Our story

[Rick1963]

KO sorry I was driving while I typed earlier. I was trying to tell you that you should stop and look at why you are giving her the info. Is it to put fear in her? It is best to let life teach her the hard lessons instead of you. You don't want her to come back just because of finances, right? I was so angery when I was served that that is exactly what I did. It back fired. Now I just cooperate and say nothing about the ongoing D. I know it makes no sense, but I have no control. Hang in there

[kolja]

Not put fear in her, and you're right that I don't want her to decide to stick around out of pure logistics. But, given that this isn't going to be the soft landing/easy out that she thinks it is, I figured why subject ourselves to the process?

However, I should know well enough by now that logic doesn't apply. Guess I'm just grasping for something more constructive to say than "I'm not giving you $12,000 to walk away."

[kolja]

Rick-
I'm more and more glad you asked that question the more it makes me think. I think there's also a very long-lasting pattern of behavior on my part in how I relate, not just to my wife, but just about everyone, that I've been almost entirely unaware of until very recently.

In my family life growing up, debate - not the silly spectator sport you see in political campaigns these days or there self-important and generally very loud bloviating you see on cable news channels, but a calm, reasoned exchange of differing views was pretty common, especially between my mother and I (still is, actually). And it's a pattern I've carried through with co-workers and friends. Only recently have I begun to realize that in the context of my marriage, when my wife wasn't expecting or wanting it, replying to a view of hers with what I happen to think COULD HAVE come off as disrespectful, condescending or whatnot. SOMETIMES, I've only just now learned, people just want to say what they think without it being an invitation to tell them what YOU think. In fact, being more sensitive to more appropriate times and places to share my views on things with people who may not necessarily agree (not just my wife, but everyone I interact with on a regular basis) is one of my 180s.

So, in addition to the reasons I cited in my post above from a few hours ago, I think in my pointing out Washington Community Property Law, I tripped up a bit in a 180 and reverted to a common and long running pattern of behavior of mine.

The good news is I just got off the phone with Chuck, my DB coach, and have what I think is a pretty sweet plan for next time she brings up the divorce.

Now I'm about to go fire up the grill and see how this marinade I made (I've had chicken soaking in it of 90 minutes) turns out!!

[Rick1963]

Looking at patterns and changing those is a good thing. I noticed in myself always correcting or adding information when others opine. Pretty disrespectful. But at least we are looking at these patterns and admitting that they are or have been a problem. All we can do is to acknowledge them and change them. Nothing wrong with becoming a better person, right?

Ps if you like hot spicy food try marinating chicken in Jamaican jerk sauce. Please don't take this as disrespectful

[25yearsmlc]

No contact at all since Sunday. I've kept busy and have not let it bother me too much.

However - a question for anyone who has knowlege of depression. I've READ, though not on depth, that careless spending can be a symptom/side effect/manifestation of depression. There's been a lot of spending by my non working wife - the last 4-6 weeks I can understand with Christmas and her sisters wedding, but in the months before that it was fairly frivolous. I'm trying to decide if it warrants a confrontation or not.

If its something to do with possible depression then confrontation might not be smart. If its manipulative ("I'll show him, I'll spend so much he HAS to divorce me!") or malicious ("not going to give me the settlement I want? Fine I'll just spend it") then I might have to confront her about it

you will Not be able to distinguish between the two. And either way, you will come off as mega controlling under the guise of "corrective behavior" which is a pattern for you if I'm not mistaken, isn't it?

[bustorama]

Kolja, I see a pattern of antagonism and patronizing/control below still in your interactions with WAS. You NEED to dramatically change your approach to validating and accepting (not necessarily agreeing, just validating and accepting).

She asked if I was ready to settle, or if she needed a lawyer.

Respond as directly to her as you can and let her do what she chooses to. If you are not ready to settle per her terms when she asks, then simply say, No, your settlement terms don't work for me. Don't talk about stopping her, stalling her, etc. If she wants to go lawyer up, let her.

She said "Really??? Haven't I given you plenty of time??? I just want to get filed and move on..."

Better answer -- yeah, I can see you want to get filed and move on. Alot of time HAS passed. ACCEPT AND VALIDATE HER. Look up a guy named Homer McDonald -- stop fighting/stalling. Accept and validate her.

I asked her if she had even called a lawyer for advice on this, and said I was curious as to how we had such different expectations of how things would go.

This can easily come across as patronizing, controlling, demeaning, like you are talking down to her and not as your equal. Let her have her beliefs, even if you find them unreasonable.

Trying to logic her or prove where you are right, instead of validating her point of views may be part of why you are here.

She predictably blew up, and said "you [expletive] disgust me"

If it was predictable, then why go there???

I asked if her attorney knew we had only been married 17 months now and that both houses had been acquired by me before the marriage. She said "yep... it's a community state."

Let her have her beliefs, mistaken or not. "Proving" her wrong or trying to torpedo her out of la-la land and into reality is plan FAIL.

I sent her a link to the avvo.com page

More patronizing, demeaning, talking down.

reminded her that the houses and most of the investment assets are separate property.

And you think telling her she will get nothing out of you will help her fall in love with you again? Shock and awe her back to reality and be a dutiful wife?

She said "Whatever, I'm done with you."

That went well!

I think gunny clearly hit the nail on the head last week or so when he said it sounds like she's frustrated.

I would be frustrated too if I was in her shoes! Wall of opposition -- controlling, demeaning and patronizing. Accept and validate her wish to divorce you and move on.

[bustorama]

Not put fear in her, and you're right that I don't want her to decide to stick around out of pure logistics. But, given that this isn't going to be the soft landing/easy out that she thinks it is, I figured why subject ourselves to the process?

Precisely because she (says she) wants to. I get that you don't want to (and why you don't want to), but she feels differently. Let her do as she chooses with whatever is her portion of y'all's money.

[bustorama]

I did send my wife a text message around 10:30 or 11 this morning wishing her well, telling her I knew how much time and effort she'd put into it and that her sister was lucky.

Bzzzzt. This is total pursuit behavior.

Furthermore, she told you she didn't want you at the wedding, yet you text her anyway. If she wanted to hear from you, you would BE at the wedding. You are essentially invalidating her wishes by texting her. And, if she reconsidered while she was at the wedding, let her miss you and let HER be the one to text you during or after the wedding to fill you in on it.

Found a half marathon in April, the normal 12K back in my home town (which attracts like 50,000 people), and another half marathon in June.

Good luck at Bloomsday and with your other runs!

[bustorama]

There's been a lot of spending by my non working wife - the last 4-6 weeks I can understand with Christmas and her sisters wedding, but in the months before that it was fairly frivolous. I'm trying to decide if it warrants a confrontation or not.

If her spending is irritating you, kill 2 birds with stone. Push for the lawyers to establish the separation of finances that she wants. Then, you will have shored off and protected your portion of the assets. She can do as she pleases with her portion. I understand it hurts to see it being spent since it is community, but I agree with 25mlc, that your pattern of "correction/control" has the big potential to play into this. Let her spend her portion of assets as she chooses. Reality can intervene for you, and you will protect your own.

By pushing for the separation of finances, you also would be accepting/validating her wish to divorce you.




If its something to do with possible depression then confrontation might not be smart. If its manipulative ("I'll show him, I'll spend so much he HAS to divorce me!") or malicious ("not going to give me the settlement I want? Fine I'll just spend it") then I might have to confront her about it [/quote]

you will Not be able to distinguish between the two. And either way, you will come off as mega controlling under the guise of "corrective behavior" which is a pattern for you if I'm not mistaken, isn't it?

[/quote]

[kolja]

Admittedly, contacting her on her sister's wedding day was a calculated risk. I realized it could come off as pursuing. It MAY have been a poor choice, though it didn't seem to have gone over too poorly.

As to the other aspects busto and 25mlc wrote about, I'd like to sincerely thank you both. It was actually very eye-opening - things I didn't realize I was doing even as I wrote that post last night.

"Correcting" is not a word that had been used at all, but now that you've brought it up, and pointed out where I was doing it, I can tie it into a trait she had mentioned on one of our two joint visits to counseling and get a better idea of what she had actually meant.

Believe it or not, when she had mentioned being condescending or disrespectful in counseling, while I didn't dispute it at all (even I at the time would have realized how damaging that would be in terms of invalidating her feelings), I legitimately was unaware of ever doing it at the time and was unable to recall an example. I distinctly recall asking her, in front of the counselor, to please help me identify when I'm doing it. She was pretty incredulous that I was so totally aware of doing it, and only a couple times after pointed it out so I kind of struggled through (unsuccessfully obviously) trying to pinpoint it, and then change it, on my own.

It was only in reading Michele's books over the past month and reading other people's stories here that I could see similar characteristics, and begin to get a GENERAL idea of what I had been doing. But it's only now that you two have taken the time to point to specific things and show how and why they're perceived the way they are that I'm getting a much better understanding.

It's also MILDLY intimidating, as I'm beginning to think that just being more sensitive to the time, place and tone of my interactions with people (not just my wife) isn't going to be enough if any potential future reconciliation is going to work. I'm really beginning to think I'm going to have to completely reinvent how I talk and listen to people.

The next time the topic comes up, the plan is to ask (and, most importantly, ONLY ask) how she came up with her proposed settlement. If I say anything more than "Ok, thanks for explaining it to me" it will be to relay it back to make sure I understood it - and then be done. I think it will be good practice for me to JUST listen, accept and validate as opposed to DISCUSSING.