I'm putting the links from my OOOOOOOOOOLD posts. Not because I expect anyone to read them, they're just there in case I want to go back and "reminisce."
We now live in a society that doesn't reward personal responsibility....the schools are too hard, everybody is a winner, and hard work isn't rewarded but almost frowned upon. So why should it be different in a failed marriage...it is always the other spouses fault. I am not a religious man, but they had it right when they said he who hasn't sinned can throw the first stone. Hence in our world the biggest step we can make is not blaming the runaway spouse, but instead looking in the mirror and say "What could I have done differently?". Now that doesn't mean you are the cause of his actions....just taking ownership in our part of what has happened.
Think of your thoughts and feelings as being "theories" or "ideas." They might be true. Then again, they might not be. Once you learn to question the validity of your patterns of thought, you might realize that things are not quite as black-and-white as you may have previously assumed.
Ali- as someone who posted to you, and sincerely sought to help you save your marriage if it was at all possible, I will try to answer some of your questions (I will preface it by saying that from what I know of your situation, I would probably feel the same way towards your H as you do. I will also add, I don't know how I would feel if I only heard his side of the story).
Addressing your later statements first, the goal of winning a WAW back is not to have her return to the "same guy again." Instead, the goal is for the DBing spouse to examine what it was that his W fell in love with and Change his behavior, making a life change, not a temporary one. As you have read on the boards, DBing should be a way of life. Sincere change, not tricks. I don't recall from your other posts if you picked up DBing or if you have read the whole book but that is what Michele is prescribing- change one's behavior, understand what your spouse is feeling and stop doing that which continues to make your spouse resent you.
Last I saw, your H has continuing the same behaviors that got you to this WAW point so of course you have no reason to feel differently unless you decide you want to change the dynamics of your relationship but that seems unfair, doesn't it?
As you have noticed many WAS's are also involved in EA's or PA's and this is why many Dbers talk about "Alien abduction." This spouse who promised to love honor and cherish till death "do us part" is involved with someone else, this feels like this is not the person the DBer married. Often rage comes from the WAW and many times the DBer did not have a deep understanding of how truly badly the marriage was failing, trouble yes but near fatal? From a DBer's perspective, they are wondering, "who abducted my spouse?" I have never referred to my wife's dissatisfaction with our marriage as an alien abduction and have truly sought to understand how she got to feel the way she did an das you may recall, my marriage is very much recovering.
I think you make a great point about how a WAW can feel much better once they drop the bomb, separate or actually file. The burden has been lifted and they are on track to solve their problem the only way they see they can. From the WAW's perspective, they may have pleaded, requested, hinted or demanded change to no avail. To a WAW, DBing may be seen as too little too late, or just a temporary fix so your insight will be very helpful to Dbers as to why the WAW does not change their mind when a DBer does a 180. This is why Michele emphasizes "patience." In many cases it took years of effort by the WAW to try to get a DBer to change and it may take years of DBing to show the WAW that the DBer really did learn what their spouse wants and needs. When a WAW (my wife as an example) sees that the changes are sincere and designed to be long lasting, they sometimes chose to give the marriage another chance.
DBing is not about manipulation but more about understanding interpersonal relationships, learning about one's spouses deep hurt, learning what behaviors trigger what kind of reactions and making changes. If I learn that defending my actions to my spouse only make her more angry but that expressing understanding about her hurt calms her down such that I can later, calmly talk with her about the issue, is that manipulation or is it learning to better communicate?
Ali, I have felt your frustration with your H, and you have done more to come here and ask questions than most other WAW (or future WAW's) have done. Your comments and those of Nicky and others are helpful to many Dbers who are trying to understand what their spouses are going through. I wish you well, however things turn out but it is my wish that your H was a serious Dber and that his changes became real and long lasting such that you could give your twins a household with both a mother and father who love each other and them.
C2H
BTW, it has Michelles stamp of approval:
Originally Posted By: Michele
Dear Committed2Him, I couldn't have responded any better than you even if I tried (Even if I tried really hard ) I just love your wise response and I'm going to post Ali's question and your response where it belongs- the wise advice forum. Thanks for being here and helping others as you do. Michele
Sometimes after reading about doing a 180 people wonder, "isn't this technique like game playing? Isn't it manipulative?" Continuing to do the same old thing even though it doesn't work is no less game-like than doing something different. In fact, since relationships are like seesaws, if one person expresses all the optimism and confidence, the other person is free to feel all the pessimism and insecurity. Spouses often balance each other out in this way. When one person's views are extreme, it forces his or her partner to adopt an equally extreme view in the opposite direction.
This is just a part of the process. A lot can happen before the papers are filed and processed.
In the mean time, this is the time when we learn just as much of what we are made. This is the time when we let go, lovingly. And where we also let go any anger, resentment, and bitterness that we might want to feel.
That stuff can kill us and certainly isn't healthy for us.
Instead of casting judgment on your W, work to find it in yourself to accept this is the path that she is choosing (at this time) and support her (but you don't have to help her or do it for her) in achieving her goals. Like you would help any friend achieve their goals.
It is up to you how you want to handle this. There continues to be no right or wrong. Just choices, dignity, and integrity.
KD's post to Snowman struck a chord with me.
In a sense, my sit is similar to Snowman.
Finances are an issue between W and I. After the birth of our first child, 26 years ago, I was the soul bread winner. Neither of us considered the money that came in as "yours" and "mine." We didn't spend a cent without consulting each other.
About 10 years ago, I started working from home. Our kids (except for our autistic son) were independent enough that they didn’t need her constant attention, and since I was at home, I could take over a large part of caring for S2 (autistic), so W went back to school, and then back to work.
So, now, W had “her own money.” I never considered “my” money to be anything other than “ours.”
For the most part, I still don’t, but I have indulged myself on occasion. The biggy was a trip to Asia with D1. That one didn’t particularly bother my W, but she gets her back up anytime I express my discomfiture with her spending. In fact, I don’t have a problem with her expenditures – whether on herself or for family purposes. My problem is that she just goes ahead and spends without so much as telling me.
Basically, W got a life, and to her, my only purpose on this planet is to facilitate that. We no longer do anything together. No longer consult on family issues. She does her thing on the assumption that I’ll take care of S2 whilst she’s out.
I’m lonely!
So... I hear all those DB-ers out there telling me to “get a pair,” “don’t be a doormat,” stand up to her. GAL. Protect yourself.
Here’s the kicker. I don’t believe that following her lead is consistent with being the Andy I want to be.
There continues to be no right or wrong. Just choices, dignity, and integrity.
There’s no right or wrong in the sense that I am right, and W is wrong. However, for my own sense of dignity and integrity, I have to do what I believe in. In other words, W has to do what she thinks is right. And regardless of what she believes, I have to do what I think is right.
There’s no right or wrong in the sense that I am right, and W is wrong. However, for my own sense of dignity and integrity, I have to do what I believe in. In other words, W has to do what she thinks is right. And regardless of what she believes, I have to do what I think is right.
There’s no right or wrong in the sense that I am right, and W is wrong. However, for my own sense of dignity and integrity, I have to do what I believe in. In other words, W has to do what she thinks is right. And regardless of what she believes, I have to do what I think is right.
Well crap......hit submit before I was ready...
I will say this, there is no right or wrong way to do anything in this...
There is , however , a way to do it that is right or wrong for your situation...
You are only a doormat if you allow yourself to be one...
You are only taken advantage of , if you allow that to happen..
Do what is right for you, Andy. Be the person you ARE and that you want to be. Be aware of and responsible to your actions.
Whomever wants to be part of your life, because of who you are and the genuine nature of your being... open up to allow them in...
Shed yourself of vampires. They hurt us in more ways than we sometimes see.
Remember: You cannot help others unless you help yourself.
We hear that saying and often relate it to money.
Here's the reality that is known by nature... If we do not eat, we cannot hunt to feed others. If we do not take care of our personal safety, we cannot protect others. If we do not love ourselves... we cannot love others... If we are not who we are... if we are not genuine in ourselves... we cannot support others to be genuine in themselves...
