Most Likely Youngster Goes His Way (& W Goes Hers)

[westcoastfella]

A mature W might say "Honey, I accept that your OCD was the reason why you said those hurtful things to me, but I just really don't want to stay in this marriage because it's too painful for me". A mature W would NOT be deliberately rubbing your nose in her affair, etc.

I think this makes the difference between me and her. As painful as the things I said to her were, they were never said to deliberately hurt her -- always to quell the massive feelings of anxiety and guilt that I felt within me. (Which is selfish, as I should have thought more about how this was hurting her. I realize that now.)

I always ask for specifics but you did NOT say anything like this execept You were less sexually experienced than your w.

I went through this in full in my thread "Youngster's WAW Still Chooses OM!", toward the bottom of page 9 and the top of page 10. I think, at the time, you were helping out MadeToSucceed -- I remember following quite a few comments that you made on his thread.

and make no mistake, she was VERY hurt. So you either were doing it to make up for her having had sex earlier, including that rape too??? And OR you were so clueless and immature you didn't contain your insecurities and lashed out at the one person who was loving to you and had nothing to do with your prior lack of inexperience...

I feel like I'm being bashed here. If I had to pick either option here, it would be the second one. Yes, I was clueless and immature. I had never been in an R with ANYONE before, especially not one so serious -- I had no idea how hurtful many of my behaviors were. If I had been more of a man, would I have ditched this awful behavior away before it had even occurred? You bet. But the things I said were not designed to purposely break her down, which both of your options seem to suggest was my intent.

You said you were depressed and undereemployed or lost your job and you mentioned VAGUELY that you were inexperienced and had OCD

With the former, you're mixing me up with MadeToSucceed. Somewhere in his sitch, he mentioned getting a football injury, gaining a lot of weight, being depressed, and possibly having some concerns about the fact that his W made more money than he did. The latter is me.

Hey I have to concede I don't buy that your diagnosis for THIS behavior is all OCD...there's a deeper darker thing going on I hope to God you'll address....

I believe that it was OCD, or at least something very similar. I went through the DSM-IV and went through the checklist of symptoms for OCD behavior, and I made nearly all of them. (If you want to take a look, check out this link: OCD Criteria ) My behavior was marked by intense anxiety & fear, feelings of guilt and worthlessness, and feeling as though my mind did things beyond my control. It honestly felt very similar to drug addiction, only without the highs. Only lows.

OCD can be characterized by intrusive thoughts about things that offend the person who has it, including thoughts about religion or sexuality ("Do I hate God? / Am I sexually attracted to children? etc). My belief is that BECAUSE the thoughts are personally offensive, they cause so much anxiety. Hence, my W was so important to me that I wildly overreacted to any kind of thought that could tear our R apart. (If I had been a normal guy, I honestly would not have cared about such thoughts. I would have just not even acknowledged them. I was over the moon for my wife and loved being with her.)

with her past as a rape victim to boot, you two were a toxic mix for each other...hope you both heal

I think that here you are absolutely right. We both had terrible insecurities and our own respective mental traumas. We both need to heal from our traumas, as well as the effects that they had on our R together. I am currently seeing a C and am discussing all of this with her. I don't think my W is seeing a T/C, but I think that she should. She used to, anyway. (Her T at the time also remarked that I had "textbook OCD" when my W described my behavior to her.)

I still don't think that her A is justified, however. I understand that she was unhappy in our M and may have felt driven away from it -- I own my part of what made her unhappy. But she had other options available to her, and she chose the worst one. If she's truly happy in this current R, that's fine -- I want her to pursue what will make her happy. I have told her that I wish her the absolute best. But I refuse to let her keep me "in her back pocket," as you yourself said. I think you'd agree that her behavior there is not cool.

Thanks for your thoughts, labug and CO1978. I personally read "Brain Lock" by Jeffrey Schwartz and found it to be the book that worked for me the best.

[Harrier]

WCF...have you actually been diagnosed as OCD by a train professional or did you just pick up the DSM-IV and compare it to how you are feeling?

Because until you receive a professional diagnosis I wouldn't lean too much on the thought that you suffer from OCD.

Fear and anxiety are also in hundreds of other conditions.

[25yearsmlc]

sorry you felt bashed but after we blasted your wife for being cruel,

when I compare her one time conversation with the MANY times you established this behavior (comparing spouses bodies to others)

then why can't she be given the same benefit of the doubt? YOu said you never did it to hurt her but we must assume SHE did intend to hurt you?

My point is you taught her this behavior, for whatever reason.

[westcoastfella]

Harrier: This is a wise thing to remember. I have always felt convinced that I have had OCD because it is the only disorder that seems to fit my symptoms. I read many books & articles about the disorder during my darkest days, and each one seemed to describe me almost perfectly. However, in the sake of healthy skepticism, I will refrain from diagnosing myself until I get an official sanction from a T or C. (Perhaps I will raise this during my next appointment with current IC.)

25: I understand how you feel. I want you to know that I didn't intend to mislead any of you about myself or my W; I really did disclose the nature of my "behavior" several threads back. I understand that as a resident DB vet, you visit a lot of different threads and may be apt to miss stuff like that, as our threads are usually jam-packed. I appreciate that you're taking the time at all to address mine, as you are full of great advice.

I think that you are right to keep my side of the M's downfall and her A behavior very much in mind. Do I think that I "taught" her the comparison stuff, and that her explicit disclosures may be directly-related? I do, now that you say it so clearly. I never meant to hurt my W so badly, but I did, and now I must deal with the consequences of it. If our M can never be repaired, I will understand. I will be sure to keep such behavior from reappearing in a future R -- count on it. I'm not going back down that terrible road.

However, I'd like to know if I'm doing the right thing by going dark on her now. I feel that I am -- comparison behavior or not, I don't agree with being "there for her" during her A. Both of us have our respective demons to exorcise, and neither of us will get there without letting each other go.

Also, it must be heavily considered: if I was really such a hurtful monster in our R...how much sense does it make that W is still trying to seek me out and rely on me for her emotional needs, rather than OM? (It doesn't make much sense to me, personally.)

[25yearsmlc]

Harrier: This is a wise thing to remember. I have always felt convinced that I have had OCD because it is the only disorder that seems to fit my symptoms.

Most definitely get it diagnosed. I can think of 2 other disorders that fit your symptoms but don't want to say them here. But they are treatable. You don't have to deal with this on your own and hope you find your way through it. Given the risk you take and what you could lose again, I'd for sure get it diagnosed and professionally treated.


25: I understand how you feel. I want you to know that I didn't intend to mislead any of you about myself or my W; I really did disclose the nature of my "behavior" several threads back. I understand that as a resident DB vet, you visit a lot of different threads and may be apt to miss stuff like that, as our threads are usually jam-packed.


indeed, I am sure I did miss it b/c I would have known that it bore restating to remind those who did know. It is a bigger chunk of your marriages's issues than you seem to be suggesting recently and had I known this piece of the puzzle or had you brought it up again, I would have said so.


I appreciate that you're taking the time at all to address mine, as you are full of great advice.

I think that you are right to keep my side of the M's downfall and her A behavior very much in mind. Do I think that I "taught" her the comparison stuff, and that her explicit disclosures may be directly-related? I do, now that you say it so clearly. I never meant to hurt my W so badly, but I did, and now I must deal with the consequences of it. If our M can never be repaired, I will understand. I will be sure to keep such behavior from reappearing in a future R -- count on it. I'm not going back down that terrible road.


good-then get professional help for that specific behavior b/c there are NO women I know who would not be hurt by that,
and if you ever remarry you need to find better ways to handle this or rid yourself of it.


However, I'd like to know if I'm doing the right thing by going dark on her now. I feel that I am -- comparison behavior or not, I don't agree with being "there for her" during her A. Both of us have our respective demons to exorcise, and neither of us will get there without letting each other go.


agreed ^^^


Also, it must be heavily considered: if I was really such a hurtful monster in our R...how much sense does it make that W is still trying to seek me out and rely on me for her emotional needs, rather than OM? (It doesn't make much sense to me, personally.)

a) mind reading and b) co-dependent/mutually shared issues,

and c) why does it matter now?

[westcoastfella]

and c) why does it matter now?

Because I don't want to KEEP hurting her. I did enough damage within the confines of the R. I really don't want to think that I'm continuing to be cruel by keeping my distance from her.

She is asserting that I am being heartless and mean by going dark, but in doing so, it seems like she's trying to guilt-trip me into staying in her life so she gets to have me AND OM, with zero consequences for her behavior. As guilty as I am and have always been of my own behavior, I refuse to make it up for that way. I don't think that kind of expectation of hers is fair either to me OR to her.

[westcoastfella]

I just wanted to add this article that I just found:

Sexual Obsessions

I'm leaving out the assumption that OCD was what I had, but again, this seems to sum up perfectly just what I was struggling with. Please believe me, I never meant to hurt anyone. I am not a bad person. I'm tired of feeling like some kind of monster or a freak for the things that I did or thought. I'm tired of feeling guilt every day for continually hurting the person that I love the most. I want to make things right, for me and for her.

[25yearsmlc]

I agreed you should both let each other go in the post to you.

Just think the rest of the questions are not answerable now.

But I'd stay out of each others' lives b/c for whatever reason, no matter who hurt whom first, your boundary is a normal one now...

[Valeska19]

West,
You've been on my mind for the past few days. I've been hesitant to post as I'm in a bit of a funk...

.... but here we go.

First, 25 makes alot of good points. ALOT.

Maybe she wouldn't have gone on a tangent about your w had she known about your OCD.. but even so.... I think that post was good and pretty dead on.

Yes.. it may make sense that she did those things to you seeing that you did them first.

But I can't buy that it's acceptable or makes it right. If your actions truly hurt you wife.. she had a choice to make.. and she made it - treat as you are treated.

I get it. My dad is abusive to my mom. My middle sister and I became people who were abused. My eldest sister - became an abuser.

.. so I understand why she chose that path. But hopefully she (and you) will understand that one choses his own path. Just as my sister chose to be an abuser.. I chose to be abused.

It is up to us as individuals to break the cycle. To stand on our feet and realize that what was doesn't have to be anymore.


I'm not sure of the point 25 is getting you to understand (sorry - day 8 of 15 hrs days).. but here is what you COULD take from it all.

By understanding how you contributed and why she acted that way about OM, you are opening up the door to forgiveness and healing.

For example: I'm on my 3rd day w/o coffee. I'm very cranky and find myself on edge... insanely.

I find myself struggling not to take it out on my best friend. (btw - I'm failing miserably at it).

As I was fuming in the car.. I realized that this must be what it felt like when my w started giving up all of those foods in her 12 step program.

And although it didn't make it RIGHT that she took it out on me constantly.. I finally understood how that was possible.....

..... and in the moment... I forgave my w for treating me like crap when it came to that issue.

I guess my point is to just push yourself to be more understanding.

Understanding and accepting doesn't make what your w said about OM right. It just opens your heart to to forgive her. It protects your heart from getting angry and bitter.

And I feel it isn't until those moments of forgiveness and true acceptance come.. we can truly love ourselves and others.

[2thepoint]

"And I feel it isn't until those moments of forgiveness and true acceptance come.. we can truly love ourselves and others."

This ^^^^ is very good!