Too Little, Too late 3

[BklynMom]

What really helped me make it through the hardest times at the beginning, was just telling myself to act. Pretending I was in a movie.

Now that I have been in it a few months my calmness is genuine (that took months) but it the beginning I would just fake it. In my mind I keep repeating that I dont want to give him any satisfaction of thinking he is right that I do lose my cool

[purgatory]

Thanks Bklyn. I was really getting good at 'acting' around Christmas time- hadn't mastered it, but was getting better.

I know that I need to get back there, and I think I can do it quicker.... but this new "bomb" feels like I'm going through a second D.

Let me know what y'all think about this gem:

(a little background) OW's 16 year old D is my goddaughter (OW is my boys' godM too- I'm seriously questioning the values she will be displaying to my kids and hers.) She and I would spend 1:1 time at least once a week, if not more. My H had stepped up as the guy in her life when her dad starting the abuse on her. She always said we are her second parents- a closeness I have come to regret. But in any case, I still love and care about her as if she was my own- and it kills me to not be around her right now.

I texted D16 tonight to apologize for not being around lately. She said: "My mom told me what [H] said to her and that she hasn't made a decision. I understand why you can't be around right now"
WHY WOULD OW TELL HER DAUGHTER THIS??? I was disgusted that she chose to involve her D into this new sitch, and not even having a clear decision or path to take. Can we say confusing for her D??? I simply responded: "I'm sorry you had to find out. I love you sweetie. Please call/or text me if you ever need to talk." I could smack OW right now for being so childish as to use her 16 year old as a 'friend' to lean on- selfish much???

I can only imagine all the confusion that is about to come from all of our kids if H and OW decide to pursue this. I can't be there to ease the blow for her kids, but I can do it for my boys.

This whole thing makes me sick. I can't believe these 2 selfish, self-centered people are the same ones that I have loved and cared about for so many years.
I know that H is in crisis and OW is the easiest transition (a fact that 25 has helped me to realize) because she's a known entity. She's been a close friend and source of comfort through our troubles- so of course he's experienced things with her that he was missing with me. I really think its' cowardly of both of them to pick the path of least resistance.

I have had the bad thoughts that this could last for a long time because they already know each other and won't have to waste time with intimacies. But then I'm reminded, that neither of them have *lived* with each other- where the *true* person comes out. They've really only experienced the 'event' person: going to the beach, fishing, thanksgiving dinners, game nights... not the person who's cranky in the am and lays around on the couch not cleaning up after himself; and she's the one who is a jealous/untrusting person- who follows around like a puppy and doesn't speak her mind. Thinking about both of their 'negatives' gives me 'positive' thoughts about their R... a little evil of me, but it works.

Sometimes I'm shocked that I still want a M with this guy. But then I remember- that I don't love this 'alien' whose in crisis and being mean just because he can... i love the H that would make me a dozen origami roses for Valentines each year (partly because we were always broke early on, AND because he said they lasted forever- just like his love). I've actually thought about making one and leaving it somewhere for him to find this valentines... as a small reminder of the man he used to be (it could end up biting me in the @ss though.) I love the H that wore the T-shirt he proposed to me in, every year on our anniversary. I love the H that didn't sleep or eat during either of my labors- because: "if you have to suffer this much to bring my child in the world, I can suffer a little too." I love the H that took and entire week off of work to isolate me and be my nursemaid when I had swineflu while pregnant with our second son. He did and showed his love for me in so many different ways- I kick myself in the butt for not being able to step up to the plate when he told me he wasn't happy.

I really appreciate having this board to get out all the crazy thoughts- so that I don't loose my cool and take it out on either of them. I think I can keep my mouth shut more often in front of H (because I don't plan on ever seeing her again) as long as I can get them out somewhere... so sorry guys, you are the victims of my ranting and raving for now. I apologize in advance if I start to sound like a broken record.

Thanks for being my lifeline.

[25yearsmlc]

you don't sound like a broken record (yet) and your reply to your Godchild was...in a word, Godly.

Good for you. It's exactly what I would have said.

Don't expect the d to openly turn against her mom, and tell YOU

but she may confide in a friend, and say "WTF?!!"

Heck YES she'd be confused. And sooo disappointed in her mom. (I can't imagine) Oh, and considering what her father sounded like, she's batting 0 for 2 w/parents...real nice role models...

You could probably maintain contact with her in some FB or private way and never ever bring up POS or h. [i]But that may have to wait awhile.
[/i]

Hey sidenote--my h is an MD and says he's done the ASD surgeries (that is he does anesthesia for the surgeries,) and feels your odds are much better than you are hearing. Just saying that the modern surgeries for patch placement or defect repair is a lot safer than before. Maybe your info is old. Don't be hopeless about that please. You have plenty of years left here.

Get 2nd opinions if you need to - and yes you can do that in the military.

Take care of yourself, make new friends, GAL and hold your head high.

[purgatory]

I wanted to respond to this great post from 25, she gave me some insights and a little hope. Her original post is in red, my responses are purple.

There are some behavioral tips I'll post here that helped me when my mind was on the freeway and couldn't "take the damn exit ramp"...
you will need to take the exit soon so you can get to the "scenic overlook", take stock and NOT REACT - but make a "campaign plan" and implement it...
DB coaches are great for that, and if your IC isn't, ask her to be. You need "instructions" more or less.
My IC is pretty good about giving me a 'task list'... I have a rough time always sticking to it. I fall back into old habits and this makes me mad because those *habits* are what led to the break-up in the first place, so really don't need to give H anymore ammunition with our current sitch.

Purg, First, be brave & strong now or you won't learn what you have to learn in order to make it....but look at this with all the honesty and insight you can, if only just for a minute...take a breath & see how your h sees most of the past 6 years...and check your first post if you need to, but if you want to get a scorecard out for justices/injustices in the marriage, would you really come out far ahead? In his eyes, he has the high ground for now. [i]And for now, maybe he does. How can you change that? Change YOU...[/i]
[color:#6600CC]Nope. I have more negatives that positives right now. I never thought about the idea of him thinking he has the 'high ground'- through that filter, a lot of his words make more sense.

Per my Godsent DB coach
Hard lesson #1--it is NOT the spouses job to show their WAS the "consequences of their actions" or "teach them a lesson".
I've been guilty of thinking this ^^^. I wish I could afford to call a DB coach right now.

Aside from it looking punitive (which it is, and which you already know AND which backfires big time every time)

LIFE does this for us!
The WAS will learn the hard way if they choose a bad path & stay on it. They will face numerous explanations for how they met, and the KIDS WILL KNOW forever...and their r's w/their own children will never be what they could have been. YOU cannot be the one to tell them this, or predict it to your h, or you will be vilified and seen as the cause.
I really hope you're right about this. I have not been able to convince my self that he will ever feel guilty about explaining his choices.

instead, if you behave like the dignified woman who has been punched in the stomach but STILL picks herself up, dusts herself off, & puts her kids ahead of her pride without losing her self respect, YOU will prevail over time.
I wish I could accept how LONG of time this will actually take. In another post (the WAW to LBS) She said how "6 months of changes and being a better you, doesn't make up for all the years of rejections and hurt." I think I fall into this category- I expect that he will be pleased that I made such a quick turn around and take me back... not gonna happen.


TIPS for congitive behavior therapy (aka 25's "mind control" secrets)
1) stop sign for evil thoughts....Put it in your head that you have to STOP this, and be discplined enough to stop it, if only for a few minutes at a time.I try to do this when I have a task/moment with the kids. AS soon as I'm not distracted, the thoughts creep back in... I want to be able to stop it for longer periods of time.

The evil thoughts of revenge do not help your cause. Granted, there are LBSers who LOVE exploring their anger & they would say, "it's the JUSTICE of it all!" and "but I'm RIGHT and they are wrong!!..." but they forget that this is not about being right. It's about being happy Revenge won't help your cause or even give you peace. It only appeals to your anger and that's NOT helping you, your body, your children or your m.
I will need to read this paragraph over and over until it's tattooed on my brain.

2) Every day in the shower or wherever you can gain some privacy, say out loud "God, I turn my pain and anger over to you. I lay this marriage in your hands"...
Some days, I said this literally 100 times, esp right before h would call. It helped calm me and thinking it, saying it and hearing it somehow make it sink in...
The shower has been my only solace. It's the only place that no one bothers me and I can block out the sounds of my house. I usually try to get all my crying out in there, so H can't hear me and I won't have the evidence of mascara running down my face.

3) come up with other helpful mantras and do them as well. Such as"I only control now and 'from this day forward'. Help me be my best NOW"... I'd put some self help books or some of Marianne Williamson's books on my IPOD and would go on LONG walks (aka "25's Fury Marches") b/c she has written a lot on "Handling Fear & Anger" and though she's new agey for some, for ME she helped with this exact issue. HOW to let go and begin healing and forgiving...
I'll look her up and give it a try- I'm willing to try ANYTHING at this point!

Also had playlists for grief so sometimes I could let go and cry hard about it but only in a safe place.
I have that same kind of playlist too... I listen to it in the shower.


First of all- it IS mostly a positive that he's sharing these things, overrall, as much as it sukks to hear. Second, your reaction MATTERS so don't lose it or rant. I LOVE that he has noticed.
[color:#6600CC]He's mentioned and noticed a lot of my changes. He's even said: "I like this [purg] much better." I said: "I like her too." It kills me inside to know that even with all of his recognition, it doesn't change his mind.

Adopt the two phrases that validate, without escalating, and which show change on YOUR End...
plus - no offense--but your memory is either conveniently self serving when it comes to forgetting your outbursts AND OR
you had some untreated diagnosis that YOU WILL GET treatment for, so it will NOT keep happening, and he can trust that will change your behavior & it will be credible....make sense?
Makes complete sense. I have not forgotten what I did to get into this sitch, in fact, I've never tried to justify or make excuses when he brings things up. I've only recently become aware of my fugue states (and they haven't happened in a long time and will be fixed with my heart/lung issues. My doctor's and C have worked together to identify and help me.) I have come to accept that his version of our history, is different that my version... but it's *his* that I need to address.

1) so for the marital revisions that surprise you, you say
"H, I don't recall it that way (or at all) but I'm so sorry you were hurt/upset."
2) for the memories he brings up that are valid, the fights or the times he was hurt that you recall or believe, or concede are possible, say
"Sorry H, if I could do it all over again, there are lots of things I'd do differently."
I've said similar things to him, but I do good when I have a 'script' to follow- I will try to learn these phrases and use them.

You are very welcome. I had the vital help of some peeps on this board who remain here btw, from time to time. THey guided me through this and gave me hope.
Why do I believe there is hope in your sitch? (yes I do believe that)
WHAT?? REALLY?? I'm surprised that you can see this 'working out'... I'll lean on your hopes for now.

B/c as the mother of his children, the choice to be with OW (or "DIP OP" or aka POS bf) means that he must justify it often.
Is this what he's doing when he brings up things like:"I've felt alone for 6 years, I'm done with that." "If I don't have to be alone, I won't be" "I can't get past all the hurt, and there is no way we will ever be more than friends." ???

IF your changes are real and lasting, and not merely tactics to get him back,[/b]
that gets to be VERY difficult to sustain. Essentially he'll have to tell himself
"So what if she's great and all I ever wanted her to be, now, and so what if the kids miss her and she misses them and I broke up my family? I deserve HAPPINESS!!" --and that gets harder to say out loud to others and to yourself...it just does.
I really hope it does. I can't ever imagine H having a hard time saying these things to himself or others.... think it will take years? Months? Will there be anyway that being in AFG (away from me and OW) will help to clarify things for him? I feel that he'll just miss her because of the 'fantasy' that he will be able to create in his mind about their R.

It begins to sound hollow and shallow and pretty damn selfish.
But know that just as that WAW felt about her h's "new outlook", for now, he does not believe your changes are lasting, but that they are tactics.
Only consistent change + sufficient time = Him believing the changes are real.
I wish we could put some numbers in that ^^^^ equation. But I know that no one has the crystal ball to know exactly how long this will take.

Whenever you lash out at him or rant, you confirm that it's just a tactic. When you disparage Dip Op, you put him in the position of having to defend her. Bad idea.
I did that the day I found out about her feelings. And yes he did defend her... which made me even more angry. It was a backslide that I immediately regretted. Can I recover his impression?

I would probably never mention her...seriously, I would not at this time, view her as anything but a "less than me, not worthy of mentioning"
I LOVE this! Yes! She isn't worth the breath that it would take to talk about her.

I don't see her having the fortitude of being newly single and not exploring other men...(heck, in her shoes - there's no way I would not date if I just got my freedom back.)
I think that's why she said: "I don't want to date right now, but in the future I could see that with [H]." She's a coward who can't even try to learn someone new- she has to jump to the easy target who she's already gotten to know as a friend. Coward! It's pathetic how the first guy who says he has an interest in her, she jumps on it. She needs to be validated ALL THE TIME and H said the 'magic words' to her.

She's thinking "yeah you're a great guy but um, you want me to wait around for you for a YEAR while you are sep from your family--and w who seems to be all groovy and calm now--b/c you SAY you are sure you want out, & you think you want to have a real r with me later on - but in the meantime I get to be lonely b/c I just lost my fake bff and now I can't date?? Gee that sounds appealing.
(And with her "character", I think he'll be surprised at how bad betrayal feels...)
OW is very insecure. She's never stood on her own two feet- always had a man to take care of her. She went from her family home, into a M at 19 with her H and has never worked outside the home. I'm afraid that she would sit around waiting for him, instead of putting herself out into the dating world- because she's needy. I really hope I'm wrong. But in his absence, I won't be there to be a friend to spend time with.... hopefully she will feel lonely.

Plus, when he contacts you and the kids, while I'd be scarce at first, b/c it's easier to notice changes when there is some space/time apart (as opposed to daily contact which I happen to think is a slower way to show changes b/c it's harder to create mystery) then I'd reveal the new you in pieces.
How do I 'reveal' over emails, phone or skype??

Part of that is going to be the "UBER ZEN Purg" who does NOT lose her cool or lash out b/c hey, she's different now...she has evolved, and changed. She has all the great attractive traits that he fell in love with, but with a maturity and compassion and serenity she may have lacked at times before.I REALLY WANT to be this person again. When he met me, I was top of my class in college, had a huge social life... he had to pursue me for 3 weeks before I even agreed to have a date! I don't know which magic combination of traits 'grabbed' him.... but I want to be that person again- because I felt REALLY GOOD about myself back then.

And I'd create mystery big time...if he brings up working to support yourself, you act as if you assumed that all along and you are looking forward to getting back out there and meeting NEW PEOPLE...
I have a job interview today! When I mentioned it to H, he was surprised because he didn't even know I had put in an application.

don't assume for a minute that he won't have regrets if he thinks, "Hey purg is all calm and appealing now and i went thru hell with her, just so she can NOW be all I wanted with some other guy?" But if you rant/rave, he'll feel relief to be gone and totally validated in his choice to leave.
I have a hard time seeing that he would ever think this, but hey, I'll take your word because you've been there before. He's actually said: "I'm glad you've made changes so the next guy won't have to go through what I did." (It was like a slap across my face!)

Finally, I love this analogy.
Say someone asked you "What if your life were a novel? Who is writing yours? How do you want the next chapter to go?"
What are your answers? So, be the author of your life. Don't let someone else write in your book with their actions or words. Don't give away your power.
A great analogy to keep in mind for the whole DB process!

For now, and "from this day forward", be your best self.
I think there's a good reason those words are in our marriage vows.
I wish that H would think about some of those other vows: for better or worse

[Oneeleven]

How do I 'reveal' over emails, phone or skype??
----------------------

You CAN do this! I did!! When we first returned from our horrible trip, I was DBing like no-ones business and it was all in this manner. Minus phone calls actually as P stopped phoning me a long time ago.

Make your emails shorter, use less explanations, be busy (or pretend to be if need be - this is EASY long distance!) If you're FB users, make sure to update your page with happy news BEFORE you tell him. IE: a simple status update of "GOT THE JOB!!!" and then wait for him to see it and then ask about it. No sappy emails, no wistful emails. Skype, WHEN you're available (don't always be!! Keep your Skype OFF!) make sure to look good, (not street walker good, but GOOD!) Make sure to update him on stuff you did on your own that you NORMALLY would have sought his help/opinion for. IE: something around the house, a decision about the kids. And make sure to give him an update like... XYZ happened, I did ABC to fix it. It turned out great! And only tell him about it once solved. DOn't try and stay bonded by asking his opinion on stuff (super tempting... I know!!!) Emails, phone calls, Skype, don't always be available. When receiving contact from him, if possible, fully digest what he says and don't respond for a while. And in the case (if there is the case..) that he sends you an email that has no open-ended questions to you. DON'T ANSWER AT ALL. Leave the ball in his court. Make sure you're super nice, but not overly, and smile alot. Re: Skype. Try to get it so that he approaches you for a Skype 'date' rather than just being online.

The above was working REALLY well for me. I blew it by finding all the online dating activities and ruining all my DBing success. DON'T falter!


One thing I've noticed, when you're long distance, the smallest amount of contact kind of 'fills your tank' and makes you feel good, validated. Well when DBing long distance, I found (in my case) that the more contact I received, the EASIER it was to stay semi-detached. Kind of like working out, once you start seeing the results, your WAY more motivated to work out more!

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I really hope it does. I can't ever imagine H having a hard time saying these things to himself or others.... think it will take years? Months? Will there be anyway that being in AFG (away from me and OW) will help to clarify things for him? I feel that he'll just miss her because of the 'fantasy' that he will be able to create in his mind about their R.
------
I don't know your H, but I think it will be quite the opposite. He may fantasize but A-Stan will most likely bring reality crashing down over his head like a good 2x4 should, at an much quicker pace.

--------------------------------------------------------------


He's actually said: "I'm glad you've made changes so the next guy won't have to go through what I did." (It was like a slap across my face!)

----

Ugg... Mine did too. And he also said he was so relieved I we were breaking up amicably (back in Thailand when I told him I didn't want to continue as we were). Me at this point having no idea he was on dating sites and had already mentally checked-out of our R.

[25yearsmlc]

I told MY h that I was glad he was finally going to be a great h...for his next w.

I meant it but I was also resentful of it. So, there's that.

Can't give you a timeline but they say a month of consistent change for every year of marriage so by the time he leaves, your job is to have shown consistent change in YOU and how you react to upsetting news--for him to believe that maybe your changes are real.

And Something WILL be upsetting between now and then, like finding out his assignment on an email--(don't know if this was your sitch or one11's, but you cannot make an issue of something like that.) Prepare yourself for some Mother Teresa patience...

oh and here are other DB tips I got from my Godsent coach.

1) Lose the anger, at least in front of him

2) Keep the Road Home, Paved & Smooth

don't make it harder for him to come home than it already would be...

3) Applaud loudly for the 1% of positives he does...

(sometimes this is hard, like Mother Teresa hard - but it SO helps)

4) GAL and learn to Detach

Smack yourself in the head BEFORE you lose your temper in front of this man or POS OP...just lose the anger--put it somewhere else if you can't "lose it".

Here's something that helped me in a lot of ways.

H was due to leave in May to go to the tundra without US so to me that would end the marriage...period.

But he had a conference in Feb in Palm Springs and asked us all to go. I balked. I thought it would be awkward and weird and that

it would somehow reward him for leaving soon by pretending all was well.
No way!! I was against it.


Thankfully my DB coach slapped me sober with this question--"if it's the last vacation you'll have together, why not make it wonderful for your kids AND give him something to miss?"

Oh...that...

So for four days, I decided to shelve all my pain and anger (said my mantras hourly)

and NOT be negative.

For FOUR DAYS I would not view ANYTHING H did in a negative light.

I'd switch it to positive or at worst, neutralize it.

This meant that Instead of seeing h as a nerd who monopolizes conversation in the car ride, I chose to see him as a well educated dad teaching his kids.
Sounds simple and it is but we rarely do this. INstead we focus on a negative spin and then want to correct it. Lesson learned. That's not loving. (Also not fun)


There were times bad fears or anger would creep or jump back in, but I'd tell myself "25, you can be angry LATER!" and I'm sorry to admit that thought comforted me...
at least it kept my anger hidden or shelved. Like I said, I just had to do it for four days...that's about 100 hours, and some of that is sleeping. It is doable.

It was not easy at first, and I did the "Stop Sign" a lot.

But we were in a new place and there were no reminders of our situation and somehow it kind of worked partially Within 30 hours. The new me behaved for a day and a half UBER ZEN LIKE and h began to noticably relax. He touched my hand more and complimented me. We both smiled as did the kids.

We went horseback riding and I could tell the girls were SO relieved there was no tension. I knew that at the very least, they'd have good memories. WORTH IT!!

I determined by the 2nd day that there was NO WAY I'd be the one to blow it and I'd go the whole time. You could have called me Mother Teresa 25 for those 4 days. Saw comedies, went hiking, hugged the kids more and listened for their wishes about what to do next, etc.

Had a blast....and h was kinder and more attentive to all of us.

I think I had gotten a glimpse of what forgiveness looks like.

I wanted his last memories of us to be good ones no matter what else, and I wanted the girls to remember us as once being a happy family.

I figured h had to miss something - and no one misses an angry shrew, so I contrasted those images he had of my "disappointed wife" face, with the "new 25"...and it helped us a lot.

Hope this helps.

[purgatory]

111- Thanks for the tips!

I will HAVE to skype with hims for the kids, but I can make myself 'unavailable' and step aside while he talks with the kids.

I do have one concern about one of your suggestions: Making choices on my own and just telling him about it. *This* was a symptom of our break-up: I was *too* independent (while he was home and deployed.) He always said that he felt like I didn't need him at all in my life because I never asked his opinion nor asked for help. I totally understand your reasoning for these actions- but I think it would be another reminder to my H of why he left me. I will not be completely needy of him, but I do want to show him that I value his opinion and he is still needed in my life for our kids and our house- this is a 180 for me.

I also don't want to run the risk of OW being the 'needy' one (since she already is.)
H thrives on being a problem solver- I don't want her to be the only one asking him for help... because that just encourages his decision to leave me.
[I KNOW that I shouldn't allow projections/assumptions about them to drive my actions]

[25yearsmlc]

I agree-180s vary for the couple.

Sounds as if you need to let him feel he is the leader of the family and you are his helpmate...reliable and strong, but that he is in a position of honor in your eyes...

not "above" you but cherished BY you..

make sense?

[25yearsmlc]

What really helped me make it through the hardest times at the beginning, was just telling myself to act. Pretending I was in a movie.

Now that I have been in it a few months my calmness is genuine (that took months) but it the beginning I would just fake it. In my mind I keep repeating that I dont want to give him any satisfaction of thinking he is right that I do lose my cool

There should be an Academy Awards Night for DBers...but then again, some of the WASs would win

for only seeming to be happy and "acting happy" but secretly "being miserable FOR YEARS" and never showing it...amazing. So many of them missed their calling.

[Oneeleven]

111- Thanks for the tips!

I will HAVE to skype with hims for the kids, but I can make myself 'unavailable' and step aside while he talks with the kids.

I do have one concern about one of your suggestions: Making choices on my own and just telling him about it. *This* was a symptom of our break-up: I was *too* independent (while he was home and deployed.) He always said that he felt like I didn't need him at all in my life because I never asked his opinion nor asked for help. I totally understand your reasoning for these actions- but I think it would be another reminder to my H of why he left me. I will not be completely needy of him, but I do want to show him that I value his opinion and he is still needed in my life for our kids and our house- this is a 180 for me.

I also don't want to run the risk of OW being the 'needy' one (since she already is.)
H thrives on being a problem solver- I don't want her to be the only one asking him for help... because that just encourages his decision to leave me.
[I KNOW that I shouldn't allow projections/assumptions about them to drive my actions]

oh my gosh yes, then of course do the 180 for YOU guys. Above was OUR 180. Sorry, I should have put some sort of disclaimer on that. And I hope you can get in that fine line of showing him he is valued/needed WITHOUT being needy. THATS darn tricky!!