I just wanted to give you a short history of the problems that have led up to my current status:
My wife is moving out in a week, and says its preamble to divorce.
About two years ago (Jan 1 2010) I started what some might call a spiritual awakening…I didn’t like where I was physically (40lbs over-weight), and was wise enough to know that if I didn’t address it, I would live a truncated life. So I became a vegan, and dropped 30 lbs. At which point I felt pretty bullet-proof so I also stopped taking my depakote (I’ve been diagnosed with bi-polar) in March of 2010. Nothing terrible happened, but I continued to search and learned more things, and pretty much changed my views of the world radically. I no longer support war or violence of any sort. I stopped playing games like Modern Warfare, quit watching television, and started to read and research many things outside of normal reality. Although I very much believe in God, I no longer believe any religion is necessary to come closer to God.
As nice as this awakening was for me, it obviously came as a big shock to my wife. Like Michelle says in her book, it’s not necessarily the message, it’s the messenger. And I definitely wasn’t the best messenger in the world. My attitude was terrible. We had a few arguments about it, and things for the most part seemed good for me. My wife works with a lot of men, and one of them in particular became a friend of hers. I didn’t really think much of it at first, but she kept throwing him in my face from time to time, and I eventually asked her if anything was going on. She denied it, but I was still uneasy, because they both worked in the same area, on many of the same projects.
Come September 16th, my wife and I were laying in bed and we were talking, and she all of a sudden started crying and said that I finally sounded like my old self. I couldn’t understand why she was so upset, but she started sobbing uncontrollably. As twisted as it might sound, I was actually happy that she was crying, because at least she was opening up to me.
But the next morning she basically said she was no longer in love with me, and she felt terrible…Now I went on for nearly a month and a half begging and pleading. There was also one instance on October 17th of this year where I talked her into having sex with me before she was ready. Of course it was awful, and she hated me for doing it. She no longer hates me, but she hasn’t forgiven me…and what’s more, a few days after that she had a make out session with the OM in his car after they got out of a meeting. She confessed this to me a few days after it happened, and again, we had more out of control discussions about us and our relationship.
Nothing physical happened, but there were points where I was lying on the ground crying my eyes out. Obviously, not very cool and composed. Thanks to my own willpower and the direction from my coach, I’ve gotten a lot better. However I’m still scared that she means it when she says she wants to divorce me, but like Michelle says, “why not give your marriage the benefit of the doubt?” Why not err on the side of caution, and be patient.
It’s my hope that when she gets out there on her own, she will find out how difficult things are, and more importantly, she’ll find out how much she truly loves me and needs me. I have been very supportive of her decisions, and am not letting my feelings trump my behavior.
Last, and definitely not least is my 3 year old daughter. I have great concerns for her well being despite what any book says about amicable divorce—it’s still a terrible legacy to leave for my daughter. As a son of divorced parents, I so badly want to break this cycle and reconcile our relationship, for my wife, my daughter and myself. Despite my change in beliefs, I still believe in the power of prayer, so if you wouldn’t mind taking a second, please pray for us.
Thanks.
"Things are never bad; it's the way you think about them." -Epictetus
On Wednesday 01/4/12 W signed her six month lease, and started packing stuff up that night. She loaded up her car with about half of her clothes and dropped them off at her new place yesterday during lunch or after work. She also met with a divorce ATTY to help draw up a separation agreement. When she got home last night after dropping off stuff and meeting with the attorney she was in a really good mood. I had mixed feelings about that because my coach has told me to tell her I just want her to be happy. I do want her to be happy of course, but I’d like her to be happy with me.
Is it normal for the WAS to have this great show of happiness upon escaping what they currently see as an inoperable situation? Does anyone have any input on that? I suppose I could try to figure it out, but I guess it doesn’t really matter. It’s much nicer to have Positive interactions with her instead of what I’ve been getting.
Since September, she’s basically been in sand-bag mode. Sand-bag mode involves no talking about anything normal couples would talk about—no sharing of feelings, no real sharing of anything other than facts. In the past, Sand-bag mode drove me crazy, since I came from a family of folks that talk about there feelings. But thanks to my coach, Chuck (Not sure if I can say that or not. I guess they’ll edit that out if I’m not supposed to mention his name, but I think he deserves some credit, because he’s helped me out a lot), I have been doing a much better job of just being nice, and not letting my feelings dictate my actions.
Wait and watch/Positive things: 1. Passed a test: she asked me to come in and meet with the ATTY to help draw up the separation agreement (I’m scared, see below). I was very cool and told her I was open to meeting with him whenever she wanted. (A part of me still says…It’s just a separation, it’s not divorce—we are just at separation. There’s still time to turn the ship around)
2. She sat down and watched a sit-com, and I sat down too and we shared some laughs, although I wasn’t making her laugh myself, we were still laughing in the same room.
3. This morning after I got dressed and walked into the kitchen, she said, “you have a flap up in the back, referring to one of my pockets.” Now I take pretty good care of myself, so I don’t know if she was checking me out, or what. However, I still found it to be a positive thing.
I fully admit that I’m scared of meeting with this Atty. I’m afraid it’s going to be similar to meeting with the useless therapists we met with in the past (good people with good intentions, just not helpful in the least). I’m afraid that I’m going to lose control of my confident and friendly demeanor and either start crying, or start lashing out.
I think the reason why marriage therapy doesn’t really work is because as a man you are locked into that comfy chair for 50 minutes (I think this is more difficult for men then women, and perhaps one of the reasons men don’t like marriage therapy). When you’re talking with the WAS at home, and you feel yourself starting to lose it, you can step out of the room, go for a walk, etc. etc. You can’t smoothly escape a therapist’s office.
So I’m still positive, and I’m still staying focused. I’m doing great at passing tests, and I know that I’m doing this for myself, and not just to get my wife back (I’m applying these principles in my every day life as well, even in traffic!) It’s very positive for me to think that I can become someone who never loses there temper. That’s a great skill that the most successful people exhibit.
Another question I have, when my wife moves out…I was thinking of moving the bedroom we used to have upstairs down to the first floor. I was also thinking of putting my clothes into the closet that she’s vacating. Long-story, but suffice to say—we have an old house, so closet space and storage space in general is somewhat limited. I’m just not too sure how these actions would be perceived by her. One of the forum posters said, “When in doubt, don’t do anything.” Perhaps I should just ask my wife. Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks for reading, I know my posts are sort of lengthy. But I’m very thankful to have this forum to journal on.
"Things are never bad; it's the way you think about them." -Epictetus
Hi Elmo, just an FYI, I am not really posting on the site right now, but want you to know that people are reading your posts. While you may be hoping for feedback, if you are positive and appear to be doing a good job in dealing with things, other members may have little to offer for suggestions.
And you do appear to be doing well, I might add. As anxious and distraught as you may be, your positive attitude is showing through here, which is great because it is also likely showing up in the rest of your life, too. If others are seeing it, your W can't NOT notice, as well. Believe that is to your benefit... why would someone want to leave someone who is "up beat" even in stress.
Your use of the term "sand bag" is normal. Many of us LBSers get the same. And yes, the WAS sees their "freedom" as some indicator that their fantasy life is just beginning or at least close, around the corner. Reality will catch up to them, soon enough. Unless your W isn't grounded in reality at all... in which case... might be a good time to rethink your position... j/k, of course...
Yes, guys are guys, built of the Mars' clothe... if you are familiar with DB principles, you may want to consider your 180s... are you normally the "stiff upper lip" kind of guy, or do you sometimes or often show your soft side? If the former, than it may be a good 180 to show a bit of your sensitive side to your W. If you're all logic and function, your W may not know how much you care. OTOH, if your a bit of a "nice guy" and your W has seen tears in your eyes over your sitch, then a good 180 may be to "grab a backbone" as it were and be happy and pleasant about this "separation opportunity / gift" your W has presented you with.
Regarding changes you are considering around the house (and also consider changes in your own routines), definitely do something if it is what you would want. Understand that you can always change things back.
The changes can help with any cognitive dissonance you may be having and lead to better feelings and also, again your W may notice and will see you moving forward with your life. Even if your M does tank, you are showing you have the strength to carry on, regardless.
Yes, there is a couple concept to keep in mind. One is - Keep the road home paved and smooth (ie. try not to rock the boat). Another one is - If you want to have someone in your life, you have to ensure there is room for them.
Yet, we often find that people who make efforts to move on, will find their WAS become curious and start making efforts to reach out to the LBS... when the LBS is not needy, clingy, or otherwise pursuing the WAS... in an... ambivalent sort of way...
This is a slow forum on this board, so you may find yourself with more connections in the "Newcomers" forum. Although you are likely to find people connecting with you more on this forum, as time goes on.
One thing to understand is, post frequently (journaling is great) and try to keep your own sitch in a single topic until it reaches about 100 posts before beginning a new one. It helps other members be up to date and clear with your sitch. That does not mean you cannot move or start a new thread elsewhere... it's just a rule of thumb...
Kaffe, thank you for the great advice. It's great to get such positive feedback.
Tonight is the first night she's officially staying out of the house. She was gone all afternoon and it was hard feilding my 3 yo d's questions about when is mommy coming home. she spent most of the day shopping for stuff for the new place. I had some angry thoughts going through my head.
last night I got a terrible night's sleep and at about 1:30 in the am i backslid and tried to spy in my w's phone. but she had changed the swype code so i couldn't access it. this of course snet thoughts of the om racing through my head. I guess that's what I get for spying.
i'm really insecure that she's using this as a springboard to rekindle her relationship with this co-worker. although she defriended him on fb, and told me that she wasn't going to pursue him anymore. but back during the crazy times, she also used him as a verbal torcher device, because of course I wasn't in control of my emotions...I am now.
that being said, last night and today, was a mental storm of how to spy on the new place to see if she starts up with him again, or even thoughts of physically hurting the other guy, which is ridiculous. I am against violence, and using it will only create more of it. Not to mention the fact that I'm a father and a professional, who can't be running around beating people up like some school-boy. I did watch Mission Impossible (fun, but violent) the other night though...See, It's Tom Cruz's fault after all!
So when she left tonight, after putting d to sleep, I was sitting on the couch reading a book, I said, "Good bye." and she said, "Have a good night." Which is positive... she usually mutters good-bye so that it's barely audible. so that's a notch in the W&W (wait and watch) column! She also offered to give the Kindle back to me, which I thought was a nice gesture.
It is sort of funny though to look around the house and see what's missing. She took the in-house tool box, which gave me a little pang of heart-ache. But it's not a big deal, I keep all the good tools in my work-shop anyway.
So the plan tomorrow is to get up give my daughter a good breakfast and then head in to church. I'm afraid to tell my friends there that we are separated. I really haven't rehearsed how to say it, and honestly I don't want to. Maybe I'll skip tomorrow, but my daughter likes to go, and she's got a few little friends there. Plus, maybe I could put a note in the prayer request pan to pray for a family in crisis.
I'm also having a poker night in two weekends, and I'm not sure what to tell my buddies--many of whom I work with. I just don't want to keep fielding infinite questions over the next few months about how my w and I are doing.
I sort of made the mistake of telling a close coworker, she's like a den-mother to me. and she keeps asking me, and talking about it. I'm going to ask her not speak of it anymore, because I don't want it to get out.
Anyway, that's what's going on. I felt terrible much of today, but after she left, I got up, did some exercise, cleaned the bathroom a little bit, and journaled on dbforum--and you know what? I feel much better. Good night, and God bless.
"Things are never bad; it's the way you think about them." -Epictetus
Update: Perhaps I should just ask my wife. Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated.
NO do not ask her. I would start the LRT if you have not already.
There is a possibility that their is an OM, but if not she is confused and you must let her go.
Begging, pleading will not FIX this. You need to be strong and if you want to make the changes in the house do them for YOU, not as a tactic to get her back.
You are now on your own journey and she is on hers. GAL and continue to make changes for YOU.
Sunday night, she hasn't been as chipper Saturday and Sunday as she was on Friday. I'd like to say perhaps she's beginning to realize how difficult this will be--but as we all know it takes time to move into a new space. Packing up is always easier then unpacking and deciding where things should go. Either way, I have been supportive and helped her put her stuff out in the car, and told her to take whatever she wants.
The other night I was freaking out about the phone--well she was using the phone right in front of me today and I saw what the new swype code is. So I really don't know how to interpret that...perhaps I'm over interpreting? She showed me some pictures that her brother sent her of a shed he built...this brother is her youngest, and he had been in some trouble with drugs, but got help and is doing much better, so it was a blessing to see what good work he did.
My goal tonight was to make solid eye contact with her, which I did...I also tried to smile alot with out looking like Christian Bale from the Dark Knight.
Thank God for my 3yo D. She is such a blessing in this difficult time. Her untarnished joy and absolutely adorable antics make the two of us laugh and keeps us joined despite my wife's desire to leave.
I came across a very good book last weekend. The Tao of Sexology, by Stephen Chang. In the book, he talks about the nine levels of orgasm for women, and how most men in the West are ignorant of the true orgasm that women need. There is an orgasm at level four, which most think is the finish line. He goes on to say that most of the everyday squables and things that lead to permanent marital discord, and divorce stem from this basic problem. There's a ton more good info in there beyond that--so if you're lucky enough to still be at the point where your wife will have sex with you--perhaps you can give the techniques a try.
Anyway--I don't think my wife has anything going on with this guy anymore. But when I read the last part of DB, right after Michelle talks about what to look for in a Marraige counselor, I freaked out. She says that if things aren't getting better, perhaps it's just that the WAS has made up there mind, and there's someone waiting for the marraige to end.
I have to be honest that after reading that part, and also the part about giving up when you know in your heart that it's over--I said maybe I should just give up on this.
It's been since 9/16/11 that my wife said she didn't love me anymore, In a week that will be five months of her not wanting to be with me in anyway. In addition, I have to admit that it's been really tough to go without sex for that long as well (we did it once but it was a huge mistake on my part. She didn't want to, but gave in to my badgering and begging, and it really hurt her. She's stopped hating me, but she hasn't forgiven me yet...she said she wouldn't). Thank God there's a fighter in me though. Never quit, never, never. Always perservere.
There's just too much riding on this to throw in the towel. I've read posts where people have been separated for two years. I think I can go at least until September of this year, before I take off the wedding band and say--I have to move on. Even as I write that, I still think that's not enough time. But we just have to take it day by day.
She's over at the place now getting it set up so my d can spend the night there tomorrow. She's coming back here to spend the night, and help get my d ready for school in the AM.
She's going to let me come over tomorrow to see the place as well. I'll go over there too to check out the place. My D is so funny because she now calls it Mommy's house. That's my fault, because when my d woke up this morning and asked where her mother was, all I could think of to say was, "She's at her house." When my W heard her say Mommy's House tonight, she turned to me and said, "I though we were calling it the ______town where house is physically located______-house?"
I smiled and said, "Sorry, I forgot." Now my D won't do anyting but call it Mommy's house...despite how the two of us try to correct her...ohh well, Kids you just have to love them.
"Things are never bad; it's the way you think about them." -Epictetus
Positive Break-through on Sunday Night, I made her laugh. She was somewhat laughing at me. But I made her laugh and we were looking each other in the eye and laughing at antics other than my daughter's--so that's a little victory. I followed that up with telling her a story about my daughter, which again made her laugh...again, two thumbs up!
We are still in transition mode this week. Her and my D spent the night at her new place last night, and I went over for dinner and then went back around 9pm to watch the BCS game with her. I should say we're not big sports fans, it's just that my wife went to one of the schools in the game.
That was enjoyable. But it is tough to sit there when she's silent...not really saying anything and not openining up. I got home to our house around midnight and didn't fall asleep until 1:30 AM, and up again at 7:30--so a little tired today.
I feel like I'm trapped at my job. My coach said I need to start looking for a new one, which I have...but today it feels so hard to go into a soul-crushing outfit like the one I work for and come home and try to read through job postings (who writes those things anyway? Sometimes I'm reading job descriptions, and I say to myself, "Do I really want another W2 job?") to find a new job.
I come from a line of small business owners, and haven't started a business because my wife doesn't want me to. I know that saying goes against one of the principles in DB (blaming your unhappiness on someone your spouse)--but starting a business can really have a negative impact on family finances--The old me would have said (especially to my wife), "So does leaving your husband to rent an apartment in the middle of the winter."
I'm sort of tight with my money, and the thought of all the money my wife is going to spend on this new apartment and this separation, really upsets me. However, I think on the positive side, if we can make it through this separation and she decides she wants to come back to me, then it's money well spent.
I know today is cast in gray because I'm running on fumes and I expect tomorrow to be much better.
I still have questions whirling in my mind about things like...should I use a different technique...my coach just said to be nice, confident and take care of myself and get a life and sit back and watch....all of that I'm doing...I've also done a great job of passing tests...but I somewhat feel like my wife is not testing me enough...Does that sound wierd?
What I mean by not testing enough is, she just shows no emotion to me really at all, that's not entirely true...I guess what I mean is she's still guarding so much of herself from me...I feel like giving up right now.
Even though I've been staying pretty positive on most things, I have these crying spells that come on. Lately, they've been coming on when I think about an instance of unconditional love. I was reading something from DR on Sunday while my d was sitting next to me watching Dora...Michelle was saying how touched she was about all the people who have gotten good help from this forum and how that's been one of the biggest blessings in her life--well I couldn't help it...my eyes welled up and I snuck out of the room and cried in the room next door.
I would say since this whole thing started on 9/16/11 I have cried at least 20 times. I wonder if I'm doing such a great job at getting a life...I went to a movie with a friend last thursday night, but it messed up my sleep since I didn't get home until midnight...and I didn't do anything social this weekend because my wife was moving out, and I was stuck with my daughter. I should have went to church--but I didn't because I was afraid my friends there were going to ask where my W was...
So what am I supposed to tell my friends? I guess I have to tell them the truth. But I am going to hate to have to field questions later like, "How are things going?" "Are you doing alright?" As man, I don't really want to show a weakness like that.
here's what I'll say
"Sandie and I are currently separated. We are just working on some issues right now. Personally, it would mean the world to me if you would keep us in our prayers and pray that we can reconcile."
Wow, I kind of like that...I just came up with that one out of the blue. Short, concise and somewhat eloquent.
Again on fear--if I tell people, I have no control how the information is spread from there...Even though my wife and I aren't social butterflies, I'm worried someone will bump into her and say, "Elmo told me that you're separated. I'm so sorry...he said that you guys were working on things right now. I pray everything works out" Which would send her into Runaway spouse mode again, since she's still austensibly holding to the idea of divorcing me.
You know...somewhere I read, most worries and fears are very irrational. If you keep track of your fears for thirty days writing down every one that comes up...you'll see how ridiculous most of them are. The fears we have about things that we can do something about are even better--because all we have to do is start taking action to dispell those fears and they will then go away.
So listening to my own advice, I need to just be honest about it...not worry about what happens...be myself, get a life. Keep exercising and working out...and most importantly, get a new job.
One last thing...I haven't done such a great job of no-spying. I keep looking at my w's cell phone when she's not around. I'm looking for evidence that she may still be speaking with the om. I have concluded that she's not. At least not via text anyway...so I have to stop looking at her phone. It's sort of become a mini-addiction, because there is some excitement about her catching me. I know, you don't have to say it---"Get a Life!"
"Things are never bad; it's the way you think about them." -Epictetus
This is week 2 of the separation. I feel fairly lonely. I’ve been trying to get a life. I had buddies over on Saturday night to play poker. It was fun, but after they left the loneliness came back to visit. Luckily it was after midnight when they left and I fell asleep very quickly. I’ve been trying to meditate this week and have been trying to focus on loving kindness, and focusing positive energy towards my wife.
I have been thinking about writing her a letter entitled, “What I’ll do in my next marriage.” The purpose of that letter will be to identify all the things I did wrong, and what I won’t do the next time around. The letter will not be an attempt to reason or plead or beg. It will simply be an acknowledgment of the fact that we are done and what I’ve learned from this experience. I’m afraid that violates one of the DB rules, but I think she really values notes written to her. So I feel like instinctually it’s the right thing to do. What do you think?
The meeting with the attorney was really nothing to worry about. Like a typical lawyer he did all the talking, and I just sat across the table from her and smiled and looked tranquil. At one point when he stood up and left the room I was smiling at her and she she said “What.” With a little smile on her face. I said, “Nothing, and looked away.” I should have said, “Nothing, you look nice, that’s all.”
It was strange when the attorney started talking about child support. The calculation the state uses is totally antiquarian. I felt like I was in a Monty Python scene—comedy of the absurd. I think my wife was a little shocked at the intricacies of it too.
When we were walking out, there was another couple in the waiting room to see the attorney, they looked like they were there to finalize a divorce. They both looked sad and frightened. I smiled at them on the way out. I hope it showed them that this isn’t the end of the world.
I’m trying to focus on being more positive and upbeat, but I’m still crying once to twice a week. I guess that’s OK, if I’m releasing negative energy, but perhaps I need more laughter in my life right now to help keep my spirits up. Perhaps I can find some funny books to read, or motivational material to read.
This is a different game now that she’s moved out; the stakes are higher. I read some things online saying that a separation can be the best thing for a marriage, but I’m still afraid that she really no longer wants to be married to me. I guess I have to be ready for that.
I have noticed some positive things, although they seem so small I almost feel like we’ll never get to reconciliation—despite that I am not going to do anything to throw away all the hard work and progress I’ve made on this. Positives:
1. She offered me some food when I was last over at her house picking up our daughter. This was shortly after I commented on how nice her hair looked. I did take her up on the offer. 2. While sitting in the attorney’s waiting room last week, she started the conversation in a positive way. I was just sitting there with a smile on my face—just being positive. Of course we didn’t talk much, but it was good for her to start the conversation in a positive way.
I’m not ready to do the LRT, or go dark (that’s not easy to do when you have a child in the picture) yet. My plan is to wait until June of this year, that will mark seven months of me being the new me—the me who doesn’t let his fear, anger, and guilt rule his actions. If she’s still angling to divorce, at that point, I will take of my wedding band and tell her I’m going to start pursuing other women.
I read some of the happy endings on the other part of the forum, but:
If anyone has anyone has gone through the darkness of a separation and made it out the other side to reconcile and start back on the road to repair, I’d love to read your story. Thanks a bunch.
"Things are never bad; it's the way you think about them." -Epictetus
You continue to sound like you are doing well, Elmo. Keep your eyes forward and keep moving onward.
It is great that you have a DB coach as that is the best support you can have, next to Michelle. Stay with your coach's recommendations.
You mentioned a few things I'll take in order of precedence. Your W entered the swipe code in full view. You snooped and found no evidence of OM. Your W was in a good mood on a Friday a couple weeks back and not so much on the Sunday following.
First... STOP SNOOPING!
Second, her mood that Sunday could have been for any reason, but... her mood on that Friday could have been because she was excited to see the OM that weekend, and then something negative happened between them at which point, by Sunday they had "split up" and in order to prove that to you, even as an unconscious act, she did not hide her swipe code from you...
OR... I could be completely wrong... Meaning, her emotions have reasons that you may or may not guess correctly. And it happens as often as not, you will be wrong. Just because you don't see any trace of the OM doesn't mean he isn't still in the picture.
So in the end, stop snooping and stop trying to involve yourself in something you cannot control. Keep working on yourself, become a man that only a fool would leave, and hopefully that will save your M, when it will at least save you from a negative future.
As mentioned, listen to your coach. GAL is important and you may want to try some 180s. Either run these things by your coach or do them. You DO have this board and the DR book to look into to give you ideas of what you might try. Just do everything with good intention and all will be fine.
