On the verge, have I caught this thing?

[3am]

Sandi2:

EA/PA: No. Flirting yes on both sides I'm sure. I've never texted or extended anything beyond this.

Counseling: W didn't believe I could change

Fall into my arms: I know there's all the relationship to rebuild but surely she will be even more in need of emotional and physical reassurance if we go through reconciliation. Holding her at the moment would be hard.

Admit PA: They are two evils, sticking your head in the sand is painful, this is unbearable but had to be done. I knew it would be hard, is this what she's been feeling when I've been out at nights in the past? OMG what did I do to her.

cat04:

I can't put my kids through this pain and I still love her. I don't see that I have an option. We've both had a specific dream about each other in the past. In hers she woke up in bed rolled over to hug me, and thought that's right he's not with me anymore.

In mine we're at the end, old gray haired in bed. I stroke her hair, we look at each other knowingly, and I say, 'this is the last night we dream honey.'

Her dream has come true this morning. I still hang to a chance that mine may still be able to come true too.

[25yearsmlc]

Hi 3,

I'm hopeful for your sitch b/c I think the question "why couldn't you be like this before?" means she wanted THIS from you

and now you are giving it.

Do that more and negate her reasons for wanting to leave.

I don't recall if you have children together. They are a big bond but you can make it back without them.

I am NOT a proponent of snooping (neither is this site) except in one circumstance and one only.

If you KNEW you'd end the m for a PA, then I'd say snoop and file.


Thing is, your focus is, imo, wrongly placed there. Regardless of whether it's a physical affair, YOUR behavior helped get you here and the other man ("OM") is simply a symptom of that.

Change YOU and don't worry about OM....BE the better choice.

Also I think GAL activities that involve meeting new people help the most b/c they keep you from obsessing which something tells me you do a lot of.

PLEASE begin to see the harm and damage in snooping. She will stop trusting YOU if you keep that up--

plus it means you are not working on YOU so much as staring at another "cause" of the problems - which is an exit strategy for you....not pro marriage.

I am troubled by your wanting "back up plans" so fast and that you are so close to wanting to leave and date On one hand but

"still in love" on the other hand.

Are you sure you want HER, as opposed to simply not wanting to lose her to OM?

Here is a post from a hurt WAW (a walk away wife to her h) you might find helpful or insightful...

FYI***(S = spouse or son, so check context. R = relationship and m=marriage. H is husband and W is wife and LBS is left behind spouse)***

Read it and Figure out what, if anything, applies to your situation and go from there.

Good luck and keep posting!!

FROM A WAW TO A LBS HUSBAND WHO HAS "CHANGED" BUT WONDERS WHY HIS WAW HAS NOT COME HOME YET, & HOW SHE CAN BE AT ALL INTERESTED IN OM….

"When I read your interactions with your wife, I could so easily identify with your wife's feelings/words/sentiments. I have been in her position in my M. I was the ignored, the devalued, the one who was treated as less than. I even got chills when she talked about the FB issues, because I've been there and done that, bought the "t-shirt". Of course, my H went a step further and cheated, then left, adding an extra crunchy layer of goodness to my sitch.

One of the things that I have tried my hardest not to do, is not to engage with another man. Not just because of my marriage vows, but because I knew that when I truly engaged in any type of R with another man, it would make it that much harder to ever reconcile with my H.

Because being treated differently (better) than the way he treated me would lessen him so much in my eyes. So, I can see where your W is coming from.

When you've been mistreated to the point where you actually let go of your R enough to let another person into your heart or bed or whatever, it takes a boatload of work to get back on a page where you're recommitted to being with your S - and those uncertainties that she's expressed to you, I don't know if you truly, truly fathom how deep they run.

Six months of getting back on a page where you treat her the way that any wife should be treated, does not even scratch the surface of the years, the intrinsic devaluing that occurs when you're systematically mistreated for such a stretch of time. And I promise you that while you have recommitted and worked for 6 months, your W has simply been trying to get to a point where she can even buy into the changes, where she can even think that you might have changed and not scoff at the thought.

Because when you build up hope again and again and again in your H and he crushes it again and again and again, you develop a thick skin, a protective doubt, a conditioned response to even the slightest, grainiest seed of hope.

You are taught that when you hope, you will be disappointed. When you try, you will fail. You are taught that you will never be what he wants and it is hard to shake what you have come to believe is reality.

And for the changes that you've made to have come only when she walked away and OM became competition, I can definitely see how she can doubly doubt that you truly want to be in a Marriage with her, and not just to win.

Even you today say that you are not sure that you don't just want to win.

Step 1 - figure that sh!t out ASAP. Because if you actually do manage to convince her that you really do want her and really have recommitted to her BUT you actually just want to win, you'll put her through hell.
___________

[cat04]

In my opinion telling the OM's wife is morally imperative. By not informing her you are keeping a secret from her and are actively protecting the affair. OMW deserves to know what is happening to her life and to make her own choices accordingly. You telling her the truth won't hurt her, her husband's actions have already done that.

And as aside, in my experience the vast majority of the time when caught an OM will run back to his wife and cutout without a second thought his "side action", which happens to be your wife. Conversely, I have observed that this is not true of most WW. Some will drop their affair when caught, but most have developed a strong emotional bond to their affair partner and will only consider stopping an affair when they become overwhelmed with negative consequences. Moving out is a negative consequence, but moving out temporarily to give hubby some space and using this as an opportunity for more time with OM is definitely not a negative consequence.

Fade,

I am going to disagree with everything that you have said here.

There is no moral obligation to hurt another human being.

3am does not know her and does not need to involve himself in her M. What he needs to worry about is his own.

While the actions of a woman's H are what have caused the pain, when a perfect stranger fills her in on the gory details, more than likely, that stranger will become the bad guy.

I will repeat, if she is meant to find out, she will find out. With no help needed from 3am.

Additionally, if 3am feels that he needs some time apart from his W to process his feelings, then he should take it, without people trying to make him feel like he is giving her a pass to cheat.

Because he isn't. And he is also not in a position that he wants to become punisher to his W...

Although that sounds like that may be what you are suggesting...

I hope I am mistaken...

[25yearsmlc]

Fade,

have you read the DB or Div Remedy books? NOWHERE is the telling of the OPs family listed as an option.

It's punitive and vindictive, no matter if you say it's under the guise of "honesty" and a feigned attempt at "morality". To me that's self righteous nonsense and you do not understand DB.

You are making it about "being right" and not about being happy. And you are making yourself the arbiter of what is right as well.

3, please, at least read the DB books first before you do something you will regret.

Understand the philosophy underlying this site. Know it first, then design a campaign for your marriage if that is what you want (and i sense ambivalence on your end that has nothing to do with whether there was a PA or not but perhaps, b/cyou want an excuse to bail??)


Think before you act.

[25yearsmlc]

How bad, I just realised this. I used to go out drinking after work pretty regularly. There were many nights where W would pick me up from the train station at midnight smashed. She never asked where I'd been or what I was doing, she'd just come and get me. I just saw it as relieving the stress of the week, the kids would see me in this state sometimes. This went on for a long time, I loved her for being there for me, she never said what it was doing to her. I never cheated on her. I broke that cycle just over a year ago.

I'm sorry for your pain, I really am. I am grateful you are looking inward b/c that's where the real journey is.

"how bad?" You said you were never violent...which I'm sure you realize is scraping the bottom for behavioral standards..llike saying you're not a rapist.

But I see that your frequent fighting and calling her an idiot somehow didn't register to you as "that bad"...and only now do the numerous nights you wanted to "relieve stress" in a bar, come to mind. What cycle did you break a year ago?

Be brave and look deep within. As she can learn to forgive you, you can learn to forgive her, and yourself...

but forgiveness a process and a learned skill most of us never saw growing up.

Good luck

[onyourside2]

hello 3am

i'm glad you have found this website and are empowering yourself with tools you will need for this challenging time.

i would say you can expect a lot of intense and mixed feelings on both your parts over the next weeks and months. try very hard not to over-react to any given day or event as this can become crazy-making. the more important thing is to look for the longer term trend line and the small changes she will inevitably make in response to some of the things you learn here.

you have two things going in your favor if you proceed with DB principles and actions. first, most of these PAs that originate within a marriage expire fairly quickly. they reach peak infatuation very quickly and then they start losing their luster as the other guy eventually is seen as the mere mortal he is. secondly, you can make yourself a more appealing partner, although it usually takes a while to build and practice these skills. so, his stock is probably already in a decline and yours either is or soon will be on the rise. the lines will eventually cross.

i would say your single most important task at this point is to learn not to over-pursue a resolution of her affair with the other guy and a reparation of your own relationship. trust me when i say, most people tend to do this and it often backfires. you feel panic-stricken and desperate and you want to grab and hold on for dear life. it's understandable and i've done it, too.

if she strongly and consistently shows an interest in repair activities, meet but don't exceed her level of interest. the reason i say strongly and consistently is that this is a time when you are likely to get a lot of mixed signals and you need to know her stance is consistent and sustainable. otherwise, you are at risk for over-pursuit and emotional harm to yourself.

i wish you the best. you have a lot of supporters here and they all want you to succeed.

onyourside2

[3am]

Thanks again everyone, this is so helpful.

We had our session yesterday, the PA was exposed. W stayed at her parents last night, I at home with two teens, so we could think separately. W came home the next morning late, had been to see OM at work and tell him it's over. Said she was caught at a vulnerable moment, it was a fantasy world, she wanted to get on with reparing things and he needed to go to his W and do the same. She said they both agreed it was destroying their marriages. We've had a counseling session and she was pretty matter of fact about not wanting the EA/PA anymore and is carrying fears exactly like the WAW in 25yearsmics post.

Around that bad, oh yeah the verbal stuff was worse than that bad and then I realized I had further stuff on top of that. I was a friendly drunk, but what would have added to the problem would have been my amorous compliments to W that should have been being given in a sober state. I got away from the drinking environment about 18 months ago when I decided to stop hanging around with that group of friends. This behaviour is finished.

We're at home together now talking, we've been discussing how OM will still pursue her, and she's been pretty open is asking how to handle that. He's in a different department, she's going to have someone else deal with him from a business perspective, and be blunt with him about leaving her alone now. She loves her job and friends there and quitting would be devastating and isolating for her so I'm just waiting to get the concerns I have around this up in our next counseling session. Trying not to overpursue resolution and she's off work this week anyway.

Neither of us have decided that it can work for sure. I have trust issues and potentially SL going forward, she doesn't know if she can buy into my changes. But at least she seems to be in a state where she can't work it out with the EA/PA going and what's to get help to understand herself and us.

She raised the issue of the OPs Wife and is feeling guilt over what she's done to her. I've said we need to leave that and work on us, she agrees.

I've read the first chapter of DR but my books haven't arrived yet, that will take a few more days.

[Mach1]

3....

What does this coming back together look like for you ?

When you envision the two of you reconnecting, what does that look like ?

I think you have some issues that you have glossed over fairly well, that you may have to address before that can happen.

Have you thought about some counseling ???

Just for you ???

It's easy to blame your spouse for our short-comings.

Much easier to give them that power over YOUR decisions, and poor choices.

The bottom line is, that WE are responsible for ourselves. And we cannot get caught up in the blame game. The past is the past, and we should always move forward. Yet understanding the past, and our mistakes through our past, is what allows us to have a road map toward our future.

Your past is the only thing defined by your past..

Your future is still unwritten...

What do you want that to look like ???




You STILL haven't answered one simple question that I asked you in my first post to you...

At least not a clear one, it was more of a conditional response...



Are you able to forgive?

Without YOUR answer, you will not be able to move forward.

That forgiveness encapsulates the entire relationship though.

Forgiveness is a gift that you give yourself.

To be able to do that, you must first identify YOUR role in the way the marriage was in the past.

So far, you have placed a condition on whether or not you could forgive her....

What conditions do you place on yourself for forgiveness ????



I know you are waiting for the books to arrive...

Not an excuse. Read others threads, read the archives, post to others and build some relationships here.

Some of the relationships you build here, will last a lifetime..

We are all in this together...alone

[onyourside2]

good morning 3am!

wow - what a roller coaster of a week. signs are encouraging, yet if you want to solidify yourself and your marriage i would urge you to stay the DB course. because it appears your W is willing to end the PA and invest in the marriage, the relationship strategies in Divorce Remedy are very likely to help you and show results sooner than in situations that have eroded further than yours.

here's what i think you need to look out for. because both of you are likely to have strong mixed feelings about all kinds of things right now, it is possible that the resolution of W's PA will not be as clean and decisive as it appears right now (it is also possible it will - how can anyone know either way?). if there are any unexpected bumps in this area, you don't want to over-monitor or over-react, as this could serve to once again make this relationship more appealing than it really is.

i think the issue of forgiveness is indeed important, yet i think it will take you a while to sort out what you can or can't do. it feels good when you can really reach that state, but it can take a while. i hope you can be patient with yourself.

onyourside2

[cat04]

Around that bad, oh yeah the verbal stuff was worse than that bad and then I realized I had further stuff on top of that. I was a friendly drunk, but what would have added to the problem would have been my amorous compliments to W that should have been being given in a sober state. I got away from the drinking environment about 18 months ago when I decided to stop hanging around with that group of friends. This behaviour is finished.

Ok so this was how you behaved.

Why?

Simple question that has a complicated answer.

A necessary answer though. You say the behavior is finished and I applaud that you want it to be finished. Old habits, old behaviors, have a way of coming back to us when we least expect it.

The best way to stop them is to recognize the whys involved.

What is the root of the behavior.

What are the "triggers" for the behavior.

3,

I may be a little dense but what is SL?

Mach is right, you gloss over things.

You glossed over the how bad, you glossed over the forgivness issue.

I see that Onyourside doesn't believe that it is something that you need to decide right now. I disagree.

You need to decide now if you want to forgive her, if you believe that you can forgive her (and yourself, which you will learn as you delve into your role in all of this) and then, if your answer is yes (regardless of anything she does or does not do), you need to begin finding the way that will work for you to enact that forgivness.

My STBX can't find forgivness. He feels that he doesn't need to forgive people if he can just detatch himself emotionally from them. Makes for very shallow relationships.

It really is a very important question. You may find that it is something you can't do, but you have to decide if you are even committed to trying first.

Otherwise, you are just wasting your time.