25yearsmlc message to peeps

[WenikiTiki]

I am thinking of making a "25yearsmlc" t-shirt......

And want to say thanks to 25 and the host of others who are so giving of their time. My sanity may well be due to all the wonderful folks on this site!

SERIOUSLY!

[25yearsmlc]

I am so glad you are writing your story. As those above me have said you give awesome, thoughtful posts to people really getting to the heart of DBing. You do a great service by commenting on our threads, it helps more then you could ever imagine. Thank you!

My questions for you that maybe you can answer in future chapters: Did you H ever say he was sorry or acknowledge that he was wrong & messed up? How could you forgive him for the 2 years of heartbreak??

I hope it's fully answered, as far as MY experience went, in the later pieces.

and maybe I'll repeat myself later by "going out of order here" but what the heck...here goes...

Brooklyn not every man SAYS how he feels. But yes my h did say he was sorry. However, that was more about the Alaskan debacle, financially, and how it really really did not work out for him or us at all. We lost a fortune and he/we put our family through so much. It was not, at first, the grand apology I thought I needed.

I did NOT say "I told you so" and that was an achievement that some of you relate to. Sometimes it's the most loving thing NOT to say.

While there in Alaska with us, he said "this was a huge mistake" apologized and offered to leave "IF [I, 25] WANTED TO leave" but I said "Oh no no you don't. Not after all this dragging us up here (b/c I did join him with d11 for a year eventually)

I said,
"sure we I both now agree it was a mistake so we leave b/c YOU "get it" and YOU SAY IT, not b/c I 'demanded' it" or you'll later change it around and say I made you leave and we'll go around again with this." I needed HIM to make the choice to leave. Which he and we did.

So we planned to leave in the late summer after the few great months of fun finally arrive in Alaska. But h's mother got terminal cancer so we left earlier

but without a big traumatic awkward goodbye b/c we had a damn good reason.

So his "heroes" -the doctors who pursued him for years knowing it might end his marriage as it had ended two other's, had no strong argument for detaining him further. And he had seen enough of their business ways to know we had to go. Thank God.

A year later we had a backslide fight, and I was NOT going to be complacent again. I firmly but calmly said "I have little reserve for round 2 of this".

"We need to get the tools for this (=we were still piecing, plus dealing with a dying parent) and if we were not going to get the tools like we had in our earlier marriage before all the crazy stuff
(see, we had gone to a great workshop 16 years earlier- but it wasn't offered again for months, was on the east coast, and we were rusty)

Then we discovered "Retrovaille", a retreat for marriages in crisis. It was offered the next month - ON OUR ANNIVERSARY in a nearby city...."hello universe? Yeah we got the message and we'll go!"

Even though I felt the worst of the storm had passed, like I said, I had little reserves in me for much turmoil, PLUS I knew another storm (mils' cancer) was going to be a tough one.

Retrovaille got us back on track. I'll say more about that later but for now, it was at that retreat, that I saw a deeper regret from my h that I felt I needed to see.

But then on the last day I saw an even more profound remorse from him and a genuine apology, with tears, for the damage he'd done to our marriage and more importantly to me, the harm he'd done to the r's he had with our children.
He discussed their r's like a life and death matter to him and said he hoped "they could be saved" and he meant every word.

My h is not a man who cries easily or often and I was very moved. He got it.So yes he was sorry.

So your next question was...

How do you forgive two years of heartbreak?

Well It wasn't a solid two years of non stop heart break b/c I GAL big time....and so I really changed.

I believed good memories would resurface and my old h would return BUT I ALSO BELIEVED HE MIGHT NOT...and that I'd be alright either way.

I got my self esteem back, partly by coming here and reading and seeing a good t, a great DB coach but also, mainly by GAL. That "GAL" stuff gets hammered here for a reason.

As i came to believe I'd be alright in the long run, no matter what, I think I radiated that belief. I'm sure I did. It's one thing to fake it til you make it but once you really believe it, it shows.

I faced the fact that if h had died, I'd only grieve for so long before I'd move forward in my life. I began to envision what that would look like. What if h had died and years had passed? Would I BE HAPPY?

I knew I would not shrivel up and lay in the fetal position, with kids to raise. So what would that happy life look like?

I knew I had an example to set and that I also am someone willing to work to be happy. I think it's our main job here on earth, give and receive love, which is creating happiness.

Then I began to create it in my present life. I think that attracts the WAS more BUT it was Not the goal...yes it's a paradox...

(YES SOMETIMES...b/c you don't need them anymore and you're just a super happy contented person to be with And that's attractive...SOMETIMES you get them back...

But sometimes it's too late or things beyond your control occurred, so they stay GONE. That's when you learn to forgive them anyhow and forgive yourself)

We are all flawed humans on our own journeys in different places on the path.

But as I began to believe in my newly happy future -w/o h, our kids got happier and settled and h saw that. He saw a happy home without him.


There are those who believe that is risky b/c it eases the WAS's guilt. I say PHOOEY...why?

b/c 1) I think it's a rare man who wants to come home to a sad miserable home out of guilt, AND STAYS

and 2) what choice do you really have? Being miserable is super appealing...you think showing that you are SO SAD makes you attractive? It does NOT prove your love...It only guarantees YOU being miserable. It does nothing to make you appealing to your ex...and it sukks for your kids too.

**IF your spouse left you b/c you neglected or abused them, then your GAL has to have a different flavor, obviously. But I still contend that morose self pity and "profound regret repeatedly expressed" is a drag to be around.**

The WAS may see a happy family without him there & tell themselves for weeks or months that "the kids and ex are fine without me so it's great I'm with OW now..." but if you think the alternative is more appealing, you are using it as an excuse to wallow in pity and
NOT do the work it takes to create your own happiness which, in fairness

was always solely your responsibility.

Besides, I say it's more likely the WAS begins to let good memories resurface when he SEES or hears of more of them being made in the present (gives him something to miss)

and he allows himself the luxury of putting aside his guilt to wonder...what if he'd made a mistake? After all, if ex w is happy now, maybe SHE was not the problem...

In MY situation--

He saw the contrast in the life HE was creating for himself, cold and dark and alone, working on the exciting but freezing cold tundra and NOT making a gazillion dollars,

with the life we had to offer him IF it was still available to him...and ours was a warm, loving home w/laughter and growing children becoming interesting adolescents and adults-which is what it should have been all along.
MY responsibility and MY job to change it. Which I did.

Even with all the anger I felt, and all the crap that got dumped on me, for the most part I managed to use all my acting skills

(**Seriously- there ought to be a category at the Oscars for DBers who can ACT AS IF and pull it off. I would at least get a nomination)

I faked meetings I had to go to at first, implied and dressed for non dates, invented a few new friends and did this for maybe 2 months - until they were real meetings and real groups I had joined and old friends I reconnected with, and new ones I met. Also lost weight (of course! It's the grief stricken diet combined with "fury marches" for 4 miles listening to my IPOD playlists of "Motivational" or 'Angry and Okay with it" or "Optimistic" or "MY FUTURE DREAM OM" music...and my "Power of Now" on tape-remarkably soothing, and Marianne Williamson and Wayne Dyer on just how to change OUR lives...ourselves.

& hey, H was on the tundra alone (as far as I know) and he sure called often. Like every day, usually more than once.

So after all that, we began piecing, but then faced another parent's death, and then we went to Retrovaille, NOW, yes I do believe he was sorry.

And once you see their real regret and remorse, imo, you don't push for more.
Listen to them...and then listen some more. You'll be surprised what they'll confess if you don't interrupt to agree with how crappy they were.

I told a woman I know, what my h said at that time, in his tears. She asked bitterly whether I'd "taken the opportunity to point out to him JUST HOW LONG he had been such a fool"????"

I never looked at her the same again...no, I did NOT take THAT opportunity to dig the knife in deeper. I went over and comforted him in his remorse and grief and his implied request for my forgiveness...which I gave him in full. It was a holy experience, really.


H was humbled. He's a proud man.


Was he humbled "enough" To equal my humiliation or the length of time he was gone and I was hurt??

Hell no! Or MAYBE?....

I'm not God doling out "equal" punishments and only God knows what is in our hearts or theirs.

I would literally have to make h read ALL my journals and posts here to have him know what I felt... AND THEN maybe

he'd feel so defensive OR he'd see something validly different from me, from HIS viewpoint! Yikes...no thanks.

So I gave up on "equal in the law remorse" illusions for many reasons. Mostly they are punitive goals under the guise of "teaching them a lesson" and don't belong in marriage.

But another reason is b/c we truly do not know what they suffered until if and when they get in touch with it themselves AND IF and when they decide to share it with US...which may never happen.

But you have to have some idea that they really regret hurting you - or you'll always fear a repeat.

That's a legitamate safety concern to have.

Finally, I think when I shed a few tears to myself on some of those dark nights, he must have ached to hug his kids (h had been a busy dad but an involved one when he could be. They nurtured him)

He MUST have yearned to know what the hell he was missing. And it was a lot.

(SIDENOTE-when I was a new mom, our son was 15 months old and I joined the Army. I was away from him for 16 weeks, with some weekends home...I missed him SO MUCH that some nights I could NOT call home or I'd be too homesick and distracted to study which I had to do. As wacky as that sounds, I get it. And I think it explains SOME of what the no contact WAS are doing. They feel shame on top of missing their kids...too much to handle...so they withdraw and retreat and if they have OP to comfort them, so much the better....for a time...)

H missed so much Like proms, and first dates, and ALL the youngest d's games out of a whole season.

He does not know half of their high school friend's names well at all. Even today he confuses their names b/c he was gone and he can't get that back.

He can never get that back. And after losing his mother, I think it hit him even more.

So who knows what HE went through?

I am more convinced than ever that h was very lonely and depressed and at some point h woke up, looked around and saw that his "dreams" had NOT worked out too well.

Lucky for all of us, our communication lines were open and thanks to DBing, he did not feel all doors were shut to him. So he reached out and with the guidance of my DB coach, and the big Guy, I was able to feel safe enough to try reconciling but I was very cautious.

I had created a good fun semi-stable life for me and the kids and was not anxious to go back to crayCrazy land.

Hope that answers your question on "how to" except for one last "tip."

The HOW TO FORGIVE?? methods...what are they? Who knows? I found a few that helped me. We all know the Stop Sign one and that's not just for affairs but for any anger triggers.

I read some of Marianne Williamson's books on "Handling Fear & Anger" and "return to love" . For some, she's too new agey and for others she's too religious.

For ME, she had great exercises on forgiving and letting go.

Simple things like mantras that she told herself which I put on my Ipod in my own words to give myself little pep talks, short phrases to keep me calm, and to make me stay on message.

Make no mistake, this DBing IS YOUR CAMPAIGN TO SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE...

SO GET YOUR "PLATFORM" OF IDEAS, AND STAY ON MESSAGE...don't get sidetracked by small details or fight stupid battles, avoid backslides and identify them earlier and earlier. Know & show your changes, and keep them going. And

Stay on message.

I also found forgiveness or letting go, to be too much at times. THEN, I'd go somewhere private, maybe the shower or bath, and I would orally turn over my problems to God (or your Higher Power or the Universe, etc)

I'd literally say "I turn over my anger and pain to You, God" b/c it was too heavy for me, too much. Figure out what words are authentic for you to release your pain, if only temporarily, to get through that hour or day or night....

Thinking those words in my head, then saying them out loud AND hearing them is a proven tool for memorization and for sinking in a message to yourself...it's a mantra, if you will.

It also worked as a retention tool and it does sink in even if only for a few hours at a time. So I might say it 100 times to God while in the shower...

Like right before I had to speak to my spouse or see him. It helped reduce the number of escalated conversations. I also told myself that if the love we had was ever real and I KNEW it was, that there was a good chance it was alive in there somewhere underneath whatever was covering it.

I trusted that it was there and that IF it remained hidden, I'd be alright anyhow.

Hey Brooklyn, if you truly do NOT think you can ever forgive him, (and a few people really do know they just lack the genes or have too much of a history with that issue-- I did not know whether I could but I knew, EVENTUALLY that I wanted to try...even that took time b/c I was sorely tempted to dump him too.)

But if you think it's a no go and you've soul searched, then let him go now and move forward in your life.

Cut your losses and get to the other side that much quicker. (There IS another side to this ordeal, and it's called some PEACE!!)


FWIW I happen to think forgiveness is a learned skill, and just like sex and financial management, it's a topic too little emphasized in life. SO I WORKED ON LEARNING HOW TO DO IT...

met people at a workshop I mentioned earlier (it's an individual personal growth workshop called "Essential Experience" and it's mostly in Philadelphia-check their website-most profound experience of my life AND of h's btw)...PS--it's NOT Landmark, or EST or Imago and does not actively recruit you to get more money and nope, I'm not paid to mention it here. And nope, it's not a weirdo cult and you don't get naked, etc.

AT Essential Experience, and to a lesser extent at Retrovaille, we met people who had a LOT MORE TO FORGIVE than we ever could come up with...like forgiving abusive parents, abandoning fathers, drunk drivers who had killed your only child...letting go of their pain and their baggage and moving on, "from this day forward."

When I saw THEM forgive, I really made some progress.

Good luck, hope this helps.

[25yearsmlc]

I am thinking of making a "25yearsmlc" t-shirt......

And want to say thanks to 25 and the host of others who are so giving of their time. My sanity may well be due to all the wonderful folks on this site!

SERIOUSLY!

thank you sincerely. But you'd have to put a WAS2Sad ahead of my "name' b/c he got me through a lot, as did FIB, (faith is believing) and faithful husband...and Baseball Annie and Holly06 & others...

SOME of these folks are still around.

and they are frickin' geniuses and kind hearted too. Saved my sanity and definitely that helped me as a mother so even if things went south in the m, I know I was a better mom for their help. Avail yourselves...

But side note---if you get good advice and then don't take it, beware.

It does frustrate the vet. Everyone and I mean everyone needs reminding and we backslide

but there are those who simply ignore the advice, DO nothing different and then come back to repeat themselves. They cannot see how stuck they are HERE so how can they see how stuck they are in their lives?

Too many people who CAN benefit need help too, so there is probably some rationing going around if that makes sense...

present company excluded...just noting it.

Thanks again, everyone. And you're very welcome too!

[labug]

"I believed good memories would resurface and my old h would return BUT I ALSO BELIEVED HE MIGHT NOT...and that I'd be alright either way.

I got my self esteem back, partly by coming here and reading and seeing a good t, a great DB coach but also, mainly by GAL. That "GAL" stuff gets hammered here for a reason.

As i came to believe I'd be alright in the long run, no matter what, I think I radiated that belief. I'm sure I did. It's one thing to fake it til you make it but once you really believe it, it shows."

I think this is the key and I will add this to my DB Words of Wisdom file.

Thanks.

[labug]

Correction, I just bookmarked the whole thing. This will take many readings to digest.

[LITB]

25,

Thank you for taking the time to post a thread with your story. You give great advice and are an inspiration to many of us.

I look forward to following along.

[Autumn Leaves]

Thank you for taking this time 25, I know that I have really gotten so much from your posts.

Recently my H mentioned going to counseling together, and I haven't found a pro marriage counselor nearby yet. I am wondering if I should mention Essential Experience to him to see if it is worth it for us. It could be a good jump start for both of us as I continue to look for a MC. I know that I personally can learn a lot from it (forgiveness, etc). I am reading up on it now. Thanks for mentioning it.

[rickb89]

Correction, I just bookmarked the whole thing. This will take many readings to digest.

How do you bookmark posts that you want to keep and reread? Thanks.

[Accuray]

25, what is this "alt universe" you refer to in your first message?

Accuray

[ces67]

Thanks 25! So good to read a happy ending of a person who became who they wanted to be AND restored a marraige to something new and worthwile. I needed this today. Thanks.