Our story

[25yearsmlc]

Admittedly, contacting her on her sister's wedding day was a calculated risk. I realized it could come off as pursuing. It MAY have been a poor choice, though it didn't seem to have gone over too poorly.

see notes below


As to the other aspects busto and 25mlc wrote about, I'd like to sincerely thank you both. It was actually very eye-opening - things I didn't realize I was doing even as I wrote that post last night.

"Correcting" is not a word that had been used at all, but now that you've brought it up, and pointed out where I was doing it, I can tie it into a trait she had mentioned on one of our two joint visits to counseling and get a better idea of what she had actually meant.

Believe it or not, when she had mentioned being condescending or disrespectful in counseling, while I didn't dispute it at all (even I at the time would have realized how damaging that would be in terms of invalidating her feelings), I legitimately was unaware of ever doing it at the time and was unable to recall an example.

then work on this^^^ or you won't fix it. It's demeaning to correct, give input when all the woman expressed were HER Perceptions of reactions to something which is NOT a "correctable event"...
ask if you must-if it's not clear to you, ASK if they are inviting your feedback.
If they say no, do NOT take it personally. It means they just wanted to share something with you.
But correcting, or adding in your "important additional" info undermines as well and over time it really damages others feelings for you.

I debated in college & have argued in court countless cases. it does NOT help often in marriages b/c Ilke to know the verdict! "DId I win??""

But marriages are not those kinds of trials. We're lookng at conflict resolution, not win/lose. We want consensus building, not a victor.


I distinctly recall asking her, in front of the counselor, to please help me identify when I'm doing it. She was pretty incredulous that I was so totally aware of doing it, and only a couple times after pointed it out so I kind of struggled through (unsuccessfully obviously) trying to pinpoint it, and then change it, on my own.

It was only in reading Michele's books over the past month and reading other people's stories here that I could see similar characteristics, and begin to get a GENERAL idea of what I had been doing. But it's only now that you two have taken the time to point to specific things and show how and why they're perceived the way they are that I'm getting a much better understanding.

It's also MILDLY intimidating, as I'm beginning to think that just being more sensitive to the time, place and tone of my interactions with people (not just my wife) isn't going to be enough if any potential future reconciliation is going to work. I'm really beginning to think I'm going to have to completely reinvent how I talk and listen to people.

I agree totally with that statement^^.

the successful couples who reconcile here, do so after the LBSer changes a lot...not the WAS, the LBSer -for the longest time, and it's humbling as heck...

but the brave ones who make the journey inward, find that the inward journey is where the real growth is...

NEXT btw,
Your texts on the wedding day were way off base. You don't see that though.

That's b/c your sister in law had the graciousness/Grace of her own happiness that day, which she passed on to you.

Read NOTHING into her rushed message given in a heartfelt moment, on a day she ought to have spent only on HER pending marriage, and not the demise of yours... see anything a tad "off" or even a little selfish about that?

So Your w could hardly do less than the bride, since it was she who uninvited you.

IMO sending your w anything that day was pursuit & a manipulative "reminder" of YOU....YOU not being there and reminding her more than once that you wre not there, and making it about you --under the guise of wishing your w a happy day with repetitive unsubstantial comments that didn't ring true anyhow/ You wanted her to really enjoy her day and NOT NOTICE your absence...really? (She couldn't miss you b/c you kept texting her showing her how you were NOT GAL and making it clear you wanted to be there with her)


I think it bugged the heck out of you that you got delisted before papers were even filed.

BTW when my brother invited me and our family to his wedding during our crisis, I asked h if he'd be comfortable going. He was so out of it he felt sure he would be totaly fine and I think he was fine.

I also think he loves most of my family and realized what ELSE he'd lose if we split.

It never hurts to have a family let you keep marital problems between you two and NOT get "allies/enemies"...it never hurts b/c it makes it easier for you to

Keep the Road Home, Paved & Smooth....don't make it harder for your w to return than it already will be....

Isn't keeping the road home, paved and smooth a goal of yours?
IF SO, let it show.

I felt like your texts were aimed (mainly) at invading her thoughts that day...it's a control thing pure and simple.

The text to the sil MIGHT be seen as a gesture of kindness, but ON the wedding day itself???!! NAh... It would be distracting to me as a bride I'd be kind but it would later bother me and seem self centered of you even if all you said was "Bet you look beautiful".

You could have sent it the day before, after, etc.

I would want my day to be about MY soon to be successful marriage and my betrothed. My family would have asked if I wanted them to block your calls if it'd been me and mine. They were gracious to you instead and the awkwardness to avoid was for the bride as well as your w. Maybe even more so. We do not know.

Just food for thought...

The next time the topic comes up, the plan is to ask (and, most importantly, ONLY ask) how she came up with her proposed settlement. If I say anything more than "Ok, thanks for explaining it to me" it will be to relay it back to make sure I understood it - and then be done. I think it will be good practice for me to JUST listen, accept and validate as opposed to DISCUSSING.

I think you both need to seek out a l's opinion for general info. If she has, then she's got some wildly different info than you have.


as a L myself, I sought out counsel when my h and I sep b/c I could never be objective enough to represent myself, and it's not my area of expertise.

But the info I got was very favorable to me. My L was a specialist from a large firm, which I recommend, and I can read the law anyhow.

But she gave me caselaw b/c there was one argument I wanted to make that she did not believe would work. So I read what she has on it and she agreed to push for it IF h got wacky. But honestly in a community property state, its a matter of what is marital property and what's not, plus add in any kid factors.

So when my h mentioned something HE believed about the law, which I KNEW was way way off, I did not correct him. I didn't want to.

I wanted someone on "his team" to tell him so he could hear from his own counsel what he'd really face and to warn him off this road.

So
I suggested with genuine calm confidence that HE RETAIN COUNSEL at least to verify what he believed or heard. Besides, on the off chance my L was wrong, it'd be good to know sooner rather than later.

I certainly was not going to be the one to rain on his parade and say "See? I TOLD YOU SO!!

I WIN!!!"

Let a lawyer hired (even if just for a few hours), tell her the real deal. IF it's a community property state it's not complicated to explain and IF things were kept separate then that's that. It's either marital property to be split or it's separate property that remains that way.

THEN let the L give her the bad news.

NEWSFLASH THIS WEEK A WOMAN FOUND OUT SHE'S A BIGAMIST b/c her
lawyer from her first divorce, the "woman who wasn't really a L" SAVED her and her ex h money by filing the whole thing for 500$...

only she did NOT file and was not a lawyer and so when the woman walked down the aisle for her second wedding, she got the bad news that she was still married to her first h, AND had not "saved" a dime but had created heartache.

don't be pennywise and pound foolish.

In a short m in a community property state it OUGHT to be easy but I don't know if you are rich or famous or vulnerable to bad PR threats...

otherwise, just let the Ls do the dirty work and avoid the money/legal talks as much as possible.

You sound like you won't be able to do that b/c the traits you seem to send out to us are surprises to you so I don't know that you can change enough or fast enough.

But I wish you luck.


I have often heard outrageously unrealistic things uttered in anger and believe the best medicine is them getting the facts

but if you have not noticed by now then here's a newsflash

THE "FACTS OF LIFE" CANNOT COME FROM YOU even if you are "right".

B/c being right isn't important, being happy & staying married, if possible, IS.

Hope this stuff helps you.

[kolja]

It's very helpful, and certainly quite enlightening. I'm very glad you've taken the time to explain it. Definitely plenty to chew between now and the next time she has something to say!

[25yearsmlc]

among other things, I hope you got the point about how valuable it is for

her to find out from her own research and her "Own team"

that she has fewer things coming her way, than she expects. That life will be harsher than she expects...

It often motivates the spouse to take a second look at their decision --

BUT that "rule" does NOT apply

if the source of the information that upsets them, is the other spouse.

Then it's competitive and from my viewpoint
she'd feel cornered by you. And she'd likely bolt. I would.

As Kate Winslet said on The Titanic, "I'd rather be a poor man's lover, than a rich man's 'wife'"

(my translation of this, is that it's true - IF that rich man is a tyrant - then it's like being a well paid whore)

That's why she chose the pauper who treated her like a lover over the fiancee who wanted to control and own her.


You may want to save money and you may want to save the marriage

but information about the real world and how much harder it will be FOR HER if she leaves you is best paid for - so that it does not come from you. For one thing, you'll look controlling and "superior" if you are legally correct and "right", so you can't really win -

whereas by suggesting she retain counsel "even if just to reassure her of her rights" so she KNOWS her options,

then she MAY see you as gallant (& regardless, she won't ever be able to argue later on, that you "screwed her") AND then let her get the bad news about the single life, from her own L...


make sense?

[bustorama]

It's very helpful, and certainly quite enlightening. I'm very glad you've taken the time to explain it. Definitely plenty to chew between now and the next time she has something to say!

As you've suggested, some of the best things you can do to become aware of your habit of "solving" things per your world view (at the expense of hearing your W) are:

1) Simply listen to her and invite her to say more with nods, yes's, I see, oh I get that, totally, exactly, tell me more about XXXX or about what you mean XXXX ; whatever fits your personality and what she is telling you).

2) Echo/mirror/restate what she said to you (partly to be sure you are getting what she means, partly to communicate that you are actively listening to her).

3) Take an extra 1-2 seconds before responding to be sure you aren't responding in a way to "fix" or "solve" something or to oppose what she has said or argue for a "better" or "right" way. It IS possible to disagree with her without invalidating her.

WAS: I want you to give me $2000/month as your settlement. Are you going to do that or do I need to get my lawyer and take you to the cleaners for more?

LBS: W, I get that you want that much per month and that you want to move forward with things. I've looked at my finances and that settlement wouldn't work for me. I would rather have my lawyer handle all the money stuff directly with your lawyer, so you and I don't get drawn into bickering. It's important to me that we end things fairly and amicably.

[kolja]

It makes sense to me NOW that you've helped me get a better appreciation of it from her end.

I think in addition to the desire to spare us both the experience, I feel like there might be some of the impulse that most people have of not wanting to see someone they love make a choice that's just going to wind up hurting THEM. I feel like she IS in for a rude awakening, and while intellectually I knew it was probably something she'd have to learn on her own, in this instance I wasn't able to supress the imulse to try to spare her from it. But I can see now how it comes off as MORE condescension, more arguing, and more stonewalling something she currently sees as the only way for her to be happy again. It's also been helpful that in another thread I read, someone linked to a post from a long time ago by a walk-away-wife who explained things from THEIR prospective, and some of the reasons they're still SO angry at the left-behind-husband.

Today was one of the harder days I've had in a while - not because of any contact from her (I haven't had any so far, and I don't actually expect any... which is fine - it's been a long week and I look forward to a quiet and restful Friday night). It was hard because the obviously much needed introspection after yours and 25mlc's posts has not been all that pleasant - I really CAN be quite an unintentional jerk - and not just to her. Earlier today I was reminded of a quote I read a long time ago from a humorist (whose name escapes me) who was parodying Nietzche: "I looked into the abyss. The abyss looked back. Neither of us liked what we saw." It hasn't done wonders for my optomism for our long term future - of course I know there's a very real chance there may be no saving my marriage but it's nice to still think there's hope. It's just been hard to feel that hope last night and today - but of course, I know that's part of the experience too.

But, I've started to try and apply better habits in how I relate to everyone I come across in my daily life. It's doubly hard here, where most everyone's a type A personality and moreover we're all instructors and we're hard wired to make sure people get what we try to teach - but like 25mlc said from the perspective of her experience, that doesn't mean I have to take that home with me. I suppose the good news is that if I can suppress those impulses HERE, I ought to be able to do it ANYWHERE!

I'm especially grateful for your example of a better way to address her proposed settlement. It's very helpful in applying what you, 25mlc and my coach have been telling me the last couple days. I have a pretty solid idea of how I'm going to approach the next couple settlement-related conversations she initiates (and in the meantime, when it comes to her, I'm not speaking til spoken to...)

[bustorama]

Take it all as opportunity, koulja =)

One other thing -- be aware that based on the past, she may continue to interpret and hear things you say as being condescending, controlling or corrective -- even when you are being vigilant of those behaviors. Don't try to dissuade her of those beliefs either or defend yourself or "show her" that you weren't condescending or argue that you didn't intend to condescend to her.

Just accept that she felt condescended to. Cause it's how she feels and that matters (at least) as much as your intention.

[kolja]

That's definitely a good point and something I'll have to be on the lookout for...

[kolja]

A nice quiet night last night. When I was deployed in Italy this summer, my wife had set up netflix on our Blu-Ray player so I decided I'd get my $7.99 a month out of it and watched "True Grit" which I'd been meaning to see for a while. Fortunately for me she used her default password for the netflix account! (no, I don't use it to spy on her email or facebook - this is the first time I've used it since she set up the page at ourwedding.com for RSVPs and all that).

Today I got a lot done around the house - took a truckload to recycling and the dump which helped out the disaster area that is our garage (which has never been right since she moved in). Got a bit of cleaning done inside too. I know it sounds mundane but I like the sense of accomplishment right now, I feel less stressed in a straightened-up place (not anally-retentive clean, but not a complete mess). I think it's also good for me to prove to myself, even though it wasn't THAT long ago that I was single, that I can still take care of the place on my own (not that she did that much - for most of the past year if she's been home, she's either been in bed watching TV or on the couch watching TV). It also can't hurt if she comes home to pick up something of hers up to find a house in decent shape - that the wheels haven't come off my wagon and I'm getting by pretty decently on my own.

Rest of the weekend, I need to finish DR. I have an appointment with my counselor on Tuesday AM. That's the one who loaned me the book and I'd like to be able to return it to her!

[kolja]

The rest of the weekend was quiet. Last night I went out with a couple friends to watch the end of the late playoff game. There's a new joint in town called the Football Bat, which I think is an AWESOME name for a sports joint. Menu needs work though.

Tonight I'll finish up DR, only the last chapter "expect the impossible" to go, which will be good for me because I've had a little bit of a hard time staying optimistic lately.

I've got a few long-term ideas of things I'd like to do, once I get our new debt paid off. There's a small town on the very end of the southeastern panhandle of Alaska that I'm going to ride my motorcycle to - for no other reason than to say I did. I also saw a website for an arctic ski cruise to Svalbard, Norway, which sounds pretty awesome to me - though it will take longer to save up for. Something to look forward to though...

[2thepoint]

"I've got a few long-term ideas of things I'd like to do, once I get our new debt paid off. There's a small town on the very end of the southeastern panhandle of Alaska that I'm going to ride my motorcycle to - for no other reason than to say I did. I also saw a website for an arctic ski cruise to Svalbard, Norway, which sounds pretty awesome to me - though it will take longer to save up for. Something to look forward to though..."

Sounds like some great GAL bucket list items! Go for it!