Most Likely Youngster Goes His Way (& W Goes Hers)

[25yearsmlc]

PS

I agree with KML on all counts. I also think that this is the final straw in my mind.

Unless and until she gets serious help, which I do NOT expect her to get until IF AND WHEN the affair burns out and even then, I doubt it...


she's a BAD bet for you.

She has the sensitivity of a rock, and will careen around banging into your NORMAL male ego the rest of your life if you let her AND

she's a succubus. I assume she's great looking and or very rich b/c she has treated you terribly, but she doesn't like that there is ANY price to pay for that, socially or like losing the "friendship" with their exes. First she wants you to hurry up and sign the papers and then she whines that you are too upbeat.


Not saying you were perfect-yeah we know BUT now you are a better catch. You have changed; you have grown, and she has NOT. Clearly.

She ended it and claimed to have good reasons..okay, maybe so.

Then Now what's new? She wants to keep torturing you? Keeping you in her back pocket and making sure you do NOT date OWs or appear too happy b.c then maybe SHE didn't make a good trade...oops....Don't let her keep you stuck anymore.

Finally, a shrink once told me that 90% of women who take ADs have critical spouses...I have wondered for awhile what role SHE played in your depression.

Sure, I know, YOU are responsible for your happiness but I sure do wonder how she was playing you b/c I don't think you see the manipulations as clearly as some of us are...so maybe we'll never know what role she played but she won't have one anymore...

Hey West, There are many fun sexy women out there who are smart and LOVING and

Not crazy, selfish or cruel. I promise you there are so many. Your ex has blown it.

If she falls apart on you, and if you begin to cave (hope you won't)

tell her to call you when she's done with OM AND

has seen a shrink to get help with her massive confusion and crazy

"careening" into egos and hurting you, and then you'll see where YOU are, if and when that ever happens.

Otherwise, what's to talk about? His penis? [u] Oh yeah that's super fun[/u]

If you stay on the road you have chosen, you'll be fine and happy soon enough. Her happiness never was nor is it now, YOUR responsibility.


((( )))

[westcoastfella]

I will reply to you guys in broken-down posts, as I like to keep things short & sweet.

That discomfort is actually making her deal with what she's done in a way that she never would have done if you'd just indulged her "best friends forever" fantasy. And the fact that she can't understand or respect the fact that you have this (entirely reasonable) boundary - says something about her selfishness.

I think that's what's at play here. OM, while fun for a while, could only fill that missing 20%, and now she's feeling the missing 80%. Otherwise, why bother being so desperate to keep me in her life? I thought afterwards: where was OM while we were having this big, long conversation? He was definitely not in the background or else I would have heard him.

Although - I will say, there's an old trick that often is enlightening. Take a statement of hers, replace all the "you"s with "I"s - and you often can hear what they are REALLY thinking.

This is interesting! Does this have a basis in psychology literature, or is it really just a trick? The "improved" quote that you posted definitely sounds quite different.

[westcoastfella]

Reply to 25, Pt. 1

She's very self centered and clueless AND btw, she has NOT grown an inch emotionally. Notice that It's all about how SHE hurts now b/c she cheated on you and somehow
it's all about her, again...

It very much feels this way, yes. In her world view, she left because I was making her unhappy, and now I'm only continuing to make her unhappy because I'm not willing to break this boundary of mine. She actually said at one point, "I think it's very interesting that between being there for someone you care about and enforcing some kind of personal boundary, you choose the boundary." Obviously, personal boundaries clearly mean nothing to her.

Like I said, Let HER go patch herself up and figure what she wants out and THEN SHE can come to you and say why she misses you and what she needs or wants from you and YOU can choose what's right for YOU.

I will probably end up doing this. It will take me a long time to let her go out of my heart and to build up myself into a solid person, and it will take an REALLY long time for her to work out her demons (if ever she's able or willing to do that). By that time, I may have moved on to someone better, but that's the risk that I'm taking. I need to be in a healthy R. Not this.

Yes I'm saying go get your swagger on and gain some experience so YOU'LL know when you are treated right...b/c she treated you horribly and still won't admit it. And sometimes you dont' see it yourself.

I'm beginning to realize that there was a lot that I didn't see (and still don't see). In the bubble of our R, it was just between me and her, so I didn't know anything different. But now when I tell other people (like you guys or my C) about her behavior, the strength of their reaction ("OMG, I can't believe she SAID/DID that!") has been opening my eyes quite widely.

Your marital mistakes were what again? IF I recall - you got complacent and depressed and I'm SURE that was a big drag...you were underemployed too?

You seem to be mixing me up with MadeToSucceed. This is easy to do as our sitches are EERILY similar (both in our twenties, both with psycho WAS', etc.) My W's big complaint with me was my OCD -- the thoughts that I had about her body image, the bodies of other women, how I compared other women's bodies to her, etc. What angers me is how she still seems to think that these "bad thoughts" were just as bad, if not worse, than her current behavior. I understand that my thoughts were very damaging to her self-esteem, but I never actually went out and slept with anybody. Seems like a big difference to me.

when you trade one guy in for another, you DO lose the guy you traded in. You do NOT get to keep one in reserve or pout to them about what it cost HER to make "one mistake".... God she's got the selfishiness of an elementary school brat but that offends me b/c my girls NEVER acted like this.

The first thing you said here is one of the main reasons why I'm going dark on her. Either she stays & works things out, or she chooses OM and leaves. She DOESN'T get to have both, and it angers me that she believes herself to be ENTITLED to me. And yes, I'm starting to see how "bratty" she is acting. It's scary how SHE just doesn't see it that way. Hope she sees everything one day as it really is.

So YES you did the right thing and if anything you were too polite about it.I'd want to express SOME shock at the gall of a woman who cheats on you when you were already down in the dumps, and then pouts that you won't be her bff anymore...Good God...

I will admit that I have always been too polite in this matter. But I am polite for two reasons: 1, because being calm, collected, and kind to her in the face of her terrible behavior makes me feel like the better man. To not allow myself to get affected or to sling her sh!t right back at her...man, the air on the high road tastes so much sweeter. Can't get enough of it.

2, I honestly feel like, given where her head is at right now, my being shocked at her behavior would be pointless. Kind of like when people yell at their dogs, trying to get animals to understand WHY they're mad at them. It's just a waste of time, really. Better to disengage with a smile. I feel like being happy!

[westcoastfella]

Reply to 25, Pt. 2

she's a BAD bet for you. She has the sensitivity of a rock, and will careen around banging into your NORMAL male ego the rest of your life if you let her AND she's a succubus. I assume she's great looking and or very rich b/c she has treated you terribly, but she doesn't like that there is ANY price to pay for that, socially or like losing the "friendship" with their exes.

I have been fearing for a long time now that she's just no good for me. I am sure that once I come across a much better woman, it will cinch it for me just HOW bad my W is. I wish that it wasn't so because we were so good in so many ways, but only she can make the choice to become a strong and healthy person.

As for the latter, she is very beautiful to me, but not objectively a "knock-out" (not to the point where it's a huge asset), and she's not rich, either. The only other thing I can think of is her career. She's getting her P.h.D in psychology (how fitting), so she's had much more professional experience than I have (or obviously OM, who as far as I know is a dunce).

Finally, a shrink once told me that 90% of women who take ADs have critical spouses...I have wondered for awhile what role SHE played in your depression. Sure, I know, YOU are responsible for your happiness but I sure do wonder how she was playing you b/c I don't think you see the manipulations as clearly as some of us are...so maybe we'll never know what role she played but she won't have one anymore...

I will substitute "OCD" for "depression" to answer you, since the depression was MTS' thing. Yes, I believe that I could have done more to manage my OCD -- I agree with my W on that. But, now that I've gotten some distance from the R, I am beginning to see how her own massive insecurity contributed to my disorder. She still believes that it was ALL me, but I believe that her wild overreactions did NOT help the sitch at all and only made it worse.

ey West, There are many fun sexy women out there who are smart and LOVING and Not crazy, selfish or cruel. I promise you there are so many. Your ex has blown it.

I am looking forward to finding this out on my own. I do love women, especially the ones who treat me right. It'll be some fun, hands-on experience. I look forward to finding the person who I am meant to be with and, in addition, doing things right this time around.

Her happiness never was nor is it now, YOUR responsibility.

This is why I felt so guilty last night, and why I've felt so guilty for years. I have always felt (and SHE has made me feel far too often) that I am the source of her happiness and/or unhappiness. I must learn to let her realize this fact for herself. I'm in charge of my own happiness now, and she's in charge of hers. (At one point last night, I said, "I'm in charge of meeting my needs and desires now, and you're in charge of yours." She replied, "That's not the way it works." )

BTW, thank you guys so much for your detailed and quick responses. I was in a bad way last night, but when I got to read your responses this morning, I felt instantly better. I am blessed to know both of you and all of the lovely people on this Godsend of a website.

[25yearsmlc]

before I get into details...I did NOT recall your OCD being somehow relevant

to you making comparisons about her body and other women's bodies.

maybe it's No wonder she thought discussions of OM's penis and how long he can go, seemed appropriate to her. Perhaps you taught her that?

Were the comparisons you made between her and other women flattering to her?
were your verbalized observations about HER body, compliments?

Or were they hurtful?

[westcoastfella]

No, they were very hurtful. These "thoughts" made up almost the entirety of my OCD. Very little of my disease was displayed through outward compulsions -- almost all spent within the corridors of my mind. I would see an attractive woman and think to myself, in a very scared and anxious manner, "How does this person rate on the scale of attractiveness? Would I think that person would be more attractive than my W if I didn't know either one of them?" etc. I would then analyze these thoughts for hours afterward in the belief that doing so would cause me relief.

I hated these thoughts very much for the obvious reason: because they posed a threat to my R with my W. I felt horrible for having them and almost half the time didn't know if they were "true" or not. Sometimes they felt real; sometimes they didn't. I almost always came to the conclusion that they were not true and told my W this. I also always told my W that, despite my thoughts, they did not change the way I felt about her: that she was perfect to me and that I didn't want anybody else, no matter what they looked like. I always felt like my thoughts were "outside" or "apart" from how I REALLY felt about her.

For much of my R, I felt that I had to confess such thoughts to my W -- this, I believe, was a big compulsion (along with analyzing such thoughts for hours a day). At first, my W didn't care, but because my thoughts became an almost-daily struggle, she began to believe that they really were true -- because then why would they matter so much to me? (As a psychologist, I thought she would understand my brain-scape, but she did not.)

In the year or so prior to my W's A and the D, I felt that I had gotten so much better. My disorder was nowhere near how bad it was in the past, and in fact, on my W's B-day last year, less than a month before the revelation of OM, I thought that my thoughts were better than they'd ever been. There was a point when we went on a whale-watching trip together and had a blast; walking around somewhere, holding hands with me, my W looked up and said, "WCF...you're my best friend," and looked as though she might cry. I thought things were going to be okay. Then she met OM and things just fell apart.

I guess I could use some input on this. I don't feel that I was 100% to blame for my W's reaction to my thoughts. She already had some huge insecurities about her image (as I understand is normal for rape survivors), and my disorder unfortunately fed those insecurities.

I do, however, accept the reality that the things I did or said throughout our R was incredibly hurtful, and I wish (as I have told W many times) that if I could have done so much differently, I would have.

[kml]

No, you were not 100% to blame. Let's face it, you were gripped by a disease, one that is difficult for people to understand. Especially because it didn't take the most "classic" form of handwashing or tapping, instead taking the less common form of compulsive confessing. (Some people with that form confess to crimes they didn't commit, etc.)

And your wife was particularly vulnerable to the painful effects because of her own insecurities.

You've owned your part, and you're mature enough to realize that she just might not be able to get over the pain that caused her. That's an adult response.

I think what all of us here see, is that she, in her pain and affair craziness, has been particularly brutal to you in return - deliberately so. And that her response has been very IMmature.

A mature W might say "Honey, I accept that your OCD was the reason why you said those hurtful things to me, but I just really don't want to stay in this marriage because it's too painful for me". A mature W would NOT be deliberately rubbing your nose in her affair, etc.

[25yearsmlc]

No, you were not 100% to blame. Let's face it, you were gripped by a disease, one that is difficult for people to understand. Especially because it didn't take the most "classic" form of handwashing or tapping, instead taking the less common form of compulsive confessing. (Some people with that form confess to crimes they didn't commit, etc.)

And your wife was particularly vulnerable to the painful effects because of her own insecurities.

You've owned your part, and you're mature enough to realize that she just might not be able to get over the pain that caused her. That's an adult response.

I think what all of us here see, is that she, in her pain and affair craziness, has been particularly brutal to you in return - deliberately so. And that her response has been very IMmature.

A mature W might say "Honey, I accept that your OCD was the reason why you said those hurtful things to me, but I just really don't want to stay in this marriage because it's too painful for me". A mature W would NOT be deliberately rubbing your nose in her affair, etc.

Now that new info had come in, I have a different take on it KML. I think her behavior and discussing OMs size and penis issues make total sense in context


he has been comparing her to OWs non stop every night AND telling her...he says "mostly" he concluded they were not more attractive..... so God only knows what happens if a truly gorgeous woman did walk in...

West would evdently openly overtly fantasize in such a way that HE was frightened b/c It threateed his marriage (HIS words_)

it is odd that I missed this earlier West.

I always ask for specifics but you did NOT say anything like this execept You were less sexually experienced than your w. I had no idea that it botherd you so much that you would choose to hurt her with this "fantasy life"

and make no mistake, she was VERY hurt. So you either were doing it to make up for her having had sex earlier, including that rape too??? And OR you were so clueless and immature you didn't contain your insecurities and lashed out at the one person who was loving to you and had nothing to do with your prior lack of inexperience...

You said you were depressed and undereemployed or lost your job and you mentioned VAGUELY that you were inexperienced and had OCD

but you never to my recall, told me that your "OCD" triggered THIS behavior
(and my nerdy brother has it, and Asperger's syndrome, but he has never told his wife such cruel things WEST OMG....get help) or this will sabotage ALL future r's with Other women.

You never told me THIS STUFF and thats' weird and I feel chagrined.

I just blasted your w's cruelty, and NOW you mention that, night after night your marriage was crippled by your fantasies of OWs which you TOLD her about?
Hey I have to concede I don't buy that your diagnosis for THIS behavior is all OCD...there's a deeper darker thing going on I hope to God you'll address....
wow...it puts her behavior in a totally new light

YOU showed her that talking about "competitors" bodies and comparing was FINE....not insensitive. How many times did you do it to her? b/c it sounds like hundreds....or more...and I was all on your bandwagon about dumping her b/c I had never heard of a woman doing that to a guy she left, but see
it makes way more sense now, IN CONTEXT and

with her past as a rape victim to boot, you two were a toxic mix for each other

hope you both heal

[labug]

West, I hope you are in treatment for your OCD. It can be a debilitating disorder but there is treatment. I have a kid with severe OCD and while his treatment has helped, it will be with him for life. He struggles daily with intrusive thoughts and compulsions. His sx are pretty classic but there is a wide range of symptoms.

It's been our experience that even some psychologists don't understand it fully and you have to work to find the right person and the right combination of therapy and meds.

Rewind, Replay, Repeat by Jeff Bell provides an eye-opening look into what goes on in the mind on someone with OCD.

[CO1978]

West, I too have a problem with OCD and perfectionism. My IC has really helped my overcome this, as I am not as bad now.

It is strange how OCD and perfectionism made me such a great Marine, but hurt my marriage.

The other day when my W and I had a long talk we discussed my perfectionist attitude. We talked about loading the dishwasher or refilling the ice trays. We laughed and when told her there is no right way, I can't believe I got upset about those things.

Something I realized was:

*Everybody has their own view of perfection, there is no true perfection, don’t expect perfection.

*Do set agreements on standards with each other

*Share housework (do it together) so you both know each other’s standards

*ALWAYS DO YOUR BEST

I am not saying I am cured from my OCD, but I am on the right track. That is why I keep recommending the book "The Four Agreements" to everyone, it truly changed my life.