Another WAW

[anclost]

I don't know what that something is, I can't figure it out.

My W is coming home tonight from her trip to see her parents. I took her to the airport Wednesday night, and will pick her up tonight. She texted me enroute last week and then I didn't hear from her until today when she was at the airport leaving.

This has been the pattern over the last few months. She went to San Antonio in Nov, Seattle first of Dec, Utah over Xmas and back to TN this weekend. I take her to the airport, she usually texts, or maybe calls until she gets there and then minimal contact. While in Utah with our sons on the ski trip, she texted a little but never called. I asked via text if she was going to call over the weekend and she replied "what for"? So I learned my lesson, my expectations are nil now.

Is this normal? When I'm away and she is home alone, she texts me quite a bit. Last week when I flew to SDF, she texted if I had got there, WX was bad so she said stay dry,etc. Actually had a nice conversation via text.

She doesn't call much any more, mostly texting if she wants to contact me. Do I make much of this?

Sandi2, you made reference to an EA, do you think my W is having one? She has her own cell phone, I don't know who she talks to, and like a good DB'er I don't want to know. I did see her bill for last month and it show 2000 minutes of use. Very little of that was with me. It has always been in the back of my mind. I know she is talking to the shooting coach in TX because she tells me sometimes what she talks about. She also talks to his girlfriend, they have become friends.

Another interesting note is that all the friends she has right now that she corresponds with are people she has met since she asked for the D back in September (other than her college friend from Dallas). And most all are divorced or getting divorced. Any of her friends or co-workers she had prior to this summer, she generally blows off.

My W thinks it is okay to have male friends that she talks to, but she talks (or texts) to them at all hours of the night. When I found her texting under the covers last spring, I was upset at the deceit, not the fact that she was texting her shooting coach. She said i was too insecure and couldn't handle the fact that she had a male friend. I didn't think it seemed normal, and of course my initial respond was wrong, I looked at her cellphone records and saw that she was texting him 80 - 100 times a day. While she was at work.

She has since stopped talking to that particular shooting coach, and last I knew was talking to the one in TX. And both these men are either married or in a relationship. So am I the one who is insecure? Is there really an issue here. I know that if it was reversed she wouldn't stand for it. She always thinks I am texting or secretly calling someone. In fact she grabbed my phone back in November out of my hand to see who I was texting, of course it was work related to a male coworker but she still proceeded to throw the phone against the floor, it was unusable after that.

So is she having an EA? Would that explain her behavior? I just can't seem to figure out how someone who has texted me that she "abhors me, despises me, hates me etc"(I've got it all), why does she care so much what I'm doing?

Some nights she will sit between my legs and play a game on her phone while I rub her back etc. Yet she can totally ignore me for a weekend. This is what makes detaching so hard.

So if I have neglected my wife, meaning I worked to much, wasn't there for her through her for radiation treatments. All the things that led her love tank to be empty, going dark isn't the right DB technique as 25 said.

Do I need to show my wife somehow how I feel. How do you do that with out pursuing? Should I write her a letter?

As Sandi2 said, what is that thing she wants?

BTW, while I was typing this I had a 30 minute text conversation with my W as she was in the airport. She doesn't contact me at all the whole time she is at her parents, but once in the airport it is okay to contact me. Is it because she doesn't want anyone to know she still talks to me? Is it even important?

I'm really learning to manage my expectations, not ask questions and let her do her thing. But in all honesty, I feel like I've been a doormat at times. But I know that if I make an issue of it, it would just be counterproductive.

The being patient part is hard. I always respond in a positive manner, never argue with her, and am trying to stop making sense out of it. I have been reading about detaching, but again when you feel like the 180 is to give your wife the attention that she has wanted, that makes it more difficult.

Thanks for the replies, this forum is certainly a phenomenal asset to have!

Lost in Alaska

[sandi2]

So is she having an EA? Would that explain her behavior? I just can't seem to figure out how someone who has texted me that she "abhors me, despises me, hates me etc"(I've got it all), why does she care so much what I'm doing?

Of course she's having an EA! If something doesn't change, she will continue to bounce from man to man b/c she wants to feel special. She likes the emotional high she gets from the EA's. It makes no difference if the man has a girlfriend, married, or D with a dozen kids.

I don't believe the EA alone is why she behaves like she does, but it certainly plays a huge part. As I told you before, it sounds like she needs to see a therapist.

When she tells you she hates you, etc, what is your reaction? Maybe she's seeing how much you'll take before responding.

My W thinks it is okay to have male friends that she talks to, but she talks (or texts) to them at all hours of the night.

It may not be a popular item these days to say a person should not have friends of the opposite sex. But I think it is a wise person who doesn't have a friend of the opposite sex who isn't a friend of the spouse. When/if she's having conversations with him that exclude her H, that's not appropriate. Anytime it becomes a secret, or "private" then it's not appropriate. I think it's very sad that our society doesn't even know what is right or wrong in a MR anymore. Use to, a woman would never have thought about contacting a man that many times, especially if you're M, and especially if he's not your H's friend, and especially if you're on the job, and especially if you wanted to be considered descent! Somewhere with all the modern technology, that all seemed to go out the door, and now men are asking if that's normal b/c they can't decide.

So am I the one who is insecure? Is there really an issue here.

You're not insecure, and yes there is a huge issue here!

But in all honesty, I feel like I've been a doormat at times. But I know that if I make an issue of it, it would just be counterproductive.

Yes, I would agree that you've been like a doormat. There's just one way you get there, and that's being stepped on.

Look, I'm just going to say what I think here. I'm not a professional and I don't know that this would have positive results or not. But to me, she is trying to poke you hard enough to make you show some ACTION. She tries to make you mad. She tries to make you jealous. She tells you what's what. But she's not seeing her knight in shining armor.

Stop acting like a knot on a log and start speaking up and standing up to her. Be decisive! She disrespects you! How can you expect her to feel love, when she can wipe poop in your face and you never do anything about it?

She wants a man! She really wants you to be that man. Her behavior doesn't say that, and the only reason I have a clue is b/c I know how the minds of some women work. Maybe you need to watch some old black & white classic movies. Watch Clark Gable, Spencer Tracey, or Humphrey Bogart. They played strong male parts who walked off into the sunset with the girl.

If your W doesn't clearly know what the boundaries are in your M, then you need to let her know. Tell her how unattractive she is when she uses her mouth like a sewer. For once, stop letting her call all the shots. Let her TM you without you responding! Stop being so available all the time. When you're not there, she makes sure she knows where you are and what you're doing. Right? So what could you do to change that? Have you ever seen anything that a hen pecked to death? It's not attractive!

I think in the beginning, she was extremely insecure. Your behavior when you got drunk didn't help that problem. However, I think she holds that over your head now. She just might be that much of a controller. (Which could have started a long time ago) That would account for her keeping you under her thumb. I also wonder if she wants to make you move in some sort of direction....just so that she'll know you aren't dead.

If it were me, I would call her bluff. (That's not what MWD usually advises.) If it were me, I would let her know I wasn't putting up with her cr@p behavior any longer. The only thing is, you have to be prepared to back it up, and I don't know if you will. You are too scared that she'll leave. She keeps telling you all about her man in Dallas and how she's moving there. What if you packed her bag and handed it to her?

It's clear that what you're doing now, or have done, is not working. Find the man you lost. Be that man again. Don't make some half-a$$ attempt only to be pushed back down. Decide that you will be the best.....with or without her in your life. But you make the decision.....don't wait for her to make it for you.

[FaithnAK]

Greetings Neighbor,

Jack 3 Beans and I are both in Anchorage. Crappiest winter I've seen in 30 years. Hibernation mode is trying to hold me down. Haha.

You are getting some great advice here from some very experienced vets.

I'd be happy to meet you for a coffee sometime if you would like to talk. The 'Nice guy' book is a very good read and was instrumental in my transformation from pain to happy. I hope it helps you as much as it helped me.

Stay warm friend.

[25yearsmlc]

interesting that her men of choice are NOT available...

is that b/c they'll never be available and therefore they are safe, or b/c she's sure to get rejected by them?

I had a long post to you that got zapped yesterday. To sum up, aside from the great stuff Sandi & others have posted,

your wife has a batchit crazy temper. I'd point that out sometime. And the double standards but you must always be calm and then make your point and leave.

The MOST you can accomplish is getting her to THINK or reflect. She won't back down in the heat of the moment from what I can tell.

In my whole married life 30+ years, neither I nor anyone I know has thrown something...maybe h once early on. Don't recall why or if for sure, but he was sleep deprived.

The calmer person in an argument is the one with "the power". That's why talking calmly to your kids when they're losing it, usually helps more than yelling. Figure out a way to not be a doormat but without escalating

But if it does escalate b/c you stood up for yourself, so be it.

((( )))

[25yearsmlc]

ps Please answer those earlier questions about

your behavior while she had cancer

and why she felt your marriage was "roomie" like.

Was it THEN or right after her surgery? These are important matters. If she had reconstructive surgery or a mastectomy and suddenly the sex stopped, what do you think she felt like then?

What type of surgery did she have?

I asked a bunch of questions about this earlier, and you didn't answer.

what's up with that?

[anclost]

She was diagnosed with DCIS, very early stage breast cancer in the summer of 2006. SHe initially had a lumpectomy, but the margins were not clear. She had a mastectomy a few weeks later. Because of the unique nature of her cancer cells, radiation was recommended. She had reconstructive surgery along with the mastectomy. She then had 8 weeks of radiation treatment

We moved to ANC in the summer 2008. In the fall of 2010 she had a mastectomy on the other side, there was not any reoccurrence. She wanted to do it as a preventative measure, now will not have worry about breast cancer anymore.

With the first surgery, I was there for the operation and recovery, and went to the appointments with the surgeon. Her Mom and Dad were also there. She had a lot of pain during the recovery due to the chest expander. I also went to the initial appointment with the radiologist and oncologist.

When she started the radiation treatments, she said it was okay, I had to work and she could go on her own. Huge mistake on my part! I will always regret that.

For the second mastectomy here in ANC, I was the only one by her side. She wasn't talking to her Mom at the time and her Mom didn't call after the surgery. She also had reconstruction at the same time as the surgery. I took time of from work to take care of her, she recovered rapidly and was back at work in 7 days.

The sex didn't stop until after we moved here to ANC, the fall of 2008. Right after moving here, I don't recall the nature of the argument but she stated that for most of our marriage she felt that it was mercy sex on her part.

So I backed way off. That hurt. I certainly didn't want to initiate any intimacy after that. But of course that wasn't the right way to handle it. I should have asked why she felt that way. What could I do differently for her. But my pride got the best of me and I withdrew.

She made the same comment this Xmas when she sent me that stream of nasty tests.

The roommate comment was first made sometime in 2009, so for the last two years or so that was when she said she felt like we were roommates. We slept in the same bed, I would still scratch or rub her back when she wanted. We still kissed each other, said ILY etc. But she now says she was just going through the motions.

Of course I got defensive and said I didn't feel like roommates, I loved her and said she worked M-F and went to bed at 8:30 pm most nights. I didn't go to bed that early. Of course I would avoid any conflict, didn't address it head and crawled into my work.

Yes I can see how she must feel unattractive to me. I will state emphatically that I find her very attractive, she is very beautiful. It not the scars or surgery that has been an issue, it was because of her statement that I didn't feel comfortable approaching her. I didn't see how it would make her feel. My DB coach has talked to me at length about this and how she must have felt! I see that now.

So I feel responsible. That is what I'm struggling with. I do feel responsible for much of our marriages problems. I think that addressed your questions 25. I apologize for not responding to them, there was so much response from you and Sandi2 that it got lost in the shuffle.

Please know I appreciate the 2x4's (maybe they are 4x4's), I need them. I need to digest what you said earlier. Calling my wife's bluff is something that has been suggested to me by my close friends. They feel that to actually help my wife, I need to let her go.

I had a good conversation with my DB coach this morning. We discussed W's return from her parents and how that went. Of course I didn't fair well with her family this weekend. They think my wife should leave me, how did she stay this long etc.

So my DB coach asked me why would they say that. I explained how my relationship deteriorated with MIL due to her testament of our sons. It wasn't just me, my W had a huge problem with Mom due to our boys and the fact that her mom lied to her all the time. That is why she wasn't talking to her mom for the past year.

I explained to DB coach that it became easier to not go to MIL's when my W went because my W always felt stress due to her mom and I. This was mostly my wife's suggestion and I went along with it.

The conversation with DB coach highlighted the fact that again I was avoiding conflict and it made my wife feel alone and always explaining why I wasn't there. Maybe my wife's family felt that I wasn't fully committed to the marriage. Another 2x4! I hadn't looked at it that way before. She even reminded me that my wife stood up for me on several occasions.

So again, I am responsible for not being there for my wife when she needed me, much like the radiation treatment. DB coach said I should tell her that.

So there is a major 180 for me. Stop avoiding conflict. That will be a long process.

That is enough for now. I will think about some of what you wrote. I'm struggling with standing up to my wife, not being a doormat when I feel responsible for the state our our marriage. I have empathy for how my wife must feel.

Thank you for the replies. It is great advice.

Lost in Alaska

[25yearsmlc]

Dear Lost,

2 things....

1) here's an example of my h's conflict avoidance and what it lead to...

When we married, we married in the Catholic Church b/c 1) I'm Catholic and

2) H was not really into organized religion. His mother had raised him as a Russian Orthodox-but h never once attended mass when we dated -or since, so it's fair to say it was simply NOT important to him....

whereas I was into my faith.

BUT marrying in her church was damn important to his mother which HE DID NOT TELL ME....but miraculously, I decided on my own to combine the wedding ceremony and have a Russian Orthodox priest there too.

I thought it was damn nice of me. I felt good and loving about my choice.

I told my mil this and she seemed pleased.

When I called him, the Russian priest said my mil had arranged for HIM To do the WHOLE ceremony (no Catholic at all and not in my church).

Excuse me? I explained that there'd been a miscommunication. I was Catholic and wanted the sacrament in both faiths as they recognize them in both. The wedding was at my church but my priest had agreed to have another priest there and they could both engage in the communion and wedding mass....weirdly nice of my usually grumpy priest, btw.

The Russian guy was miffed and said he would not "merely" officiate with another priest. It was all or nothing for him....so I cancelled him and told h what happened.

I don't know what h told his mother. I was irate and weirded out. But I do KNOW THIS---& ONLY NOW..decades later...

in exchange for the "Catholic wedding", h promised his Russian relatives the kids would all be raised Russian Orthodox...

he never told me this!

So 5 years pass and our son is born and Russian relatives fly way out to see him. He's the first descendant of 5 Russians who escaped Stalin's purges and got to this country. MIL is the ONLY child to have survived so our children are "it" for h's side of the family.

I get how important their faith is to THEM...and their desire for the Russian part in the children to be remembered. Many sacrifices were made for h to survive...

As the baptism day approached, ALL the relatives left the day before....wtf?

H asked his mother (on speaker phone) why she and the rest were not coming to the baptism, and she point blank said "b/c it's Catholic"....

I was so hurt. I had never experienced overt bigotry in my life. And for such a happy occasion! WTH???

(BTW, not that it matters, but their religion and ours are quite close theologically, which makes it all the more stupid)

But h never told me that HE had made a promise when we married, which his mother probably thought I was breaking...


I learned this only a few years ago.

Her refusal to go to the baptism deeply wounded me - and our r was never the same...

the avoidance of conflict my h clung to, CAUSED so much more pain than honesty would have...

I helped her when she was terminally ill and never brought any of this up of course. I had let it go long before...

but if h had told me HIS promises (that the kids would be raised Orthodox as a trade off for the marriage being Catholic)

I'd have had the kids baptized in both! I would not have minded at all!
Isn't that ironic?

He ASSUMED I would be upset...and now I realize those deceased Russians probably blamed ME for not following through on a promise that I never knew about.

Yes, I have said to H,

"this is a huge example of how your fear of conflict was out of proportion-and even if it were reasonable, even if you thought it would upset me,

look how much worse it hurt, and how much MORE pain there was, b/c you didn't tell me what you had promised"

...and of course, he made the promises to please them, and avoid conflict there too....it was also a big pattern of his in the MLC. Several trips to Alaska he only told me about once he was there. Nice...

it's really tragic. Just wanted to share that.

2) But Anch, none of this conflict avoidance on your end, excuses your w's tantrums. Those are weird and unacceptable and frankly, mentally unhealthy.

Your avoidance of conflict allowed it to continue, but that's NOT the same as justifying her behavior NOW...

Yes you made mistakes. But her telling you that the sex was mercy sex was just cruel. I usually think someone who says that must be in real pain themselves, but I'm not positive.

Anyhow, Have you ever told her how much that hurt you?

It matters that she knows, b/c she may actually think you don't care if you satisfied her or not.

And you clearly did/do.

What we "know" is that being a doormat has not appeased her and isn't working and sukks for you.

So that approach has to be ditched. ANY NEW approach will meet resistance from her. Maybe it'll evolve but at first, she'll resist it.

Steel yourself...and know things MUST change b/c you don't have a lot to lose now by standing up for yourself in an uber confident CALM way.

No man should put up with what she's been tossing the past 2 years...regardless of the prior problems.

Own your part but hold her to what she's doing NOW...you can't accept it.

And yes, she needs help. Some of the things she's done just sound batchit crazy to me. Seriously...

I cannot imagine not pointing out the double standards or the wildly inappropriate tantrums, at least once...in a way or time when you know she hears it..but then leave the room b/c she'll go nuts before she realizes, "gee, I'm kind of nutty. Maybe I do need help".

[Jack_Three_Beans]

So there is a major 180 for me. Stop avoiding conflict. That will be a long process.

The 180 process never really stops.

Nice to meet you lost.

The avoiding conflict one is tough, because you become to firm in it and you become an asshat. Like you're spoiling for a fight.

[anclost]

Been very busy with work last two days. I have read and reread your comments 25. It has really made me contemplate what my course of action needs to be.

Will respond with a longer reply this weekend, as I'm off and my wife is working.

Interesting development today, she fired her L because he hasn't done anything with the filing. She turned in the paperwork to the L in November. She explained it to me today, she was quite exasperated. She is looking for another L, but she also stated, "Maybe I'll just move to Dallas and be separated without divorcing".

Funny, the whole time she was explaining this, she was nice - very. Like I was her best friend....

Really thinking over calling her bluff!

Jack_Three_Beans and FaithnAK; Thanks for the comments, nice to know someone else is experiencing this hellacious winter as well!

"God have mercy on the man who doubts what he is sure of"

Lost in Alaska

[25yearsmlc]

DO NOT CALL HER BLUFF


that's a great way to give an ultimatum, which is what it is.

DB goes against unltimatums

unless

1) you truly cannot manage another day of not knowing....

AND

2) you are prepared for the UNdesired reaction from her.


So if you corner her-- That means if she chooses to leave you and files from Texas (where the law may favor her more or less) or stays and gets another L there,

then you'll have pushed her into it...and never know what might have been, if you'd DBd some more.

Are you ready for that?