Never thought I'd be here.......part 5

[25yearsmlc]

I'll give this a whirl...it's good stuff Crimson.

and you have a fine line to walk. Sounds like your main fear or the bigger one is that she'll call you on the BS or say "too little, too late" VS listing so many "inconvenient truths" that she says "now YOU get why I'm outta here".


I think you may want to lean against saying too little, like 60/40- so that if you do blow this it won't be b/c you held back. Make sense?

25 - Here is the first gut-wrenching introspective post that I put up (in my "Part 2"). It should cover some of the things that my wife was unhappy about and my overall role in this madness.

Also, you are correct. I was scared about adoption or going through the IVF process again. Scared to afford it, scared to not have a "plan" for raising 2 kids. We still have a frozen embryo in storage and I would love to use it. After bonding so well with my son, I DO want another one. Me not expressing a strong desire to have baby #2 was a "big wake-up call" for her. She said "You're willing to give up on my dream and I'm not!"

I wouldn't say that I was "too" into my job - I was into it, but I would come home wiped out and just want to veg out, whereas she would want to go the the park with S, cook, etc.

***********
so that^^^ can be an example you give that isn't too horrible (pretty common complaint from WAWs) of being selfish or not meeting her household co-parenting needs of your w.


I have been putting a lot of thought into personal introspection these last few days. Naturally, it is difficult because I am finding that it forces you to lay down your defenses and look at your actions through the eyes of your spouse to a certain degree. When the bomb was dropped in September I spent SOOO much time focusing on what was wrong with W (hormones, depression, etc.) - it was a waste. That's not to say that there wasn't/isn't validity to it - but there is nothing I can do about it at all. It was most cheeseless of cheesless tunnels I could find.

well said. Does not matter if you have no control...b/c you have none!


That said, defenses down - here's some of my introspection about how I landed here.

I was selfish and didn't listen or pay attention to the small signs my W was sending. I operated from the standpoint that as the H, I was supposed to provide and protect and as long as I was doing that I was being a fundamentally good husband. Quote from the W on D day: "you're good at the big things - nice house, providing, finances - but you miss the little things and the little things matter!!".


How about validating ^^ this for her and give a FEW examples (no more than 3) of what you'd DO DIFFERENTLY if you had the chance? The examples below are good, safe innocuous but specific enough to me.



She would ask me to do certain things with her, like walk to the park with the baby and I would claim I was too tired because I just got back from work and just wanted to relax. She always asked me to rub her back and I only did it half the time - the other times I would just say "no" thinking that I was tired, trying to sleep or that she wouldn't do it for me if I asked.

I loved my wife the whole time, but I viewed marriage and fatherhood as responsibility - almost like a wagon that I had to pull. I didn't look at it like I see it now - it's a blessing, a gift, something that needs to be selflessly tended to.


TELL HER THIS^^^... to ME it's quite lovely and sounds genuine and insightful AND notice that it ends with you saying a positive.
See if you can keep THAT THEME going...spotting the flaw and then turning it around into a positive b/c NOW you get it and NOW you'll be different.

She MAY believe it's too late but she will NOT think it's too little. And there's no way she won't wish, perhaps wistfully OR ruefully, that you took so long.

But if there's no OM yet, or if there is but he hasn't taken her heart, I cannot imagine her not wanting to try again.

I really think it's primarily about her believing you really will be different for good.

You could say "and there are other things I'd like to do differently that I don't even know about yet! Yes I do hope to learn about more things YOU want to do & learn about together. I want to know you better more and more and discover together the "little things" out there that we can do together with our kidS..."? If you feel any of this is authentic or rings true for you, go for it. You may be better off saying that part in person IF you get the chance and it seems to flow.



With the view I had, it didn't leave a lot of room for sitting back and appreciating my wife for simply being her....for being my wife. It was made worse by the fact that I DO have perfectionist tendencies that drive me. Without intending to, I forced my wife to deal with them. My eye never goes to what's right first - it goes to what I perceive as being wrong first and I go to "fix-it" mode. Stepping outside of myself, I can see how someone else could grow tired of that over time. Eventually, she may have thought that I was doing the same to her - not seeing her pluses, but zeroing in on her minuses and trying to fix them. She has all but said that.


Maybe you can tie this flaw into the way you were raised below (where you discuss failure not being an option) and show that you get where you got it AND THAT's was step to repairing it and you have taken that step AND more...towards repairing it...


There were moments that if I had an idea in my head, I wouldn't budge if she had a different idea. For example - we have a loft area upstairs in our house. The first time I stepped into the place I INSTANTLY converted it into a small home theater in my head and started making plans. After the baby was born, she wanted to change it to a play area for him with a train table, and other things. I refused to budge - even though we have a big a$$ flat screen and surround sound downstairs. Selfish. No way around it. I wouldn't even give serious thought to making it a play area. A few weeks after she said she wanted a D, I bought a train table and put it in the room and left her a note that I was sorry for being selfigh. But by then it was too late, she was already sleeping in a different room and plotting her escape to her own place. There are other examples I could give of being selfish - but just know that I see it much more clearly now.

We found a church that we both really liked. We would go every now and then - but then she started attending regularly. I didn't go with her. I chose to stay home, not because I had a problem with church but because "I have to be somewhere on time 5 days a week - I just want to enjoy down time on Sunday and not HAVE to be anywhere". I knew she wanted me to go - but I just ignored it. And yes, I would feel guilty - but I didn't change my actions. I put what I wanted above she wanted. Again, it's clear what I did wrong here and I regret it tremendously.



are you going back to church NOW on your own? IF so, let her know, if not, why not?


I ignored her subtle suggestions of things she liked me to do for her. We would wake up on Saturday mornings and she would say "Would you make us breakfast?" - I would say no, or worse yet say nothing at all. I knew that she loved when I cooked for her or when we cooked together - I just didn't pay attention.

In moments, she would bravely confess that she suffered from low self esteem and I KNEW that she needed a lot of positive feedback from me. I never gave as much as I should. I felt that she had to learn to love and accept herself - or all of the compliments in the world from me would be of little to no help at all. Clearly there was an opportunity for me to make her feel better about herself and I did not take advantage of it. I let my beliefs override her needs. Looking back, I regret that more than I can say.


I'm not going to kick you when you are down but THIS^^^ is a big deal for any and ALL women, fyi. Not just low self esteem women. Every woman wants her man to think AND SPEAK well of her TO HER...don't skimp on the compliments...gosh they matter. IF you marry someone else don't forget this. THIS is among the most seriously hurtful things and I don't think it would take a lot of effort on your end to fix. I mean we're really only discussing positive 5 minutes a day spread out over the day...You can do that with no problem IF you remind yourself and put a little tiny thought and effort into it. It matters so much.



I thought that as long as I was providing, giving her a good life and paying the bills that she would see me a a great husband. She was right - I missed all of the little things somehow. I missed all of the things that would have touched her soul because I felt that things that I was doing were already doing that. I was filling a round hole with a square peg and calling it a perfect fit. I was wrong. I was selfish. I was stubborn. I was blind.


this ^^ may be the way to close after you've said your peace about the flaws and tied in positives/changes, and then add something about how you would do so many things differently if you had it to do over.

Let her worry that you WILL do it differently next time....without her and yet let her know that choice is really hers... If SHE wants to be the beneficiary of all these efforts and improvements that'd be so great and super for your son...you want that too...


I have spent so much time trying to examine what was/is wrong with her that I didn't really look at what I did to drive her away. How does a perfectionist admit that they were a less-than-ideal spouse? I was covering all of the bases that I thought mattered - and not covering the ones that mattered to her. I felt like I did improve her life - but probably just from a material standpoint - and not completely from a "true happiness" standpoint. I thought as long as there was a little blue box from Tiffany under the tree every Christmas that it would show her how much I loved her - when all she really wanted was for me to hold her hand and walk to the park with our son.


IF you have read "The Five Love Languages" tell her...and if you haven't yet, how come?? Buddy that's a good book to get no matter what.


I am ashamed of myself that it had to come to this for me to have these realizations come into sharp focus when all I had to do was listen a little bit more.

maybe say that^^^^ and THEN tie in the changes like use that paragraph as the transition to the positive changes...


I can try to blame this all on depression and hormones - and maybe there is a component of that involoved, but it doesn't take away from the fact that there were REAL ISSUES driving her actions - depression or not.


um, yeah I'd steer AWAY from this ^^ and remember that if SHE mentions it, 90% of women who take ADs are married to men considered to be critical...just fyi


So now I am asking the experts on this board - how do I fix this within myself now that I am carrying this grief around? Sure, I want to bring my family back - but I want to be BETTER first. I want her to believe that I am better and want to be back together - I just don't know how to get there from here.

I am not beating myself up here - just trying to be as honest as possible.

*****************
well ARE YOU BETTER YET? Are you going to a church or giving more of yourself somewhere? I guess you are with your son so there is that

and SHE seems to believe or has heard of your "transformation" somewhere.
Also Helpful.....


Let me preface this by saying that I don't "blame" anyone for who or how I am. I will simply explain what my influences were and what has always been expected of me.

I was raised to not accept failure - ever - under any circumstances. I was literally told frequently that "failure is not an option" - neither was "partially done" or "almost". From the time I was old enough to remember, my dad always used to say this to me: "Once a job you've first begun, never leave it till it's done. Be it great or ever so small, do it right or not at all". Perfection, or the pursuit of it, was established as a criteria for success.


This ^^ ties in with the perfectionism you are working on letting go of. The examples you give below are good ones of how you were raised and the lens through which you viewed the world. THANKS TO HER your life will be easier on YOU now, as well your son and "others in your life" b/c you are actively working on letting this go with your t"....if that's true and let's hope for your sake it is.

From how well I did weekly chores to my performance in school - the expectation was perfection. Professionally and academically that has served me well. The side effects that it produced have not. As mentioned in previous post above, my eye ALWAYS goes straight to the imperfection in something with an intent to fix it. I literally have a physical reaction inside of me with I perceive something is "out of order" or wrong and I immediately try to fix it. It could be as simple as a picture hanging crooked or my closet being disorganized - I feel as though I have to make it perfect.

Soooo, how does that manifest in a relationship? Well, obviously the resulting OCD made my wife crazy - and she took it personally as if I was saying she failed to do something so now I have to do it. But more interestingly, it made me strive for this ideal of perfection as a spouse. Which, in and of itself, is noble - if and ONLY if you are pursuing that perfection as it has been defined by your spouse.

um, even IF SHE sought perfection I would argue it's unhealthy. There is no way she would not apply that to others and it's arrogant to assume we can attain it anyhow. No theological arguments here so much as just saying she'd never be happy if perfection were her goal. Not healthy and not noble imo...just be your best...and when you fall as we all do, get up again.
It's not how often you fall that counts, but how many times you get back up that shows character and is noble. IMO



In my case, I was seeking it as defined by my parents. Provide, protect....those were the big two from my father. Neatness and organization - those were the contributions from my mother. THOSE became my yard stick - and as long as I thought I was doing those (provide and protect especially) I thought I was avoiding be a failure as a father and husband. Why? Because the people that I got those marching orders from told be from birth that "failure was not an option".

So, if I put myself in my wife's shoes I can see the frustration when her set of criteria for being a good H is somewhat different. Remember - she said "you're good at the big things - but you are awful and the small things, and the small tihngs matter". She also probably felt that nothing she did measured up in my eyes. So I guess the concise answer to your question is that I had those behaviors because I thought that was how to not fail as a husband - to be perfect according to some set of criteria established by my family. They've been married 40 years - how could they be wrong, right? I thought I was a great husband because I did what I thought made a great husband....not what my wife thought made a great husband.

this is nicely put.^^


Granted, she appreciated the things that I DID do - but it's like eating french fries without ketchup. You love the fries, but if you don't have the ketchup it isn't quite right...still good, but not "right". Well, I would guess that my W got tired of plain fries.

It's as if I was telling myself that I didn't need to make breakfast, walk in the park, or give up things I wanted because I was BEING a good husband. Selfish. Just selfish.
you don't have to repeat this so often to her.


The irony is that in the pursuit of being a perfect husband, I was largely imperfect to my W over time. Over the last 3 months I have had nothing but time to contemplate these things and lament my mistakes. It all appears so clearly now

-IF IT appears to be going badly or she needs to hear what you learned and you only have 20 seconds, say this below stuff...


I know what I need (or needed) to do and I don't have the chance because my W reached her breaking point with me. Now I am in a nice, big empty house that is serving as a reminder that you can acheive all you want, but without someone to bring it to it is meaningless. I hope that life grants me a second chance with my family to be a better husband.
****************

Worth noting....


I will also say this - if there has been one benefit, one MASSIVE 180 that has come of all of this, it has been with my son. I have always loved him - but my W was always the primary caretaker and did everything with him. Three or four months ago (still being a new father) I was scared to take him out on my own, didn't do diapers very well, didn't manage his meals, the list goes on. Now I kind of feel like Mr. Mom in a lot of regards and I like it. He calls for me, falls asleep on me, brings me books to read to him - it's been awesome. We are a team. I take him to daycare and pick him up, buy his clothes, the two of us go to dinner together - it's a total 180. I am a better dad than I thought I was ever capable of being. Well, I should say I am BECOMING a better dad than I thought I was capable of being. In return, he has given me so much love and joy without even knowing it that I get choked up thinking about it. I can only hope that this situation will eventually grant me an opportunity to be a better husband to my wife one day as well.

**************THIS ^^^ MUST BE SAID TO HER NEARLY VERBATIM

Did not MENTION changes to her, got this:

"I am glad to hear of your transformations. I wish I could’ve been instrumental in supporting them along the way, It is interesting to see that once I was gone, you were able to make changes. Whatever the case, I’m glad to hear about them."

*************

....And Finally......
Here is my problem - all of the issues that were problematic in our relationship have been my focus, W was exceptionally efficient in pointing them out. What I am struggling with is how to fix them if they centered around her and we are now living apart.

For example, she has said:

1. "You nit-pick me from the time you come home to the time you go to bed"

***I think she feels this way based on your OCD and your perfectionist tendencies which manifest itself how? By commenting negatively or commenting in a way that would usually NOT be seen as complimentary...plus you with held compliements and positive feedback from her

Sooo, imo, it makes sense that she feels this way b/c most of your comments or their ratio of bad to good, has to have been mainly negative...

2. "There is no love in this house" See above...one of her love languages sound like words of affirmation....and the other is quality time together...why do you say her LL was gift giving? I'm curious why you believe that or IF you now see it differently...

3. "Living with you is like having a boss" See above and NOTE that you are different NOW so #1-3 don't really count anymore...right?

4 ."We want different things out of life" ahh but You both want another child now...that's something you both want...and time together and the 'little things' too...so what else?

5. "You treat life like it's a dress rehearsal" I've said this to my and for me it means thtat you defer gratification too much/too long, so that you'll turn 50 and realize that your knee hurts too much to take that hiking vacation you talked about for years... Well, demonstrate how you are different now by taking time to smell the roses.

I have had plenty of time to reflect on these, and though I do not agree with all of them (any of them, really) I can see how she arrived at some of these conclusions. How do I 180 these if they are so very much centered around her perception of me?

I see how she can have her perceptions as described above. They are along the same lines as things you have identified except not having love in the house. YOu FELT Love but the expressions that came from your mouth were not mostly or even often, complimentary.

She sought positive feedback from you and you shut that down. But you were fine telling her where she was not meeting THE OFFICIAL standards as established by your parents...who, btw, I do NOT want to invite to my house b/c lowering standards for housework is among the healthiest things I've ever done!


Here are the things I could have done better relating to the list above:

1.) I could have learned to live with imperfections a little better. Though I don't think it nit-picked, she felt I did - so I could have held my tongue on matters that didn't really weigh much. She would say I was nit-picking her if I picked up the baby's toys when I came home, or if I asked her if she fed the dog when I got home from work. I don't THINK that's nit-picking, but if I work off of her perceptions then I could have just accepted that she had everything under control and not ask anything potentially "judging" when I got home. I will admit that I am a bit of an OCD neat freak. 180 = relax and accept the imperfections in life as evidence that someone that loves you is there.
say this^^^ to her (and say it to yourself, every day..especially before you walk into the house.)


2.) That one I just don't get. Every night I fell asleep with my arms around her and woke up the same way. I would kiss her and our son good-bye in the morning and rush home at the end of the day to be with them. I spoiled her when I could and tried to tend to all of her needs.

i think you mean you gave her things. That's YOUR love language of giving love...maybe not what she needed OR maybe not what she needed, given that other parts were missing.

Maybe I just missed the mark on what she interpreted as "love". What I could have done differently is tell her that I love her every day, show more affection, hold her hand more in puplic (never really did that much), bring flowers every now and then, rub her back whenever she asked, and so on. The 180 here would be all of those things above, but she isn't around anymore. Even before she moved out she wasn't interested in it. This is one that centers 100% around her that I can't 180. The best I can do is try to show as much love to our son as I can, and that is easy to do.


I think you are right here^^^....so do it for him...

3.) This one is very related to #1. I think she believed that everything had to be in state of perfection for me to be happy and if it wasn't, I would blame her and be angry. This just wasn't true in my eyes, but I see her perception and need to deal with it. The 180 here would be to relax and learn to live with things that are not perfect. To know that the counters won't always be clean and the cabinets might just always be a mess - and just let it go. How do I 180 this in her eyes being in her own condo now?

idk...let her see some less neatness in your place?


4.) This one is matter of perception as well. We spent three years focusing on the one things that we both wanted - a child. We went through a brutal infertility process that had 4 failed procedures and one successful one (thank God). That process was so intense and emotion-packed we had little time to focus on anything else we wanted in life. Then when the baby came, we were so wrapped up in being new parents that we didn't talk about what else we wanted in life (travel, retirement, style of life, etc.). She had only expressed that she wanted another baby and I did not immediately agree (though I did not disagree, either). In an argument before she moved out I asked her what she wanted out of life and she just snapped "thanks for asking after 8 years" - and left the house. The 180 here could be (or could have been) sitting down when "the iron is cold" and asking her excatly what it was she wanted out of life and try to map a plan to get there together. Sad thing is, I would like another child too - and we seems miles away from there.

maybe that^^^ can be said somewhere along the way...


5.) I think this was her way of saying that "you think you have all the time in the world to live" - I.E. - let's hurry up and have another baby. I will admit that it is hard for me to make big life decisions without having a full plan in front of me.

sure must be hard to be you. our son was born prematurely...by 5 years...you just deal with life as it comes with your "outlined plan" as your guide. It can't be rigid...or you'll fail OR feel you're failing and that's no way to live.


It is nearly impossible to create an 18 year plan for a child before it is even born.

Crimson...this is me personally talking and maybe I'm not hearing you right but to me this is, of course, IMPOSSIBLE. What does that even mean?

What if your next child is musically gifted? What happens to your "athletic plans" then? What if she's clumsy? Or bad at math?

IMO, All you have to "plan" for with kids-

is putting food on the table and making sure they know that they are loved, valuable people in the world. Lose the illusions of perfection or uber planning.


So I always wondered "how will we pay fo college", "will we have enough money", "will I be a good dad" - and so on. This wasn't just with the baby, but I was cautious and conservative with a lot of my judgements and that might have driven her nuts. The 180 here would have been just to simply accept living without all the answers and having faith that things would work out in the end.

YES YES to this^^^

I should have put myself farther out on the branch than I did, but I was terrfied of failure as husband and father.

So even in her absence I am trying to work on those 180s, but without her around it is difficult. Not just because she is not there to witness, but because so many of them are directly related to her. Right now communication is highly limited so I am at a loss for exactly how to handle things right now.

I will focus on myself, but I would be a liar if part of me didn't want her to see changes. I want her to believe that coming home will be better than living alone....I want her to believe that it will be better than what she left, but I just don't know how to get that across to her.


Tell her that^^^ and ask her how you can do it...


Right now, I feel like she hates me and the lack of communication and contact only pulls her farther and farther away from me - not towards me like I would have hoped. Maybe it will in time. I am hopeful.

Forgot to mention - W also said that I was too disconnected from the family. She said that I was on my iPad, BlackBerry, Mac too much. Granted, she did the exact same things more or less - but again, I can see her perspective.

There was a debate earlier this year in which she asked me to stop bringing my iPad/BlackBerry to bed. For several weeks I stopped. Then I would come upstairs to go to bed and she would be typing away on her BlackBerry. To me that said "this isn't a problem anymore" - so I brought mine back to bed. Never should have done that, because she was angry about it and let me know during the D-bomb drop in September.

She said I never sat at the dinner table with her and our son. Further supporting her claim that I was disconnected. I can see how she would see it that way - but whenever there were actual "dinners" where we cooked I was always at the table. If I walked through the door at 5:45 and she was feeding herself with one hand and feeding the baby with the other and there was really nothing made for dinner - sure, I would grab a sandwich and sit on the couch and watch the news. I retrospect, I could have done that differently if I new that it was that upsetting to her. Notwithstanding, any time she asked me to come to the table I always did.

I never FELT disconnected from them - I loved being around them, they were the center of my world. However, I can see how she could see it that way. My 180 now is to spend as much time engaged to my son as I can when he is with me. Hence the hikes, trips to the zoo, etc. - I make it about him as much as I can. Again, the down side is that even though it is a good change that I am making for myself, she will never have a chance to see it - unless I just go and trumpet it in her face, which I will not do.