you feel good BUT may shed some light on what I THINK your w has felt...or feels. And again I remind you, nothing is written in stone. But you must be the catalyst for change in YOU...

FROM A WAW TO A LBS HUSBAND WHO HAS CHANGED AND WONDERS WHY HIS WAW HAS NOT COME HOME YET AND HOW SHE CAN BE AT ALL INTERESTED IN OM….

"When I read your interactions with your wife, I could so easily identify with your wife's feelings/words/sentiments. I have been in her position in my M. I was the ignored, the devalued, the one who was treated as less than. I even got chills when she talked about the FB issues, because I've been there and done that, bought the t-shirt Of course, my H went a step further and cheated, then left, adding an extra crunchy layer of goodness to my sitch.

One of the things that I have tried my hardest not to do, is not to engage with another man. Not just because of my marriage vows, but because I knew that when I truly engaged in any type of R with another man, it would make it that much harder to ever reconcile with my H. Because being treated differently (better) than the way he treated me would lessen him so much in my eyes. So, I can see where your W is coming from. When you've been mistreated to the point where you actually let go of your R enough to let another person into your heart or bed or whatever, it takes a boatload of work to get back on a page where you're recommitted to being with your S - and those uncertainties that she's expressed to you, I don't know if you truly, truly fathom how deep they run.

Six months of getting back on a page where you treat her the way that any wife should be treated does not even scratch the surface of the years, the intrinsic devaluing that occurs when you're systematically mistreated for such a stretch of time. And I promise you that while you have recommitted and worked for 6 months, your W has simply been trying to get to a point where she can even buy into the changes, where she can even think that you might have changed and not scoff at the thought. Because when you build up hope again and again and again in your H and he crushes it again and again and again, you develop a thick skin, a protective doubt, a conditioned response to even the slightest, grainiest seed of hope. You are taught that when you hope, you will be disappointed. When you try, you will fail. You are taught that you will never be what he wants and it is hard to shake what you have come to believe is reality.

And for the changes that you've made to have come only when she walked away and OM became competition, I can definitely see how she can doubly doubt that you truly want to be in a M with her, and not just to win.

Even you today say that you are not sure that you don't just want to win.

Step 1 - figure that sh!t out ASAP. Because if you actually do manage to convince her that you really do want her and really have recommitted to her and you actually just want to win, you'll put her through hell."
____________

Good luck Badluck...

I mean it...

[BadLuck]

Wow 25 - I've seen you dish out some good advice to others that really opens their eyes but getting it first-hand is a little different as I feel like I've really messed things up. Thank you for reading my earlier posts, I do appreciate that you spent time to do that.

I have read DB and DR, but actually practicing the principles has been a whole different story. My problem is that many of the principles are counter-intuitive (by design, I know), and I try something and if I don't see it working, I automatically revert to something else as I don't give it time and those are the ones that you rightfully are slamming me about above.

Regarding my 180s, I agree that I should do something out of the ordinary instead of just passive 180s. Perhaps I'll do something adventurous like you suggested.

As for remaining silent and listening to her, instead of validating, I just stayed silent and listened as I thought that was out of the ordinary as I would typically defend myself or make up an excuse for why I said what I said.

As for why she didn't join me in Paris, I asked her to come out for a few days and she mentioned that she was short on vacation days as she had recently taken a school trip to South America...and by that point, I am guessing that she didn't want much to do with me anyway.

I've read "how to improve your marriage without talking about it" and the description of why men get angry out of shame really really hit home with me (not that it is acceptable or justifiable), and I really wish I had realized this earlier because as she started withdrawing, my anger would increase instead of subside as I couldn't for the life of me figure out why she would be upset with me.

As far as the punitive actions such as saying "we can't be friends" or "fine, there's no reason to talk" was more to make her feel like this was really going to happen. I don't think it is anti-DB to lay out the expectation that we wouldn't be friends when it's said and done, but I know I could have laid it out differently.

All your points are very valid and appreciated, but I think I still have work to do on myself as I still feel threatened or hurt when she brings something up because in my mind I still think ("how can she say this stuff when there was an OM involved?") and I revert to saying something out of anger rather than sticking to DB principles.

I will keep the board posted before I do/say anything else that is not productive. It has hurt me a lot when I found out there was an OM and I know there were times when she lied to me. While I now realize that's pretty typical, it really hurt as despite a lot of what I have shared, I have tried to provide as best as I could (financially at least). I need to focus more than ever on validating and listening and I agree, quick.

Hopefully there will be something positive to share at some point in the near future.

Thank you again for your thoughts.