WHG: Down the rabbit hole I guess

[Mach1]

Yes, it is one of the things I continue to work on. And here is a "but" I suppose... however, one of the frustrations is that of course the unique qualities of each sitch are impossible to know. So while we are all desperate for help and guidance, that can only go so far. It's not possible to know the ins and outs of every sitch or every relationship.

You are correct, there is no way to know what goes on in every situation. All I can do is go by what you put out there for people here to see. You could be the most real person in the world, or you could be a troll doing a psychiatric study from some classroom. I will not assume the latter, and by faith, I think you are a very real person , with very real problems.

All I can do is read the emotion that you post with. Your words, your pain, your substance. And I can assure you of one thing. There is NOTHING that you can post that will either surprise me or shock me. I have been reading/posting here for over 4 years, and have read some of the worst situations out there. I write that, not to make you think more of me, than anyone else, rather to let you know that I understand the pain you have inside of you.

When I read anger from you, it is because I have read that from dozens of angry people here...

When I read condescension from you, it is because I see your superiority in your words.

When I ask about you always being right ?

It is because I read that in your words. That constant burning inside of you to always be heard, to always have the right answer. And I have been there as well.

I used to be that person, that guy who made himself feel better because he was the one who was right. The guy that could fix anything in any situation. Right up until my bomb. Then I had some hard lessons in front of me.

For months, I asked how she could do this TO me.....Then I started to look inside of myself to find out why ?

It was EASY to thump my chest and say what a good person I was....but was I ? Really????

It was easy when one only has one side of the story to go by. It is easy to be a better person AFTER the crap has blown up in one's face. But who were you BEFORE this ????

And if one ignores that part of it...then the reality is...it is easy to fall back into old patterns of behavior.

It took a lot of hard questions to realize my truth and my role in the breakdown of my marriage. I Was controlling, I was superior , I was always right.

Did that make me a bad person ? No...

What it made me was a pretty good guy, who had some seriously lacking relationship and communication skills.

In the process of defining myself, growing emotionally, and learning from my mistakes. I learned that I wasn't a "better" emotional partner throughout most of my marriage. I wasn't a "better" option, as long as I CHOSE to remain stuck in who I once was.

Then the long process of rebuilding myself started. I can tell you that UNTIL I did MY work, I wasn't the better option for any person.

And if you think standing, or limbo is hard....you will be in shock when your next relationship starts. ( and yes, that next relationship CAN be with your spouse)



Posting here is something I choose to do W. To pass along what I have learned from my mistakes. In hopes that one thing, learned from one person, helps them in some small way. I cannot speak for anyone else, although I am sure that most that stay, or come back, feel the same way.

I know that I would have never found my way, if I wasn't pushed, and challenged by people who could see past my wordsmith skills. (and I see you have that gift as well).

I see a lot of who I used to be in your recent actions and words. The HARD questions are the ones worth answering. The ones that give you that little sting on the back of your neck.....those are the ones that you should take a look at. Because the old adage about the truth hurting.....it is true.

And I see you fighting those questions internally. When those "defensive" flags start flying. Do yourself a favor, and ask WHY something pissed you off from a post.


THAT.....is when the good stuff happens...

[oldtimer]

Whg,

Sounds like you did well. W cooking that meal was pursuit. She was uncomfortable with the distance she felt, which is a good thing. She needs more space. Things I wish you had said:

"Get real. I am not excited about waiting until April fir you to move out either i am not trying to change that. This is sooo not about altering your plans. It is about you going through with your plans in the best way possible for the kids."

"What do you get out of telling the kids so early and is it fair to use them to get it?"

"Whoaaa. Don't put those words in my mouth. They don't reflect my thoughts. If you have those feelings, you have to own them."

"Ya know, you sharing my bed does not work for me either.. What is the best way to change that quickly?"

"Of course I will be there Sunday, the kids will need us both. But between now and then please consider what you gain from telling them so early and what it will cost them. It changes nothing in terms of physical separation or divorce. So please just take a step back and try to look at it as something separate from our issues. This really is just about the kids."

"I am NOT trying to interfere with the separation or divorce. The M we could have without you feeling you've done what you need to do is not one I would want either. "

Regarding my XH, I would complain about him to my C. My C would say what would happen if blah blah. I'd say "he'd get mad or upset or..." She'd reply, "so what?"

So what if W got mad. Just maybe you got her to think. How was rolling over and letting her smash the kids without trying to intervene better?

Having a spine is more attractive than the alternative. As for W's self-involved tantrum, well, that's not very attractive. She was no doubt frustrated she couldnt act out even more because you weren't at home. But it does show where she is.

[oldtimer]

Maybe this: "W, let me try again. I want to respect your needs. But I also want to protect the kids. What are the benefits to you of telling the kids now and might there be other ways to get those benefits?"

[cat04]

WHG,

The question, you answered it literally, and that is great. I was speaking in a broader sense of whether you are willing to look within and do the necessary work or just pay lip service to it.

As far as specifics to the controlling behaviors...

I will touch on the letter to the teachers was controlling, the wanting to smooth over the talk with the kids by taking the whole family to the pool is controlling...

Control doesn't have to be overt, stopping someone's behaviors. It can occur much more subtly.

I can't do your work for you. Google controlling behaviors and see if there is anything you can identify with.

I agree that there are differing opinions here. Differing approaches. Some things work for some, other things work for others.

Personally, I won't give you the standard "do this, do that" kind of advice. I don't want you simply doing something because it was suggested. I will try to make you think with a DB frame of mind.

What Oldtimer and others suggested about having the conversation in public, wasn't a bad idea. It wasn't necessarily about miminizing her reaction, you can't control what she choose to say or do, but it did keep you from escalating the situation. You controlled yourself when in private, you may not have done that.

As far as posters pushing back, responding to other posters, you can push me all you want, that is not an issue for me. I have been in shoes that aren't that different from yours. I have been asked the tough questions. I tried to avoid them for a long time. Finally, I had to look at the stings. I had to answer the questions.

If something stings, if something makes you feel defensive, it really is something that you should look at.

Anyway...

[workinghardguy]

It's been a pretty tough day... lot of introspection and thought today. Only a very brief interaction with W. I approached her after I got home and after she got up. I asked her to order three children's books on divorce. She has an Amazon Prime account that came with her Kindle, and I had already been to our local bookstores looking for these books. I want them here by the weekend, and she agreed. She had planned to buy some as well.

The second topic was the sharing of the bedroom. Following 2TP's suggestion I told her I will move to the basement. I had priced beds this morning and would move if that will relieve the tension. Only issue... first, on nights she works overnights I want to stay upstairs. I don't want our three little kids staying alone upstairs while I'm two stories downstairs. This came about because S5 woke up last night at 3:30 a.m. with this recurring leg pain he has. He came in to my room limping and crying. I can't imagine having him go down two sets of stairs this way. She said she appreciated the offer but she will move. I wanted to press her on what her plan was then... because I'm tired of the stress of her anger from sharing a room but not making any actions to actually move to a different room. She said she didn't know. She would figure it out next week. Ok. I offered. I don't know if I should just move, period, and say it's done. But I'm not comfortable without the commitment about the overnights. Just frustrated. At this point I am leaving it in her court.

And that was it really. I volunteered in son's school this afternoon. That was fun and he loves it so much. But it was hard... just very emotional today. Keep thinking what is coming at the kids and they just don't know it. It breaks my heart over and over.

@oldtimer. I said something similar actually to what you posted. At one point we were discussing that amount of time between telling them and moving. She said, "fine, then I'll move out earlier." My response was, "well that would fix that... move when you want, February, March not much difference and it would allow both of us to get on with our lives." She got madder after that. Oh well.

A previous poster asked who I was before my sitch... and I do know who that is. I have been able to be honest with myself and find those faults.

I am a guy with insecurities... I am a fixer... I like to find women in "trouble" and parent them into a better state. Fundamentally I don't know if I'm worth spending time with or being married to. Hence I find a "fixer upper" who will have a lower standard of acceptance. I remember when my W and I started dating that I would think "she's a single mom with two little kids... she's probably willing to 'settle' [for me]." Part of it goes to looks and part of it goes to how I've valued myself. I've long required a partner to validate who I am and what I'm worth. I've long felt that my W, at least looks-wise, is a few levels above me and that I've always been married out of my element (though my W would adamantly disagree with that).

I was the prototype Mr. Nice Guy. I never made my w mad. I took care of everything. I took care of stuff before she even knew it needed to be taken care of. I cooked, cleaned, shopped, did the budgeting, IT, outdoor stuff, child care... all of it. She consumed and consumed. My W was rarely affectionate or intimate. We had sex maybe once a week or every other week. That was not enough for me. The lack of other intimacy was not enough for me. The lack of recognition was not enough either. I sacrificed for her and rarely got a thank you.

This made me an angry person, but I never told or confronted my wife. I never told her, never let her know. Instead I sublimated it... I thought I dug it deep and controlled it. I didn't. It came out...

It came out through my dismissive attitude of her concerns. Of me trashing and judging her friends and her family. It came out as being terribly critical of her, even when I thought I was Mr. Supportive. Most tragically perhaps it came out as passive agressive anger at our stepson.

I don't believe I ever consciously was mean or vicious to SS. But deep down I knew SS is mom's baby, and attacking him was the best way to extract my revenge. And I did... over and over... often cloaked in the disguise of "hard but good parenting".

I also was the guy who got comfortable. Ignore the problems and let life go. I put on about 60 pounds from when we first met.... getting up to 258 at one point. About three years ago, if I'm honest with myself, I knew my marriage was in trouble. I found myself being attracted to online dating sites and affair sites. I would peruse the ads and get a high. I never contacted anyone, just lurked. Have never had a PA or an EA, then again those opportunities never presented themselves either (though perhaps that's because I wasn't actively seeking them). At one point I even found myself looking at escort ads. Again, no consumption but the thrill of it. Instead of engaging my W and figuring out what the problems were I ignored them. I essentially kept one foot out of our M ready for an off-ramp if I needed one. In July I had a colleagues at a conference proposition me for a one-night stand. I got to the point of walking her to her room, going into her hotel room, and then leaving because I couldn't. That scared me enough to go to my W and say things aren't good. We have problems and need to talk about them. She agreed. We talked. Six weeks later she dropped the bomb.

But I grew up in a house where my mom stayed married to my dad who was a pretty bad husband. Years later we learned that he was a bad husband because of a serious and misdiagnosed medical condition he had for almost a decade. But my mom hung in there... no matter how bad it got, she stayed. So I learned to keep the woman happy and to stay by your spouse no matter what. But my mom and dad would have these terrible, terrible fights so I avoid conflict with my partner at all costs. Hence, despite my feelings I never told my W how dissatisfied I was. I never told her that I was unhappy. But to keep her from seeing this I did not engage her. Hence when she was depressed and slipping further and further into her depression I wasn't there for it. I left her alone to fight her depression and self-doubt. And as I have learned that is one of the cardinal sins...

As I've looked at the posts that most get me defensive they are when they intimate or say that I'm just not trying hard enough. Those comments hit me right in the guilt button. I feel so god damn guilty about all of this. I look at the faces of my kids and can picture the pain they will have in just a few days and know full well it's my fault. Not all my fault, no, but much of it is. And I am trying... and I'm failing, repeatedly. Time is pretty much out and I haven't saved the day. I haven't been able to protect my kids from this truckload of pain heading there way... and that means I've failed. Dads protect their kids dammit. They stand in front of them and keep the world from kicking them. Except this time I'm the one kicking them.

So that's the guy who I was before. Who am I now? A work in progress. I am trying to be less judgmental... not easier after a life of judging, but working. I find myself talking with my W about mutual friends and it's so easy to slide back into judgment of them... but who the hell am I to judge?

I have lost 45 pounds from that high point. My target is 175. I lift weights and exercise almost every day.

I stand up to my W... more. I don't do it enough or as strongly as I should. But I have started picking battles. I have told her it's not ok to trash her XH in front of the kids, and she stopped. I have told her the kids feel disappointed and hurt when she is gone for the weekend and doesn't call or talk to them... that she doesn't have to talk to me at all, but that they need and want to talk to her. She has called every weekend she's gone to talk and check on them. There have been a few others. This is still something I am bad at. My heart jumps in my throat every time and I absolutely hate the feeling, but I'm getting used to it.

I have stopped taking out my frustrations and anger at my W on my kids, especially SS. This has been the most profound transformation so far. Deatching has helped... the anger isn't there to process because I am trying to not tie myself to her actions. SS has told me he likes how we get along now. W has said she notices my new efforts at R with my SS. My R with all the kids is much stronger than five months ago, and this is the most beneficial outcome of all this mess quite frankly. But it's not perfect.. I can still feel days where I'm not detached, where W does something that gets me upset, I sublimate, and suddenly I'm sliding back towards old me. Relaxation exercises and meditation have also helped me in this area.

I am heartbroken to think that this newfound R with my stepkids may get blown up by the divorce. I am heartbroken that my unwillingness to face the music when I first heard it means I may never be my W's partner again.

I don't doubt that I will find someone someday if I want. I still love my W. I still want a M with her. I don't know if that will ever happen. We will forever have an R of some type because we have kids. And maybe there will be an 11th hour reprieve, but I'm largely of the belief that we will have to go through the rabbit hole if we are ever to come out the other side.

And god bless if you if you actually got through that entire post

[2thepoint]

Really great post, WHG. Lots of introspection and self examination. Here's my take for what its worth:

"She said she appreciated the offer but she will move. I wanted to press her on what her plan was then... because I'm tired of the stress of her anger from sharing a room but not making any actions to actually move to a different room. She said she didn't know. She would figure it out next week. Ok. I offered. I don't know if I should just move, period, and say it's done. But I'm not comfortable without the commitment about the overnights."

Whether you realize it or not, the fact that you offered to move to another room is HUGE in your W's eyes. She won't tell you this but she has taken notice. Let her figure it out and if she doesn't move within a week, move yourself and be done with it. On nights where she won't be home, perhaps you sleep in the upstairs bedroom and she can sleep in the basement. Problem solved and you have created BIG SPACE for your W.

" At one point we were discussing that amount of time between telling them and moving. She said, "fine, then I'll move out earlier." My response was, "well that would fix that... move when you want, February, March not much difference and it would allow both of us to get on with our lives." She got madder after that."

Another HUGE step! She got mad because you basically gave her what she wanted but much earlier than she wants it. And you are showing her that you are detaching and her anger is really masking her fear, IMO.

"I took care of everything. I took care of stuff before she even knew it needed to be taken care of. I cooked, cleaned, shopped, did the budgeting, IT, outdoor stuff, child care... all of it. She consumed and consumed."

But did you ever tell your W what you want or need from the R? My guess is no and so you let resentment build.

"My W was rarely affectionate or intimate. We had sex maybe once a week or every other week. That was not enough for me. The lack of other intimacy was not enough for me. The lack of recognition was not enough either. I sacrificed for her and rarely got a thank you."

Another area where if you told your W what you want/need perhaps things would be different? Isn't it amazing how we don't realize how easy, answers to many of our problems don't even occur to us until we are in crisis?

"This made me an angry person, but I never told or confronted my wife. I never told her, never let her know. Instead I sublimated it... I thought I dug it deep and controlled it. I didn't. It came out..."

It always comes out though, doesn't it?!

"In July I had a colleagues at a conference proposition me for a one-night stand. I got to the point of walking her to her room, going into her hotel room, and then leaving because I couldn't. That scared me enough to go to my W and say things aren't good. We have problems and need to talk about them. She agreed. We talked. Six weeks later she dropped the bomb."

Regardless of your insecurities, don't you see that you have integrity, probably one of the most valuable of all human characteristics? And... that you realized that there were problems in your M and brought it to the attention of your W. How many of LBS would love to have had that realization before the bomb? Unfortunately we, you, all of us didn't have the DB tools in our hands when we needed them. Now we play catch up and hope for the best.

"I feel so god damn guilty about all of this. I look at the faces of my kids and can picture the pain they will have in just a few days and know full well it's my fault. Not all my fault, no, but much of it is. And I am trying... and I'm failing, repeatedly. Time is pretty much out and I haven't saved the day. I haven't been able to protect my kids from this truckload of pain heading there way... and that means I've failed. Dads protect their kids dammit. They stand in front of them and keep the world from kicking them. Except this time I'm the one kicking them."

Look, maybe you are guilty, maybe you are not. The reality now is that you must be strong for the kids. They will survive this and you can help ease their pain by being there for them. All of them. And as you continue to be there for them no matter what happens, you will grow and they will grow and their love and respect for you will grow as well. And maybe your W....

"I have stopped taking out my frustrations and anger at my W on my kids, especially SS. This has been the most profound transformation so far...

SS has told me he likes how we get along now. W has said she notices my new efforts at R with my SS. My R with all the kids is much stronger than five months ago, and this is the most beneficial outcome of all this mess quite frankly."

So there is a blessing here wrapped in some tough azz circumstances. Embrace this and know that you have been and are making a difference in the life of a young boy/man and that he will carry with him his entire life.

"I am heartbroken to think that this newfound R with my stepkids may get blown up by the divorce."

Who says the R with your kids has to suffer? This is something you can control if you continue to put forth the effort. Since telling my kids and moving out of the house back in mid-November, I feel like my R with my kids has gotten significantly stronger. Why can't your R with your kids grow as well?

"I still love my W. I still want a M with her. I don't know if that will ever happen. We will forever have an R of some type because we have kids. And maybe there will be an 11th hour reprieve, but I'm largely of the belief that we will have to go through the rabbit hole if we are ever to come out the other side."

You may very well be right, WHG. But you know what, if you make it through the rabbit hole and don't get lost somewhere in the endless tunnels, you may just come out of this stronger, wiser, more capable of developing and maintaining a lasting R with the next love in your life. And... that love may just be your current W.

Think as if!

[Ctflor]

I just wanted to throw this out there...

Last summer when H was constantly telling me that he wanted to be free and have his space, it occurred to me that maybe I should just leave the bedroom. I was really afraid to do this, because I thought it might widen the gap further between us. A part of me felt that if I just stayed in our bed, it would kind of hold us together somehow.

I decided to go ahead one evening and make a palette on the sofa and leave our bedroom. When he came in, he asked what I was doing and I just told him I felt it would be good if we had some space. At first he was a little surprised. I don't think he was expecting this. He turned and went on back to our bedroom... but after a couple weeks of this, he came to me and said that he didn't mind sharing the bed with me, and that I could come in there where it was comfortable and that he'd take the sofa. So i took him up on the offer. He slept a couple nights on the sofa and came back to our bed on his own.

Later on, when things began settling down he shared with me that my leaving our bed did upset him and made him start thinking about things, and his life without me.

Just throwing this out there as something to think on. Not saying that is what would happen in your situation... but maybe your relocation to new sleeping quarters would give her something to ponder. Boldly take that option for yourself, rather than give her the choices?

[Ctflor]

Another thought, WHG.

My h has shared a lot with me on why he had his EA, and much of it was coming from him not getting what he needed from me. Things that he used to get early on in our M, that had dwindled over time. He just never came to me and shared it with me, and let all of that build inside of him. I wish he HAD come to me with it, rather than have his EA.

And, another thought I had was..... does your W feel like she can really come to you with the deep stuff? Aside from sharing the daily grind, and the stories of friends..... does she really feel like she can confide in you? Is she afraid to talk to you... afraid of judgement?

[labug]

WHG, I think I started keeping up with your sitch because your posts reminded me of me. I over think, over analyze, over explain, over write everything. I must explain away every possible problem.

I used to think I was being thorough, prepared and smart; I was really being controlling. If a conversation veered into a place I hadn't explored I might not have an answer and then I didn't feel so thorough, prepared and smart. People might think I'm stupid or not perfect. Yes, for me it all came back to shame about myself.

My writing and conversation left no room for another person's thoughts or feelings because I had it all figured out and I couldn't risk losing control.

With the help of my T I figured that out and my life is getting better. When I started listening to people with my ears and brain and heart instead of preparing my next perfectly crafted statement, things started getting better. When I learned to ask for clarification or more info, things started getting better. When I learned to say some simple phrases like, "I don't understand", "I don't have an answer right now but let me think about it" and the ever popular "No" things really got better. When I learned to STOP and THINK and not be afraid of the little silences in conversations things REALLY started to improve.

I have a friend who proofreads my emails to red pencil any snarkiness, condescension, holier than thou crap and too much information. I have an email up on here tight now that I'm looking for help with. I know I need help.

This thread has been very instructive to me, a good tune-up, thanks to all who have contributed.

[labug]

add to above, when I learned to see my emotions for what they were and take that out of the equation, my communication improved immensely.