WHG: Down the rabbit hole I guess

[cat04]

I don't see that either. How so? W announced they would tell the kids on Sunday, pretty much blindsiding WHG. To try to follow up that announcement with a rational discussion in a public place does not seem in the least bit controlling.

Personally, I don't see this public discussion as the part that Mach was calling controlling.

In my view, it was the discussion where he told her to go sooner, because it would be better for them both.

It was a passive aggressive comment made by someone who was upset that he wasn't being heard or getting his way.

Additionally, it is the continuous rehashing of the upcoming conversation that is controlling.

W,

I don't want to beat you up here. While these are your actions, they could have been anyone's and they have brought about much disagreement among posters.

While we are all entitled to our own opinions, I don't want to focus on that too much...

I would like you to understand something. I said I was controlling. That is not a lie. I became controlling in my M. It was my reaction to my controlling H.

My H, for his own reasons, was similar to you in many ways. He was passive aggressive, critical, did things and commented on things in ways that made me as insecure as he was. More so in the end.

I felt I did nothing right. I was a bad mother, a bad wife, a bad house keeper. I was too attached to our S or not attached enough. I worked too little, I worked too much. I don't believe that his intention was to ever make me feel that way, but almost twenty years of hearing it wears on a person.

Eventually, and I don't talk about this part of it much, I found a way to survive how I was feeling. I couldn't be a drinker (alcoholism had much impact on my life). I couldn't just walk away from my M at that point, that would have been too much like my mother. Instead, I found ways to control what I could, to hopefully appease him, I attempted to be perfect. I became very controlling in subtle ways. Over time, there was nothing that anyone could do in my home (shopping, laundry, dishes, vacumming, etc...) that was good enough that I didn't criticize. I tried to meet all of everyones needs before they said what they were and then wasn't happy if someone needed something I didn't anticipate.

I figured if you can't beat them, then join them. And I had a timeline in my head. A timeline for how long this would go on until I could live my life free of all of it. I was planning on being a WAW once my S was grown. I had a countdown that began with the thought only five more years of this... That decision was made about a month before my H dropped the bomb.

That was my wake up call. My realization that I didn't want a D. That I did love the man but that things needed to change.

That all being said, I can understand why your W is where she is. I also understand why you are where you are.

I can't guarantee that anything will work out or won't down the road.

I can guarantee that you will find yourself in another R similar to this one if you continue to be controlling.

If you continue to be closed. If you choose not to do the work Mach is talking about.

I also agree with Harrier, you are making this event so traumatic for your children, trying to anticipate the horrors they are going to suffer. So they will.

They will learn what you show them. If they see you as strong and picking yourself up in the face of adversity, they will learn that.

Again, those choices are yours.

Also remember, that what happens today, can change tomorrow.

If you decide to become the better option, down the road you may have a reconciled R with your W. Or your future partner will be a very lucky woman.

It really is all up to you.

[oldtimer]

Cat,

There has been no constant rehashing. My understanding is that wgh's REPLY to his w's suggestion that she move out earlier was a good idea was at absingle public conversation he initiated after she blindsided him with a unilateral change in plans contrary to what he agreed to. Perhaps if you read more of the thread it will better put things in context.

As for setting a good example and being positive and strong for his kids, wgh is definitely on the right track. I'm just not seeing the dramatic this-will-ruin-the-kids-forever standard stuff coming from him at all, quite the contrary. What am I missing?

[Jack_Three_Beans]

With a little love, and some tenderness
We'll walk upon the water
We'll rise above the mess
With a little peace, and some harmony
We'll take the world together
We'll take 'em by the hand

-Hootie and the Blowfish

We are all in this together; alone.

Not all advice meshes, but we all want the same thing.

Right?

[2thepoint]

WOW! WHG finally bears his soul and puts it all out there for the world to see and all the heavy hitters come over to his thread to impart their wisdom.

Soak it all in bud. There's tons of really good advice and perspective for you to use. Make the most of it!!

[Ctflor]

I'm getting some good advice just reading this thread 2thepoint.

I think the reason i relate to WHG is that ... although I'm not a fixer, I've always been ultra available to my H. I've always handled the daily stuff, taken care of most things he didn't want to take time for, and I've taken care of things quietly for h, even when he didn't notice.

When I started to put myself first, that is when h took notice of the changes in me. I remember during a heated discussion I told him, "I'm realizing that I never do anything for me much, and that I have put myself on the back burner all too often, but now this is my time and I'm going to start focusing on me".

he really did not know what to do with that... but it did make him start to really see me again as more than just his wife, but the autonomous woman he met, who was once exciting and out on her own... and then I began to re-create the mystery that once existed. This was one of my 180's.

I stopped doing most things for h, only thing I didn't stop doing was making his lunch most days, but for the most part I stopped a lot of other things he had always counted on.

[Mach1]

What am I missing?

OT....

I feel the same way, although Cat summed up a couple of the points I was seeing...(thank you Cat)

I'm fairly certain now that we are comparing Apples to Oranges in OUR discussions, and I'm also certain that this may not be the best place for that to happen.

I'm not even sure we can agree to disagree because our points have become so varied.



This is about WHG. And I do apologize for hi-jacking the thread with our miscommunications.

[cat04]

Gabby,

Sometimes it is amazing how similar situations can be while still being extremely different...

For me too, things translated into the bedroom, wouldn't be surprised if a lot of women found that to be true...

OT,

I have actually read all of W's threads. It is something that I make a conscious effort to do BEFORE I post to anyone. Always have.

We don't all always see things the same way. That is the beautiful thing about being individuals...

BH,

Thanks :p

[workinghardguy]

First off thank you everyone for the posts and the concern. I am going to try and respond to much of it, but there's a lot so if I miss some things I apologize

First a little update... Saw W briefly this morning as S and I were waiting to go to his medical appointment this morning. Since the last public encounter I've kept things very "clinical". Child care stuff, children updates, that sort of thing. A few times W has brought up unrelated topics related to work or her life. I listen briefly and then excuse myself to do something else.

Took S to the doctor for an asthma evaluation. Was happy that it turned out negative and no real issues. Went to work after that and was in a pretty good mood all day. Stopped and picked up a gift for SS's birthday that my W mentioned she could not find. I was in the city and knew where it may be, so I got it. Came home and W was up and with the kids. Told her I got SS's present; she was genuinely thankful and surprised I think. Again, we didn't talk much.

Played some games with the kids before dinner. After dinner my S had his first wrestling practice. A few surprise moments. First, SS asked if he could go with. He could have stayed home and played XBox but he wanted to come with S and I. We sat together and watched the little ones try to do exercises and chuckled. Then I realized we had forgotten S's water bottle. I texted W and asked if she could bring it when she dropped of SD at the practice site on her way to work. A while later I saw her come in on the opposite side of the gym. I asked SS to go over and get the water from her. I specifically did this so she didn't feel like I was making her come over to me. She stood across the gym with SS and SD and watched S for a while. Then she came over and sat with me on the bench. Not next to me... SS was between us, but she sat with us and watched S practice. Then she left for work.

And now we're home. I'll do some posting next in an attempt to respond to some of the ideas and threads.

[workinghardguy]

Starting with Mach...

What DOES validate you ?
Those are the questions that I want you to ask yourself W....
Why are you incapable of validating and defining your own life ?

Well, that's why I'm in IC right now One of the fundamental things we are working on is what are my values, what does define me, and how do I become capable of living those values and defining myself within them. It's a work in progress. As far as why... because I grew up trained that my primary value was to keep the woman in my life happy. So other values were irrelevant... In high school I was the "perfect kid"... 4.0 GPA, Honor Roll, lots of leadership positions, attended exactly ONE alcohol party (which is no small feat in Wisconsin btw), and not once touched drugs (even MJ). I did this because it made mom happy. That transferred into my adult life.

And you wonder WHY she feels the need to be on her own now ?

No I actually don't. From the start I've said that I believe we have to be apart for some period of time if we are to ever recon. I believe she NEEDS to be away from me and I from her. If we didn't have kids in the picture I'd have signed off on splitting up a long time ago. She needs to learn to live on her own and as an independent person. And... so do I.

So how does this change ? How are you different moving forward ?Criticism is the number one sign of being controlling. It MAY appear to be harmless, but it isn't. When you criticize, you are trying to change the behavior of someone else.

I have come to realize this. How does it change? By not doing it. By stopping myself and thinking before I speak. From thinking about what I am going to say and deciding whether it is something loving or something critical. Even if it's critical couched in humor (I'm REALLY good at that btw).

An example... SS has never been an avid reader. It drives W and I crazy. Lack of reading means he is a poor speller and has a smaller vocab than he should. But about two months ago he suddenly found reading. Last night he finished his fourth book in four weeks, and we're talking thick books (all three Hunger Games and I Am Number Four). Old me would've said something like this, "Hey... it's a miracle, you figured out how to read!" or "Wow... I didn't know you knew how get through a whole book". Instead, last night when he told me he finished the fourth book we talked about what the book was about. Then I asked him if he was proud of himself for finishing a fourth book in four weeks. He didn't even realize it had been four in four. I told him he should be proud and that I'm very proud of him and he should keep at it. But that is reflective of new me.

Or tonight after practice I talked with my S. He's not very good at the exercises for wrestling yet. Old me would've told him he's not very good or made a joke about how he looked doing them. Tonight I asked him if, when he's up early in the morning with me, he'd like to work on exercises together after I'm doing running. After all I certainly could use the exercise too

This is more of the same Controlling, Passive Aggressive, Insecure behavior.

I know the convo with W has been a back and forth topic. For what it's worth it was meant as me standing up for myself. For firmly stating what I believe and feel. In the end things did not turn out how I wanted them, but I feel I had to say something. At the same time, W did agree to a few modifications that I think are better. If nothing else I don't want to go into a co-parenting R with her where she thinks I am not going to stand up for something I believe in.

@Harrier (and others)... in regards to telling the kids and the trauma. Yes, I know... I have spent the day reflecting hard on this after reading the posts this morning. I've come to some realizations. First, I am projecting my pain onto their lives. I don't know how they will react but they will certainly take their lead from my emotions (especially my S). I know I have to be strong and take it in stride. This is simply another path, not the edge of a cliff. Second, things could be far worse and I need to stop feeling sorry for myself. On a continuum of bad to good you would have my W committing suicide (she discussed that when this sitch started) on the farthest bad side. Then we would never have any R and the kids would not have her. Next, she could've just walked away and left me to unwind everything (stepkids, her XH, house, S, etc...). She could've gone dark and vicious with nasty lawyers and taking me for everything plus custody. On the good side would be us working on ourselves within the confines of our M. If that's not going to happen then I think the next stop along the continuum is where we are at. Amicable, communicating, friendly, and focused on the kids and their lives. Being sad, depressed, and a basketcase is not good for the kids and if it's not good for them then what benefit does W have for keeping things on the "good" side of the continuum? So yes, I need to and will "man up" and do this with a positive attitude.

I figured if you can't beat them, then join them. And I had a timeline in my head. A timeline for how long this would go on until I could live my life free of all of it. I was planning on being a WAW once my S was grown. I had a countdown that began with the thought only five more years of this...

This is my W... She even said as much during one of our talks. At the time, and probably still to some degree, I felt taken advantage of. That in some manner she used me to get her nursing degree and with that in hand she is sweeping me out. She said that at the time of nursing school she thought she'd be a WAW after the kids left the house. Then recently she couldn't do that anymore and moved up the timetable.

If WHG wanted to control that, he has a huge number of trump cards to play that he hasn't even put on the table -- W's current substance abuse issues, her various infidelities, etc. A person trying to control the other would have had that ammo locked and loaded as needed to get his way.

Thanks OT... and I agree with you. I have never brought any of those items up to her. Not because I'm afraid to, but because they don't really matter. They are symptoms of a deeper problem or really problems. They are symptoms of the stress in our current R and how she deals with that stress. They are symptoms of her own depression and how she deals with that. But ultimately that is what they are... throwing that back at her, just to get her to do what I want is truly pointless. Not to mention if I were to throw them at her and she stayed with me simply out of fear that I would use her substance abuse issues against her... well what kind of R is that?

Three months ago I did some research into my 401K. She is entitled to half of it as Wisconsin is a community property state. I also learned that at the time of the divorce she can choose to roll it, invest it, cash it out, or take a lump sum and invest the rest. For many weeks I held this information. I did this to control her. I feared that if I told her she had access to this much liquid cash she'd run for the exit as fast as she could because she'd have what she needs to get set up in a new place. Getting set up is one of her biggest fears.

Finally about three weeks ago I simply told her. It took me that long to come to the realization that if she's staying with me simply because she can't afford to get set up in her new place... well, that's not worth a damn thing. That's no way for either of us to live. She wants to be free. This is a tool that can get her there. I owe it to her to be transparent and honest, especially since it is her money once we divorce.

And oddly enough... it hasn't changed her timeline at all.

Thank you to everyone. The last few days have been very hard. I have posted things on here that I have never told anyone except my IC. I appreciate the responses and the insights. I cannot say that I am looking forward to this weekend... who would be except a sadist? But it will come. The kids will survive. I will survive. I will not be as bad as I have it crafted in my head. It will not be as non-chalant and pollyanna as my W has crafted in her head. But Monday will be better, and Tuesday will be better still, and next week will be even better.

I think it also helped that last night I sat down and made out a custody/visitation calendar based on what W and I have agreed on so far. With church days, volunteering in school days, and days my W works there are four days a month where I don't see my S. Frankly, there are four days a month now where I don't see him. I know it's not the same... taking him to church and dropping him off at mom's is not the same as taking him to church and then coming home and playing in the park together. But it's better than nothing, right? This is where I have to look... at the blessings that are in amongst the stink. I know there are dads on here that would kill to see their kids all but four days a month. So I won't wallow... I need to hold my head high and show them the path.

[Rick1963]

WHG lots of good info from these folks. Take your time and go over them. Hang in there