WHG: Down the rabbit hole I guess

[workinghardguy]

As for the Amazon Prime thing, try to stop that sort of thing. Express shipping on Amazon is cheap. Cut the strings.

I need to listen to my own gut more... that was actually my first instinct. Just order the books and be done with it.

[Mach1]

As far as why... because I grew up trained that my primary value was to keep the woman in my life happy. So other values were irrelevant...

First off, I applaud you for recognizing this and seeing an IC.

This ^^^^^ is exactly what Harrier was talking about yesterday too.

We (as people) learn from actions maybe more than we do from words. Especially in our youth. Patterns of behavior that we emulate from our parents. Most of us have striven to be like our parents, because they are the example of our wants in life.

What you SHOW them, they will carry through a lifetime. The unfortunate part is, that they will see both sides through something like this. The stronger of an example you show , the more they will see, and I can tell you that children-more often than not-will gravitate toward the stronger (emotionally stable) parent.


To be a memory in a child's mind tomorrow, you must be in their life today


If anyone knows who penned that, I will gladly give credit, it is something that I always kept in the forefront of my thoughts during this.

In high school I was the "perfect kid"... 4.0 GPA, Honor Roll, lots of leadership positions, attended exactly ONE alcohol party (which is no small feat in Wisconsin btw), and not once touched drugs (even MJ). I did this because it made mom happy. That transferred into my adult life.

Yea, we wouldn't have been good friends....

: )

I know the convo with W has been a back and forth topic. For what it's worth it was meant as me standing up for myself. For firmly stating what I believe and feel. In the end things did not turn out how I wanted them, but I feel I had to say something. At the same time, W did agree to a few modifications that I think are better. If nothing else I don't want to go into a co-parenting R with her where she thinks I am not going to stand up for something I believe in.

Maybe I'm off here, and I think this is the point that became a debacle yesterday. This has come up ( or at least a variation of this) 3 ? 4? times in the past couple weeks ?

In NO WAY, am I against you standing up for yourself, your children, or what is right for you or them.

What I was commenting on , was that it seems to begin with...I pushed, and we had this discussion. The bringing it up, just to try for a different result (or to get an answer) is what I didn't like about it.

Truth is, the reality of her situation is gonna have to hit home for her to take a look in any direction other than her current tunnel vision.

But that is not up to you, to serve up on a platter for her either.


I think you are heading in a very good direction W.

As you do this work on you, your responses will become more natural, and you can trust your gut more. For now, you ned to step away from any conversations that you have chosen poor words in the past, and really think with a new mind.

Choose your words carefully. To do that, you must change your thinking along the way.

You seem to be doing that in accordance with what you have learned about yourself. Keep it up.

Thoughts become words
Words become actions
Actions become behavioral patterns

Think first, instead of reacting.

You will get through Sunday. You will hate it, but you will get through.

I think you are gonna deal with some things from her before, and after. There will be some anger towards you on both sides of the convo. Don't let her push that button on you during this.

If she tries to blame you in any way, steer the conversation back to the goal.

That will probably peeve her off though, because this is about her ( or so she thinks).

Hide that button from her, and be the rock your children need.

Be the you , that you imagine yourself being. Think about what you want your children to SEE and react the way you want them to react to things in their future.

Fake it till you make it through this part.....

Look on the bright side....at least it won't happen on the same day the Pack gets knocked out of the playoffs....

: )

[workinghardguy]

Thoughts become words
Words become actions
Actions become behavioral patterns

Think first, instead of reacting.

Where I worked in the past (and where W and I first met actually) was an in-residence boot camp for at-risk youth. The first passage was up on almost every wall in the place. And the second piece, think don't react, was the mantra I tried to drive into my cadets constantly. They were always in react mode... I just asked them to give me that 1 second before reacting to think. Seems I have to go find my old guidance again

I am hopeful for Sunday... at least in regards to the blame game. We have both reviewed drafts of what we are going to say. So far, if anything, I've made suggestions that tone down the amount of blame she is heaping on herself. This isn't meant to control her... simply that the C's said don't lay this on one parent.. share it equally. Most of the answers to the kids have had her shouldering the blame pretty heavily... and that's by her own pen.

And I am grateful to the Chiefs... I really didn't want the Packers unbeaten season to be the same year as this crap. So now that won't happen.

Though I have to disagree... I wish this was happening on the day the Pack gets knocked out... because then we wouldn't have to worry about this until next January

[workinghardguy]

@Oldtimer:

On the other hand, his w clearly understands how to control him--sadness, then annoyance, then anger to get him to rollover again. Not saying this is conscious on her part, but it is a pretty clear pattern.

I knew there was some point I thought was really interesting that I missed last night, and it just hit me... it's this quote.

It's not really unconscious on her part... or not fully. When we were talking the other day, when she was telling me about some of her self-help discoveries and dysfunctions, she said basically your quote above. We were talking... part of the discussions was what I've learned... that I avoid conflict. She then said that she knows... she knows, and knows that if she gets irritated, guilts me, or "flips her b!tch switch" she can get me to do what she wants most of the time. I don't know in the heat of the moment if it's conscious with her, but she knows full well how to use it to manipulate me and uses it.

Even this morning... I didn't get out of the house as soon as I wanted so I was there when she got home from work. I won't go into the morning but... right before I left she headed up to bed. She made sure to toss out the comment that she would only get five hours of sleep before having to pick up the kids.

The full intent of this was to guilt me... to get me to say I'll leave work early and go get the kids. That's what I've always done. Even this morning my brain started screaming at me and scheming on how I could make it work. But then I ignored it. First off... it's not five hours... it's six and a half by my math. Second, you had agreed to get the kids today... reneging now doesn't work. Third... get used to not having me around... I certainly won't be leaving work early to pick up the kids once we're divorced/separated.

I really wanted a good reply but didn't have one since my energy was going towards keeping my mouth shut. All I managed was, "yeah... that'll be a challenge".

[2thepoint]

I really wanted a good reply...

How about, sleep well my princess.

[figgeroni]

kids never ask the questions you think they will

and they won't ask all their questions when you tell them

don't expect them too

let them process things

let them ask you in pieces

it's too much to process all at once

and, I think your answer was great
no need to be snarky
you validated her...yup...that will be a challenge

[workinghardguy]

W and I have a "date" tonight at the local coffee shop (different one than our last convo) to discuss all the final D stuff... asset division, house, child custody, etc... Largely we've already ironed this all out but just need to finalize details.

Then Saturday is SS's birthday celebration. We're going bowling in the early afternoon as a family (her idea). Then my W is leaving to go hang with some friends and help them prep their new restaurant. While she's doing that I'm taking the kids to my mom's for birthday cake and so my mom can give SS his presents. Then on Sunday we break the news to the kids.

All day co-workers keep saying "TGIF... bring on the weekend!" All I can think is... you know, the weekend doesn't really need to come.

Don't think I've ever looked forward to a Monday quite as much as I want this next Monday to just get here already... by then we'll have jumped full into the brush and be running after the bunny with the pocketwatch.

[workinghardguy]

Had a good "meeting" with my W tonight... as good as discussing the dissolution of your marriage can be I guess. We talked about telling the kids and getting ourselves on the same page. I appreciated that she had considered my points from the other night and was now willing to keep the word "divorce" out of the conversation. Oddly enough though... I had come 180 to feel that it was ok to do this. That let's just be honest. Tell them what we know. So we have agreed on the following:

- We are getting a divorce because the two of us are not able to be married to anyone right now (that's the older kids' reason). That we still love each other, but not in a romantic/husband/wife sense. Instead it's as friends who care about one another.

- For S it is that mommy and daddy still love each other, but it's a friend love not a husband and wife love. But that we have mommy and daddy love for him, and nothing can ever change mommy and daddy love. Things can change husband and wife love.

- We are going to read a book we bought for S first and use that to jump into the discussion.

- We are going to tell them that we don't know when the divorce will happen, but it will probably be before summer.

- That they will move at some point, probably before school ends. That they will be able to be part of the process in seeing a new house if they wish.

- For SS/SD. I love you very much and want to remain in your lives, but I realize that mom and dad have to take priority. I will be with you guys when mom works. If mom has to work overnights you will have a sleepover at my house. At least once a month all of us (SS, SD, and S) will spend a day together (and then W said it was ok to tell them that at times all five of us would do stuff together). That I'll come to your sports games, still coach your teams, and so on.

- That SS can join my volunteer group if he still wants to (he asked again last night if he could join this weekend, but he's not eligible until 21 JAN).

- That our dog will live with me. If I come over to W's house for the kids I can bring him with. Kids can come see him whenever. W will dogsit when I travel.

- and we created a "safe word" that we will use in the case that one of us is answering a question and going down a road that the other is not comfortable with. Then we will stop the answer, tell the kids we will answer them but we need to make sure we are on the same page, and then get back to them a little later.

One ironic moment was when my W asked me if I would be able to keep it together when we're telling them about the divorce. It's ironic because I was very calm, collected, and matter-of-face. She was the one with tears running down her cheeks, her voice breaking, and doing a quiet, stifled sob as we talked.

Then we moved on to divorce stuff. I did a lot of listening. It went very well. We agree on the house. I was worried about the vehicles (mine is underwater and her's has major equity), but she agreed that I was being incredibly fair with everything and felt we should share the vehicle equity. Really the only minor contention came in discussing the assets of the house. I had to stop myself again and force myself to listen. What I could hear was that she loves cooking and loves our cookware. She probably can't afford that nice a set on her own. You know what? Take it. It's cookware for goodness sake. Take it. You will feed four people every day... take it and do good things with it.

Once I just let her have that the rest went really, really well. We agreed on child support/alimony and doing it outside our state's obnoxious trust fund system. Oddly enough she stated that she really does trust me to do what's best for my son and her kids.

So yeah... it went good... could've been much, much, much worse. And before anyone beats me up for my W and I saying we still love each other, it was she who suggested that we say this. I was using words like "care about" or "are concerned for". She said, "why don't we just tell them we love each other? We do. I still love you. If you still love me then let's just say that. It's a different kind of love, but I do still love you."

I don't know what that means... but it came unrequested from her. And it's better than I hate you I guess

The whole night before our "meeting" was so normal in our house. We had dinner as a family. W complimented me on the stew I'd made (it was a new recipe I was trying). Afterwards kids played games with me while W folded the laundry. Then SD and S started playing "house" and "fashion show" and they were hilarious. We were all laughing. S was a card tonight... and all night I kept seeing my W look at me to share the moment when he did something funny. It was all just so normal... and that made it even more strange feeling knowing what's coming...

[Ctflor]

WHG, I don't know, but will children at this age be able to understand that the love you both have is now a different kind of love? And is your W prepared for the onslaught of emotions when the children are begging mommy and daddy not to live apart? My d, over heard her father having a tantrum about wanting to leave .... and she is still worried about this. She's in counseling but she still deals with it. She has asked many questions... "Will you guys stay together? I don't want you to ever live in different houses". "Daddy, you can't leave mommy because we are a family and families don't break up".

Even though h has chosen to stay and we are in piecing, my d is suffering the fall out of this. In reading your posts about your w insisting that she tell the kids this soon, I honestly don't think she is prepared for the emotional fall out that could happen. When the children have to start dealing with such adult matters, suddenly it will all become about the kids, more than her own personal wishes. Their fears will start to dominate her selfish needs and she may have to rise to that occasion or like my h, dump it all off on you to handle when it becomes too much.

I honestly wish I could have shielded my daughter from the knowledge that her father was going to go... because even though he hasn't, she's still going to deal with just that information for a long time I'm afraid.

[workinghardguy]

but will children at this age be able to understand that the love you both have is now a different kind of love?

I have no idea CT... I can hope so. SS and SD can I think. As far as S? All the research says sort of. The research says that S's worldview is that mom and dad are together because of him. So if we aren't together anymore then what does that say about him? But, the message we've crafted is what the "experts" say. At the same time many of the experts say no matter what it will take 2-5 years for S to fully adjust and cope.

And is your W prepared for the onslaught of emotions when the children are begging mommy and daddy not to live apart?

I have no idea... I'm not her, but I really doubt it. She admitted last night that she never had this convo with SS and SD when she left her first husband. Granted the kids were 1 and 3 then. However I've also never brought this up to her... how the kids will react. I've seen that as trying to control her... guilt her into staying. She's smart... she knows this will hurt them. I believe she is underestimating the level of disruption and pain, and perhaps I'm overestimating it.

She is going to have to experience it first-hand. If it gives her a reason to second-guess her actions, ok. But I think that has to come from her own experience and not from me "laying it on her". If it comes from me it's just "me trying to hold on to our marriage". If it comes from the kids it's genuine. It's not my job to teach or deliver consequences... I have to let life do that. I also have to not shield or repair those consequences for her.