Crimson, thanks for posting your thoughts. I'm catching up on the threads but really appreciate your transparency...
You said: I have had plenty of time to reflect on these, and though I do not agree with all of them (any of them, really) I can see how she arrived at some of these conclusions. How do I 180 these if they are so very much centered around her perception of me?
I can empathize with this. I struggle with the accusations my W has laid on me, but at the samem time, it does not change the way she feels and that fact that I must do something different to help her see and feel something different about me. What that is, however, is still a struggle to figure out.
Wish I had better suggestions to offer but there are certainly more intuitive people here to offer that. Just know you're not alone and you're in my thoughts & prayers.
Me:45, W:45 S:16 D:13 M:22, T:25 Bomb: July 2010 Putting finances in order for "D" Continue to live in same home-separate rooms
Here is a question at large just regarding the content. One of the things that I have been very focused on in the "list of 37" is:
"not discussing the future - they aren't interested in a future with you right now."
Now, on the one hand I see how it is imperative to show how life and marriage to me would be better from "this day forward". On the other hand, I see how it is nearly impossible to make that point without at least "grazing" the future.
I am filled with fear that she just won't believe me and will react poorly and give me the "nice, but it's too late" line. I keep thinking about the lines she has hit me with:
"Maybe your changes will benefit your next relationship"
"It's over! I'm done! And there is nothing you can do or say to change my mind!"
"Give me a rule book on what to do and I'll read it! Better yet - give it to your NEXT wife!"
More recently: "I have NO trust in you at all. I trust that you will do right by our S, but that is it."
I think through those statements and become paralyzed with fear that any outreach on my end will be met with a hail of bullets. Still, I think the time has arrived that I tell her something about where I am right now. I just don't think she will believe me. Should I plan for a negative reaction initially and just hope the core message sinks in gradually?
I'll start thinkingthrough an outline later today......
Crimson
Sorry can't figure out to to change font color etc.. Crimson, I'm so glad you posted this. These are the EXACT (except no kids) lines my WAW used on me and they are heartbreaking to be sure. In a sense, I am observing your stitch and living vicariously here. You have the gift of fortitude and honesty that will, in the end, make everything alright. Thanks so much for sharing - I'm learning so much through your posts bro!
Me: 44 Bomb: 11/27/11 Divorced:6/12 Life goes on: 6/13
If I may add my 2 cents, these are the things that my H said to me as well.
Funny how they turn the trust thing around. We have to earn their trust? What? Who's seriously committed to the R here and wants to improve things? Should things get better in the future, it seems to me that the WAS would have to earn our trust back, but that's just my 2 cents.
You have done some really introspective work for yourself. And from what we read, you have really seen the light.
25 highlighted the points that you should probably work on , although.....
You are the kind of person, that runs the risk of taking this conversation too deep , and would probably try to "fix" this whole thing with this exchange.
What I would suggest doing, is taking some time, and allowing those points from above to REALLY become who you are, and THEN follow this up with a short and sweet talk , from you heart.
Give her just enough to want to follow that up, by hearing more.
This is a conversation that HAS to be from your heart, not some rehearsed speech ( which she will feel that from you ).
One of the things that she NEEDS to SEE, is that you ARE different, and not as rehearsed as you have been in the past.
That you are willing to take life as it comes, instead of planning every second of it, and pouting when things fail to go as planned.
This is how you SHOW those things.
And if you really believe in your changes, and they are real, then let your heart speak to her....
What I would suggest doing, is taking some time, and allowing those points from above to REALLY become who you are, and THEN follow this up with a short and sweet talk , from you heart.
Give her just enough to want to follow that up, by hearing more.
Bingo! I think this really speaks to the challenge many LBS have regarding pursuit.
Frame this as a sales job or job interview. The goal being getting the WAS to pursue. To believe that what you have... who you are... is something they want...
MNKY and NHMOM, this is for the two of you, as well. In having heard the same things from your spouses (and so many of us have). The WAS has said to you, "I AM NOT BUYING". The 180 here for the LBS is to move from "I am selling" (pursuit) to "I am NOT selling" (withdrawal). This 180 (when sincere) is a classic "take away" sales position which is extremely effective.
When the buyer no longer feels pressure of the sell, they begin to take down their walls.
When the wall comes down, the "feel, felt, found" method works really well. This is what we might call "validating and empathizing" in DB. "I understand how you feel. I felt that way, too. I found that..."
And finally, as the prospect begins to feel understood and validated... the technique changes to one of "valuation projecting" (for lack of a better term). Visualization being a key aspect of this. What is happening here is using key points that you have learned about the prospect which have been learned through active listening and highlighting them (as positives that our product / us have) and how the now and the future life will be so much better, with.
ie. "I understand how important (security or other key point) is in a person's life. I can't imagine anyone being without that. It's a very important thing for someone to have. I want that as part of my life and this is what I'm doing to achieve that. I know you deserve that and can also have that."
What is happening is, you are not selling yourself. You are simply encouraging that as a goal for the prospect to strive for. They project it as an aspect of yourself or your product and then leaving it lie. Even going so far as to have the prospect tell you how their life would be like, how it would "look" if they had that in their life. If they cannot provide a visual example, provide one for them. The prospect integrates that into their own inventory of wants / needs and then places you or your product into that role.
Yes, how I've presented this can appear odd. A lot of people don't relate sales to relationships. I felt that way to. I found that these types of sales techniques are an integral part of relationships and can be observed in businesses where service is a core part of the product line. Relationships matter in all parts of our lives. The most successful businesses and sales people are those who build those relationships...
The most important key here is: You MUST fulfill or the relationship will break down and you will loose the customer.
You make a very valid point - and in a more perfect setting and set of circumstances I think that a face to face talk would be ideal.....even preferred. However, at this time I don't think a face to face talk would go over well. I think she still has a lot of anger a few millimeters below the surface and it would turn into "attack and defend". I think that AFTER I can sit and write out everything in a meaningful, heartfelt manner it may calm the waters enough to make a conversation about "us" more of a reality. I would view this as an opening salvo, really.
THANK YOU TO EVERYONE that has been so complimentary, kind and encouraging in your words. This is the fight of my life so far, though I know others have endured worse (cancer, death of a loved one, etc.).
These last four months has opened my eyes so wide about what truly matters and who truly matters. I can see that I wasn't a BAD or abusive husband - I was just very, very, VERY poorly equipped to emotionally support a wife or child. I had no idea how joyful the life I was living was. Nor did I have any idea how joyless I was making my w's life. She and my son are my whole world and I hope to get us all back together soon.
Thank you again everyone - campy as this may sound, I would not be doing was well without you. Especially you, 25. You are amazing.
So since I was in Denver Monday and Tuesday I had reached SEVERAL days without seeing my son. My W has Wednesdays and Thursdays so I asked if it would be OK if I came to her place to see him. She said that would be OK and said there was a park right around the corner that he likes. I told her she would be more than welcome to come along, and that it might be good for S to see us both together - even if it is for a little while. She declined the offer and said that S needs "dad time". Hey, at least I put it out there.
I got to her place and tapped on the window and S gave out a loud "DADDY!!!" and a huge smile. W opened the door and I kneeled down and gave him a big hug and told him how much I missed him and how happy I was to see him. I damn near cried.
I took him over to the park and we played for about an hour. It was wonderful - he was so happy and laughed, and ran......just wonderful. We went back to W's place and I just sat on the front porch with him. W opened the door and talked to us a bit. My uncle passed away this week and she was asking about him.....remembering how nice he was to her and how he went out of his way to welcome her to the family. It was nice.
She invited me in by saying "S, do you want to show daddy your blocks??" - so I went inside and sat on the floor with him stacking his blocks until he got bored with it, handed me a book to read him, and plopped into my lap. I read to him while I heard my W drawing a bath for him. I got him ready for his bath and met W in the bathroom. She dropped him in and started cleaning him up.
Oddly enough, she asked how my trip to Colorado went. I said "well" and touched on a few things I did. She asked what friends I saw (interesting) so I gave her the list. I told her that she was right - it was a really beautiful state. It was time to take off so W said "Tell daddy bye bye!". I gave him a little kiss and I was on my way. First time I've left him there without crying on the way home.
For a little bit, it felt like we were a family again. I miss it so much. Maybe she felt the same way.....bah, who knows.
Yes, it appears odd but it's just a different way of modelling DB techniques. If one bears that in mind, it's not odd at all.
A lot of people are willing to accept M using the business model. We use words like "deal breaker." Marriages can be legally terminated through divorce proceedings, just like any business contract.
IMHO, as long as we recognize the context, i.e.: that we're only looking at one model, it doesn't seem odd at all.
It brings to mind the question of whether or not we're all just playing games. Whenever it starts to feel like game-playing, I always think of this:
Quote:
From Divorce Busting:
Sometimes after reading about doing a 180 people wonder, "isn't this technique like game playing? Isn't it manipulative?" Continuing to do the same old thing even though it doesn't work is no less game-like than doing something different. In fact, since relationships are like seesaws, if one person expresses all the optimism and confidence, the other person is free to feel all the pessimism and insecurity. Spouses often balance each other out in this way. When one person's views are extreme, it forces his or her partner to adopt an equally extreme view in the opposite direction.
Originally Posted By: Crimson
You make a very valid point - and in a more perfect setting and set of circumstances I think that a face to face talk would be ideal
For a little bit, it felt like we were a family again. I miss it so much. Maybe she felt the same way.....bah, who knows.
That's wonderful, Crimson. Treasure those moments. Who knows? Maybe your W does too. But either way, it's something you can look back on fondly.
My kids are older than yours. A couple of summers ago I went on a trip to Southeast Asia with my eldest D. W wasn't with us, and though I would have preferred her to be there, I enjoyed the time with my D more than you can imagine. And I do treasure those memories.
These last four months has opened my eyes so wide about what truly matters and who truly matters. I can see that I wasn't a BAD or abusive husband - I was just very, very, VERY poorly equipped to emotionally support a wife or child. I had no idea how joyful the life I was living was. Nor did I have any idea how joyless I was making my w's life.
