Enough with the lies - what is going on???

[imthemom]

Hi enough...I was reading your thread this morning and as you have heard and will hear, its truly crazy how every one of these men respond and behave the exact same way, as if they are on script that is handed out to them!!..
I think it took me about 2 months to finally get it and start detaching and only then did I begin to start getting a grip on what I was going through....I know its hard but from experience i can tell you the sooner the better. Im still not perfect at it but I dont think you ever get there. My H is still in the middle of his A and its true, nothing will change until they are over that, and nothing you do will sink in until they are. So you kinda have to ride it out i guess.

Im so sorry to see you going through this, its a painfull process but you will get a lot of advice from this board. Its a life saver!!!

[Oneeleven]

I'm not going to tell you to give up or not, only you can decide that.

But.... I just want to ask you, will you be able to trust him again, even if he comes back, hat in hand, tomorrow?

As a person who is dealing with a constantly lying spouse. I mean, lies about stuff that matters and stuff that has no merit. Then there are the lies to cover up the lies.

In my sitch, even if my spouse comes back from the Middle East with all the promises in the world, I really and truly won't be able to trust him. We would really need some serious work to be able to trust again.

I am just wondering how you feel *for yourself* on that?

[enough already]

Thanks imthemom...
so do i go along with the seperation and talking to lawyers and sorting out the house, etc? do i drag my heels...as he has done for 2 months?

[enough already]

HI Oneeleven,
i get asked this all the time and have thought about this in great lengths.

If H were to come back hat in hand and willing to work on this i feel that i would have to give him a chance - even to be confident in my own decision on whether i could trust him again. I honestly can't say right now that that trust will come back. I do know that it would take work - lots of hard work and i think only then would i be confident in making a decision on whether i could trust him again. i do know that alot would have to change. i know i'm not the same person i was in our relationship because of all of this and because the work i've put into bettering my self and fixing myself, both on my own and with a counsellor. If he were to take steps to change i think i could (at some point) trust him again.

[WenikiTiki]

I can't tell you what to do, except protect yourself. I don't think you have to go into the lawyers to file.

Understand that lawyers mostly do just want to do a divorce. Maybe go into a lawyer and just ask for an hour our 2 to sort out all your questions. Have all your questions written out. You do pay them by the hour. That is why they want a big retainer. So confused you will use up lots of hours and they will get paid. Find a lawyer to just work by the hour until you make a decision. You don't have to tell your H that part.

Hope this helps.

Wendy

[Accuray]

EA,

You are right that the conversation and behavior last night was not DB. That happens to all of us, don't beat yourself up. *However* you need to do a gut check and decide what you want going forward -- do you want a divorce, or do you want your H back?

Unfortunately you do need to decide that, and once you do, stick to a path. Bouncing back and forth will only make things worse. If you want to DB, you have to fully commit or it will have very little chance of success.

Right now you are looking to demonstrate to H how miserable he's making you, and what he's doing to you. You are trying to make him face consequences. That is a natural thing to do, but it will not work.

The absolute best thing I read when I was in your situation is that everything you do now needs to be measured against the yardstick of creating resentment. Whether you deserve it or not, H resents you right now. Here's what he resents you for:

-- He resents you for making him feel badly / guilty about the EA / PA that he wants to feel good about
-- He resents you for making him responsible for your happiness at a time that he doesn't want to provide it
-- He resents you for demanding that he face the consequences of his actions -- he doesn't want to on his own, so in his view, you are "making" him feel badly

He resents you, because you are making him feel badly (in his mind). Because you are making him feel badly, he wants to avoid you. When you pursue him, you make him run farther away.

Each step farther away that you chase him, you'll need to painfully regain later. One goal for now would be to not chase him any further.

Imagine that you have a 6 foot foam block between you. If you press in 2 feet, it's going to push him out 2 feet. As long as he doesn't move, the pressure keeps building. What happens if you move away 2 feet? The foam block falls on the floor. Now, he is free to move 2 feet back toward you without feeling any pressure from the block. Does that make sense?

What does that mean practically? If you can work on yourself, find your own happiness, and "act as if" you're not thinking about or worrying about what he's doing, then you make it "safe" for him to approach you. If you seem to be having fun and doing your own thing, he will be curious and will be interested in approaching you. You won't be making him feel badly anymore -- instead you'll have the promise of allowing him to share in the good times you are having without him. That's the impression you want to give.

You want to have plans right now. You want to be going out and having fun and not telling him what you're doing, when or why. Initially this will all be acting. You'll be obsessing about him. The act of being left is a rejection, and when we are rejected, we want to "belong" again with irrational passion and resolve. Know that is happening to you. It has less to do with him, and more to do with being left behind. That's extremely painful and unfortunately, even if he came back tomorrow he couldn't help you get over that -- you have to get over that by yourself with or without him.

If you want him back, you need to cease scolding, you need to completely drop asking him to face consequences. You need to stop demonstrating how sad he has made you. You need to pretend that what he's done doesn't matter. You can normalize it -- "everyone enjoys attention from members of the opposite sex. Everyone enjoys being made to feel special. We both allowed our relationship to get off track. I understand what I contributed to the situation, and I'm willing to do the work for my own benefit to make that better. I would like our marriage to work. My decision is to save this relationship. I can't force you make the same decision and I won't try. That choice is up to you". That's the sentiment he needs to understand IF you want to go the route of getting him back.

You also need to understand this: he may never apologize, and you need to make peace with that. You may never see remorse. That needs to be OK. We are trained by movies and television that the wayward spouse comes crawling back with tears in their eyes and offers a heartfelt apology. That doesn't happen in real life. In real life the wayward spouse feels self-righteous. They believe that their transgressions are your fault, and their OM/OW validates them and convinces them that they are a wonderful person, so you must be the evil one. You as the LBS will feel guilty -- at some point you may feel this was all your fault, that you drove him away. Those are normal feelings. The fact is that his actions are inexcusable, he knows at a deep level that what he is doing is wrong, but his brain is working in overdrive to build rationalizations and convince himself that he's ok. He needs to do that for his mental health and peace of mind. He will re-write history and paint you as a villain or a caricature of yourself to pull this off, and he will likely never, ever apologize OR face the consequences of his actions.

In that context, do you want him back?

Think long and hard about that, make your decision, and commit. There is no wrong answer, only an answer that is right for you.

Accuray

[enough already]

Thanks Accuray.

i have had a pretty sad few days and when i woke up this morning i felt like more of a new person. like today was the first day of the new me (and then i got in minor car accident...great....i'm ok just fender damage - and H was the first person who phoned me to see if i was ok). i do know that i 100% want him back. i felt that when i work up this morning i was ready to let him go and if he comes back its meant to be.

when he called me we had a cordial conversation about meeting up this weekend to talk finances etc. I think him moving out on his own is going to be the best thing to happen here. our last correspondence was via email today and i wanted to use it to put all the hostility behind us. I told him i don't want to talk about the relationship anymore and because i care for him so much i am ok with his decision to move on and out essentially. I did ask him to not hide behind emails and give me the respect of dealing with things in an adult matter. i also paved the way home as they say. in all of our previous conversations i have slammed the door shut pretty tight. but i told him thats not what i want. i told him that time will tell to what capacity i will be willing to let him back into my life. I also asked him to follow his heart and be true to his feeling whatever that means.

i feel like i have gotten everything out.....now i am working on me (seeing IC pretty intensively) and almost done reading DB and plan on committing 100% to it. I want him back and thats it.

please keep giving me support, whether that be harsh or supportive....but i feel in a much better place today...like i'm letting go....but i still have hope ...if that makes any sense

[Accuray]

Enough Already,

Expect a roller coaster. My IC told me that periods of deep hurting will come in waves. Over time they will become less frequent, they won't last as long when they hit, but the last thing to go will be the intensity. I can tell you that many mornings I woke up thinking that the worst was passed and I had turned over a new leaf, but something would "trigger" me, and I'd go back to feeling terrible. Healing takes time.

People come to this board for many reasons, to vent, to get advice, and sometimes just for support -- to remind you that this is not your fault. Sometimes when you want support and get harsh advice, it leaves you feeling worse. Don't be shy about letting us know you just want a pat on the back if that's what you need.

I can tell you that for me, I took great comfort from reading relationship books. It was very important for me to intellectually understand how this happened to me, and how I could at all costs prevent it from happening again in the future. As 25 says, I want to be a husband that only a fool would leave. If you make that your goal, then you know that no matter what happens with your H, you WILL be able to find happiness in a relationship. You will be able to find it because you're educated. You're no longer clinging to fairy tales and Hollywood myths about "true love". You know that relationships take work, run in cycles, and there are bad times even in good relationships.

The books might not be your thing, but whatever it is, try to find it. What can you do that will make you feel good about yourself, irresistibly attractive and self confident? Figure out what it is and do it.

When we're hurting, we want to stop hurting, and we want it to happen *now*! Unfortunately, getting your marriage back on track cannot be rushed, so you need to shift your perspective and prepare for a longer process.

Definitely read "The 5 Love Languages" if you have not, whatever happens going forward, that is excellent knowledge to have.

A few things to think about:

1) What were his historic complaints about you or the relationship? What are you doing to address them?

2) What are you doing that, to him, seems like a 180? If you used to be controlling, are you letting him drive? If you used to criticize, are you being supportive? The key with 180's is consistency. You have trained H how to communicate with you over the course of years. You now need to "train" him that things are different, and that takes repetition and consistency. Talking about it does nothing, it's not credible.

3) What are you doing to deal with your anger and frustration so that you don't direct it at H? Is the IC helping with that? Does exercising help? Find something that helps and do it.

Another thing to get your mind around is that you will have to do all the work yourself if you want H back. You cannot expect him to match your efforts, or to contribute at all, it's all on you. I felt like I had to put on a 100 lb backpack full of rocks every morning and walk around with a forced smile -- that's what it takes. It's very hard. I felt like saying "hey, W, I'm doing all this work, would it kill you to be nice to be by doing Y?" The fact is, I wasn't in a position to ask, and doing so would have set me back, so you need to learn to suck it up and do it yourself and that is a very hard thing to do.

We are reconciling now and things are going overall well. W still maintains that her affairs were not "wrong" and that she does not regret them. She told our MC that we're back together because of all the changes that I made. That drove me crazy (although I didn't say anything) because it once again denied her role in contributing to where we got. She doesn't feel she needs to do any work on herself or make any changes, because she convinced herself that she didn't do anything wrong when she cheated on me and asked me for divorce.

My job is to accept that and find peace with it, because I cannot change it, and I want my marriage to succeed. That's not easy, it continues to be a challenge, but I'm committed to it. I share this with you to give you a window into what might be in your future if you end up reconciling. There is a lot for you to come to terms with, and it is a difficult journey.

Accuray

[enough already]

Accuray,

I have to be honest with you, I really enjoy your posts. I get the pats on the back from friends and family telling me how strong i am yaddy yaddy and yes i admit i am sometimes suprising myself at how strong i have been through all of this, but i remind myself...what other choice do i have. To completely crumble or hide in my house until this all goes away just simply isn't an option. I know that this is going to be a long hard road whatever the outcome is. And yes some days all i want to do is hit fastforward to see what that outcome is, but thats just not going to happen. i know that this sadness and hard times and just starting and being truly happy again will take time but i will be happy again and i will love again...and i guess only time and the powers that be know who that will be, but i am focusing on loving myself again, which is one of my flaws that needs work.

I appreciate that you make me think critically about this situation and you don't sugar coat it. Thats what i need in looking at the disarray my life is in and in looking for the answers to these really tough questions.

i know more than ever i want my husband and thats it. I have made a commitment to myself to devote 100% to DB. I also sat down last night and wrote out some personal goals for myself...some as simple as trying one new thing every week (even if its as simple as a recipe). THis week - i'm going to hot yoga! I have also decided to make 2012 the fittest year of my life. I am a very active person and i want to devote my new found extra time to putting extra focus on this. I have also started my MBA in january and plan on aceing the courses i am doing (if you can believe it through this nightmare i found it in myself to actually study for and pass that GMAT).

I'm not an avid reader but i'm really trying...and i find these boards super helpful in picking up tidbits along the way. I have started a journal of helpful things i have picked up from this board that i can see will help me anywhere i am in life.

i take these 'things to think about' and make them a bit of an ongoing activity

1) What were his historic complaints about you or the relationship? What are you doing to address them?

this is something i work on with my IC as well. There hasn't been a whole lot of complaints from either of us through the course of our relationship...and maybe that in and of itself is a problem - not communicating these complaints. i know i would often suppress my fears and anxieties and know H would too. I believe over the course of the last 3 months that i'm not that person anymore and i also know that that takes ongoing work.

self confidence is another area that i need to work on as well, again working closely with my IC on this. my closest friend jokes with me about an old Saturday night life skit when we talk about this ( i have a sense of humor so i know where shes coming from and can laugh at this),,,she always says remember the "lowered expectations skit" where the character said the affirmations in every skit..."i'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and god darnit people like me" haha well it fits! haha

2) What are you doing that, to him, seems like a 180?

my first 180....letting him go without a fight. I've faught tooth and nail for the past 3 months for this relationship...knowing full well that it was pushing him away. We are meeting on saturday to talk about finances and that sort of thing and my plan is to keep it truly at that...no R talk, no anger, no sadness. Just being me...and getting this done. I think he's expecting the opposite.

my second 180...is the controlling thing. i've handled everything in this relationship, i'm letting him drive this process. He told me i seemed surprised that he spoke to a lawyer and i guess i was....he never takes initiative on stuff like this...then he throw at me....well you told me to do something....
so i'm just going to let it be....not push for movement and respond politely at what needs to be done. he asked me to do a few things to help him but i said no (politely).....that he has to do it.

my goal is whatever he throws at me over the next little bit is to pause before responding.....think about what i want to say....and reevaluate.

Like everything else i'm taking this one day at a time....yesterday i had a little bit of an awakening that i needed to let go, i felt very sad but i felt like it was a different type of sad...and today i feel firmer in that and i actually feel good.
i've been busy at work, went for a run at lunch, going to yoga tonight and meeting a friend for a drink after and i feel....well normal. Yes thoughts creep into my mind every now and then. I feel that i need to acknowledge them and reaffirm that i can't control his actions that i can only control my own. Today i am deciding to be ok with all of this.

[Accuray]

Good for you Enough Already,

It sounds like you're doing excellent GAL activities and getting yourself in a DB frame of mind!

There hasn't been a whole lot of complaints from either of us through the course of our relationship...and maybe that in and of itself is a problem - not communicating these complaints.

We had the same issue, we never argued and were both conflict avoiders. I would withdraw and quickly forget whatever the conflict was, like an easily-distracted 2 year old. My W would put it in the back seat and hold onto it forever until eventually she would explode. I read an article recently that said that couples that argue and fight often have stronger marriages -- you have to care enough to argue, and the "make up" period after an argument does a lot to strengthen your bonds. It also helps to establish you as 2 separate people, rather than a codependent pair.

While I may have given you harsh advice, please know that I know how you feel, it's a terrible place to be -- but you're not there alone, it happens every day, and it's not your fault!

Accuray