Your post is beautiful. It is true love to give her that gift.
"Instead of looking at her actions in light of how they affect me I am looking at her in terms of how I can help her"
I have moments when I have similar feelings for my H. I mean looking at these WAS they look so possessed it is hard not to feel bad for them sometimes.
I think your new perspective will have a imperceptible yet enormous effect.
To say you will give W as much time as she needs is a true 180 for anyone and so unconditionally loving.
I wish I could say I will give H as much time as he needs right now I have till April.
Brklyn - I thought that your H threatened but did not file? What's the issue with April?
And I don't think I'm as strong as some of the people on this blog, particularly the ones where they have a S or D date impending. It's a lot easier for me to stay focused/hopeful because there is no issue like that in the works right now.
I wish you the best. Let's hope your H gets it together and sees what a great life he can have with you. Isn't it odd that at the moment a M can split up, it's also maybe the moment where it could take a turn to being better than ever because each has learned so much of importance?
I can only wish that I have an ounce of your strength and resolve to stay the course and "give as much time as needed". Your words were the definition of 'unconditional love'.
Your insights on your response to 2TP are inspiring. You are making leaps and bounds in your efforts to support your W through her struggles. Every WAS should be so lucky as to have someone who is willing to 'stand in the flames' for them.
M-31, H-31 T-9, M-7 S-6, s-20mth sep 8/1/11 ILYNILWY 11/29/11 Creating separation papers. Discover H has feelings for BFF, she does too 1/11/12 H moves out 1.20.12
Gentlemen, this is an important thread b/c it has genuine insights and
the willingness to CHANGE for the marriage, and the LBSer
AND a good give and take with discussion
But mostly I value the willingness to change to become a better man, regardless of outcome ...knowing there NEVER were any "guarantees" that we'd be rewarded with what we believe we deserve, or more
and this is GOOD STUFF...
I do wish to insert a comment from another thread somewhere, from a WAW. In that post, a WAW explains to the another poster, a H/LBSer that EVEN IF HIS CHANGES ARE REAL....
(and how long it truly takes for a WAW to believe in them and why)
she may still feel another way.
It's a WAW's POINT OF VIEW and if you, Rick, can really see it and empathize w/your wife some more, then your apparent growth will be real. And you will have become a better man...regardless
Originally Posted By: rickb89
2TP __________ But, are you certain that your W is interested in you waiting? I mean, isn't she the one who wants out of the marriage? How do you know she is willing to put any effort into repairing the M? What signals are you getting to suggest that is the case?
Rick ______ I appreciate you asking the tough questions. I think she does want me to wait based on her reactions to anything that sends the message that I am not going to. This is difficult for me because I do not know the outcome of this, but I've made this choice for her and us. That's risky for HER and I commend her. She's Not trying to have her cake and eat it too, or playing games with you.
She has said many times that I should not wait for her because she feels this isn't fair. There are things she's struggling with and one of them is self worth because of her traumatic background and she has trouble with anyone doing anything for her. It's hard to explain but while she will say one thing, all her actions point towards her wanting me to stay.
anyone recall a phrase "believe NONE of what they say & half of what they DO"?
So long as we don't talk about it though, or at least if I don't initiate any R talk. It's the way this works for her, to work through her life issues and marriage issues on her timetable, and not feel forced by me. She's asked for time over and over again, and has tried to figure out how to work on all of this while the daily train keeps moving.
So what I do is let her be in her world right now, work through her issues, redefine herself, keep the pressure off, handle the kids and their reaction to this, etc. Hey, I went through every bomb related, anti-DB reaction known to mankind when this began but miraculously we are still together (same house, separate rooms).
I don't think she wants out of the marriage even if she isn't saying that or comitting to anything, but her actions seem to be indicating that all she wants is time here. I say that because its come up a number of times and I've said and meant it that if she wants out, go ahead and say so.
I hope you won't be saying that anymore...it's NOT necessary (we're in America and she does not think she needs your permission. The comment can literally do you no good. )
We will split everything 50/50 and she won't get any games from me. Hell, I've been at the point a few times re: OM that I was sure there was an A going on and told her that I'm out. It was at these points that we would have some positve breakthroughs in underdstanding where each of us is at. BTW she completely denies any A. To her its just a much needed friendship. I don't know for sure but I'll give her the benefit of the doubt and if I lose then hey, I took the higher road.
I don't however think my cousin (OM) was very smart to sneak behind my back like this. On his end I only see betrayal.
really? Hmmm....not to quibble b/c I'm sure you have a point. After all, your cousin is blood to you. But for "another point of view"===
I have a bff from high school who married young. Right after their child was born she began noticing how uncommunicative and critical her h was. I knew him some.
I don't know if her h was really prideful, stubborn and selfish AND OR he just did not love my friend much....? He wasn't the man she deserved.
She made it clear she was not happy, her needs were not met by a long shot, and he did nothing to change....their m was in trouble. They had ond child.
As their marriage troubles piled up, and she filed for a divorce or sep (I think a sep was required first back then)
one of the husband's best friends made a move on the wife. He swept her off her feet and said he she'd be the love of his life & he'd treat her right if she'd say yes. The h was outraged but as the best friend said to the h "She is a great catch & You were a dumbass who blew it time and again. I'm not going to miss out on the chance of a lifetime to be with a great woman and I'd rather go for it with her, than keep this friendship." He was open and honest about it all I guess you could say.
So then Her h made a feeble angry attempt at demanding she come back, and playing the victim only later on saying he was "Sorry for his part"....and how he HATED his "bf for betraying him----
fact is my friend and her 2nd husband *(the former bf of the h) have been happily m now for 28 years. I'd say they have one of the 3 or 4 best marriages I've witnessed in my life.
I know your cousin is your cousin, and both he and your w deny an affair. But I'm just saying, isn't it odd that there can be such a different viewpoint of a situation?
He should have known better to get involved in a situation like this and be covert about it. His day of reckoning will come. He's hurt me and my sons. All he had to do was make contact and explain that he was having contact with my wife and if it was friendship of course I would not have had a problem with it.
Look, I really don't know the future here. I love her and am willing to do my part with no guaranty. I do see her slowly, and I mean slowly thawing, and spending more time with me than we did before the bomb. But, I have to handle this so well and don't blow it. If I start any R talk, or pressure her I will blow this. I let her talk about it when she wants. I keep it all light and fun. I help her out with whatever she needs. As long as she can control her pace through this, and my silence is present I think she will at least have a world in which she can go though her therapy, sort out her issues, find out who she is, where she fits in in the world, and figure out how she will live in our M.
and where is the role of YOUR growth in all this? Sorry if I missed it-it's a long post. What will YOU be doing to improve as her partner while she grows as a woman?
2TP __________ I don't mean to be a downer here, but I could just as easily say the same thing about waiting as long as it takes for my W to heal and then work on the M. The problem is, she is the WAW and I don't see any signs at present to suggest she wants me to wait and work it out. It doesn't mean I'm not willing or won't wait. I will, but for how long? And, as you and I both know, events have a way of provoking reactions that then take us down unintended paths.
indeed...one must know more than what NOT to do in those moments...prepare and have a positive role model of what TO DO, or some healthy behavioral algorithm if you can, BEFORE it comes up and is needed... Rick, 2, and whoever else THIS helps, this note is from a WAW (thatgirl) to a H who was the LBSer. The LBS h felt he had changed enough that his w ought to return to him now, and not be with OM or confused or whatever...the h lbser conceded a lot of mistreatment beforehand and appeared (to me anyhow) to have really changed.
This reply from another WAW got him and many others, re-thinking what they "deserved"....a lot...it's in the "Classics" posted by some moderators...
FROM A WAW TO A LBS HUSBAND WHO HAS CHANGED AND WONDERS WHY HIS WAW HAS NOT COME HOME YET AND HOW SHE CAN BE AT ALL INTERESTED IN OM…. "When I read your interactions with your wife, I could so easily identify with your wife's feelings/words/sentiments. I have been in her position in my M.
I was the ignored, the devalued, the one who was treated as less than. I even got chills when she talked about the FB issues, because I've been there and done that, bought the t-shirt Of course, my H went a step further and cheated, then left, adding an extra crunchy layer of goodness to my sitch.
One of the things that I have tried my hardest not to do, is not to engage with another man. Not just because of my marriage vows, but because I knew that when I truly engaged in any type of R with another man, it would make it that much harder to ever reconcile with my H. Because being treated differently (better) than the way he treated me would lessen him so much in my eyes.
So, I can see where your W is coming from.
When you've been mistreated to the point where you actually let go of your R enough to let another person into your heart or bed or whatever, it takes a boatload of work to get back on a page where you're recommitted to being with your S - and those uncertainties that she's expressed to you, I don't know if you truly, truly fathom how deep they run. Six months of getting back on a page where you treat her the way that any wife should be treated does not even scratch the surface of the years, the intrinsic devaluing that occurs when you're systematically mistreated for such a stretch of time.
And I promise you that while you have recommitted and worked for 6 months, your W has simply been trying to get to a point where she can even buy into the changes, where she can even think that you might have changed and not scoff at the thought.
Because when you build up hope again and again and again in your H and he crushes it again and again and again, you develop a thick skin, a protective doubt, a conditioned response to even the slightest, grainiest seed of hope. You are taught that when you hope, you will be disappointed. When you try, you will fail. You are taught that you will never be what he wants and it is hard to shake what you have come to believe is reality. And for the changes that you've made to have come only when she walked away and OM became competition, I can definitely see how she can doubly doubt that you truly want to be in a M with her, and not just to win.
Even you today say that you are not sure that you don't just want to win.
Step 1 - figure that sh!t out ASAP. Because if you actually do manage to convince her that you really do want her and really have recommitted to her and you actually just want to win, you'll put her through hell.
Rick ______ Hey, I didn't see any signs for ever and in fact was being told we were done and there's nothing that can be done about it. I think this is where we need total faith because all we can do is the whole DB program with no guaranty. And, it would be easier to wait if we knew for sure that our W's would come back but we don't know and that's killer.
obviously....But newsflash: there never were any guarantees! However, the myth that there were, MIGHT have lead you to taking her for granted...so maybe it's better that we KNOW there are never guarantees...
this is called faith, and
doing what is right B/C IT'S RIGHT and Not because you'll get your reward here on earth...
SEE ABOVE NOTE FROM WAW...IN HER EYES (which is all that matters now)
she is not the one who threw it in the crapper...by a long shot. Have you read this whole thread start to finish?
I know people get divorced all the time but maybe that's when the concept of DB'ing was not introduced. Maybe they get caught up in the the bomb shrapnel and never have a time-out period without causing each other irreversible damage. I don't know for sure. The success stories I do see on this blog seem to indicate that this really takes time, what feels like a geological time scale. But if it took years to build up to the bomb then it can't be solved overnight.
the success stories here ALL seem to begin with changes made BY THE LBSers....
2TP _______ So, I guess my questions is, how are you going to manage through this?
Rick ____________ I will manage by putting my heart and soul, my life on the line for her. Don't think I'm not scared to death here. Yeah I have a life and can still be a positive addition to the human race without her, but like you I guess I really could not imagine how much it would sukk if this doesn't work out.
Well you NEED to imagine it. Yes...that's what I said.
Only when I imagined life without my h, but with me being happy
was I able to make the changes I wanted in my life and in me - ANYHOW....so flesh out the images of what you'd be doing without her. If she passed away and enough time had passed
what would your life look like assuming it's a healthy happy life? You're not shriveling up in the fetal position, right?
Are you going back to school or taking a class or joining a new church or taking Spanish or travelling or what? And with whom? (not OWs, but who else?)
and create as much of THAT life now, as possible. It's called GAL and it makes you happier and healthier and more likely to reconcile...and yet, if you don't, you're a lot farther down the road of recovery than you would be otherwise.
It's a win win....hope you get this. Make sense?
How can your W not see what a great person you are, what an improved H you are, over time? And for the OM d-bag, how can this guy be as good as you? He's willingly attempting a R with a married woman with kids. I'm hoping your W will see this in time.
SIGH..."how can she not"?? & "Why is she doing this"????? These questions, per my DB coach
all elicit defensive responses in the recipient. That is the goal too...unfortunatly, it's to manipulate and guilt. I had to learn NOT to begin any sentence with those words...
Besides, the answer is, "She can very easily Not" do so, or trust the "changes" or care anymore...see above comments for how that can happen.
the more you understand HER point of view
the better your chances for real lasting change and
the better the chances of her letting you back into her heart.
It's a rare woman who leaves a man who always treated her well....very rare....
You guys sounds like men who mean well, have good hearts and heads on your shoulders.
Be strong and brave and know that we are all rooting for you.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Great post Rick. Though our situations are slightly different (my wife is out of the house - but almost ALL her stuff is still here, and she's SAID she wants a divorce, will mention it briefly once every 7-10 days but hasnt filed or anything), I feel like my wife's past traumas and my own actions/inactions exacerbating them play a huge role in what's going on. So I've bookmarked the thread so when it gets frustrating, or feeling TOO uphill, I can come back for inspiration.
Me: 36 Her: 35 Together 7/09 Married 8/7/10 Separate rooms since at least April 11 "I've decided I want a divorce" 12/5/11 She moves out of state/files 2/7/12 Dissolution final 5/12
Rick said: I think she does want me to wait based on her reactions to anything that sends the message that I am not going to. This is difficult for me because I do not know the outcome of this, but I've made this choice for her and us.
25 said: That's risky for HER and I commend her. She's Not trying to have her cake and eat it too, or playing games with you.
Rick said: I agree. We both have done a lot of soul searching throughout this sitch. Lately these discussions between us have just popped up innocently and we get to talking about where we both were.... either lost, confused, unhappy/fearful, or needed to evolve/improve. Without this sitch/bomb ever happening we never would have had discussions like this. It would have been defensiveness, lack of comunication, frustration, talking in circles, etc. There's a new element of trust between us as we discuss the hard issues and even if we aren't sure what the other is saying at first, we have the newfound ability to have the patience to talk it through. _______________________________________________________________ Rick said: I don't think she wants out of the marriage even if she isn't saying that or comitting to anything, but her actions seem to be indicating that all she wants is time here. I say that because its come up a number of times and I've said and meant it that if she wants out, go ahead and say so.
25 said: I hope you won't be saying that anymore...it's NOT necessary (we're in America and she does not think she needs your permission. The comment can literally do you no good. )
Rick said: The mutual threats to leave or suggestions that we should split are the past, early bomb days. Right, she does not need my permission to leave the M. In those days it was so antagonistic, so horrifyingly scary to get our minds around it that it seemed that a split was very real. It's actually hard to go back to those moments with clarity but yes, in ther end, it's her choice to stay or not. I was so freaked out at the time. I had always thought of myself as tough, self-reliant, evolved and had some real background to believe that but when the bomb dropped I made so many mistakes. More importantly I made so many relationship mistakes before the bomb. What a friggin wake-up call but I have ny W to thank for that. ________________________________________________________ 25 said: I know your cousin is your cousin, and both he and your w deny an affair. But I'm just saying, isn't it odd that there can be such a different viewpoint of a situation?
Rick said: I'm not sure I'm following your question. The reasons I was sure there was an affair (as opposed to just a friendship) was how things fell into my awareness (situations I've psoted before), and added up they really pointed to an A. My W just said the other day that if she had shared what was going on with me all along it probably would not have been an issue or look like an A. I agreed that that would have been the case but said that given where she was at the time and given where I was at the time I can see how she went the route she did. She agreed.
As for your BFF story, it's not exactly the same. I still feel it was scummy of him not to be up front about it. He's live in another state for years so its not like he saw this M where the H was mistreating the W (like your friend's story). Our M issues were private. Most people who saw us, saw a strong M. What I'm saying is the OM in this case did not have this body of evidence of a mistreated woman. If he just took her word and decided to be sneaky, to me that's reprehensible. Given that he knew there was M trouble I just don't accept that he never made any contact whatsoever. And if its just friendship then why the sneakiness? Even if it was my W's idea to be clandestine I think he should have reached out. Look, I can accept that I may have not been the man my wife wanted and walked away, and that someone else may be a better match for her. Maybe I'm expecting too much. I just can't imagine myself doing this to a family member if the roles were reversed. And when they first were contacting I really thought that it was nice. I find out about all of the stuff the made it look like an A after the fact. ____________________________________________________________ Rick said: Look, I really don't know the future here. I love her and am willing to do my part with no guaranty. I do see her slowly, and I mean slowly thawing, and spending more time with me than we did before the bomb. But, I have to handle this so well and don't blow it. If I start any R talk, or pressure her I will blow this. I let her talk about it when she wants. I keep it all light and fun. I help her out with whatever she needs. As long as she can control her pace through this, and my silence is present I think she will at least have a world in which she can go though her therapy, sort out her issues, find out who she is, where she fits in in the world, and figure out how she will live in our M.
25 said: and where is the role of YOUR growth in all this? Sorry if I missed it-it's a long post. What will YOU be doing to improve as her partner while she grows as a woman?
I will be, for the rest of my life, having the B..lls to be brutally honest with myself, be open to growth, listen better and empathise, think in terms of giving instead of thinking in terms of how everything affects me, not being afraid that others can be different and make different choices, that my logic is not the end all be all, to let go of fear based decisions and actions, to give her all the support she needs ________________________________________________________ 25 said: But newsflash: there never were any guarantees! However, the myth that there were, MIGHT have lead you to taking her for granted...so maybe it's better that we KNOW there are never guarantees...
this is called faith, and
doing what is right B/C IT'S RIGHT and Not because you'll get your reward here on earth...
SEE ABOVE NOTE FROM WAW...IN HER EYES (which is all that matters now)
she is not the one who threw it in the crapper...by a long shot. Have you read this whole thread start to finish?
Rick said: looking back I did believe in the guaranty and yes, it definitely affected how I acted towards her. Left untreated I would never have seen the way I was or improved beyond it. Yeah, I should have seen (and now do) that every day we have with our loved ones is a gift that should be cherished and treated so.
No I haven't read this whole thread and I will. Just the part you posted is an eye opener. I rerally need to read more from the perspective of WAS's. ______________________________________________________________ Rick said: I really could not imagine how much it would sukk if this doesn't work out.
25 said: Well you NEED to imagine it. Yes...that's what I said.
Only when I imagined life without my h, but with me being happy
was I able to make the changes I wanted in my life and in me - ANYHOW....so flesh out the images of what you'd be doing without her. If she passed away and enough time had passed
what would your life look like assuming it's a healthy happy life? You're not shriveling up in the fetal position, right?
Are you going back to school or taking a class or joining a new church or taking Spanish or travelling or what? And with whom? (not OWs, but who else?)
and create as much of THAT life now, as possible. It's called GAL and it makes you happier and healthier and more likely to reconcile...and yet, if you don't, you're a lot farther down the road of recovery than you would be otherwise.
It's a win win....hope you get this. Make sense?
Rick said: Yes, I am well along the path to being fulfilled with my life in the absence of my W. Once I got over the initial horror of the bomb, I really reflected on what I am doing with my allotted time on earth...is it fulfilling...is it my highest and best reason for being here? I am beginning to feel real momentum in my life choices. If anything the thought of not being with my W has afforded me the opportunity to see the value in things that are purely an expression of me. My time is never empty or wasted. _____________________________________________________________ 25 said: the more you understand HER point of view
the better your chances for real lasting change and
the better the chances of her letting you back into her heart.
Rick said: Yes, I have gotten to the point where I can understand her points about how she felt with me, and understand her own personal issues she's dealing with.
I really do see her thawing and in doing so we have had the opportunity to have great discussions and understanding. It's so refeshing to do this without any of the old miscommunication.
Lately, it seems like when we first met in that we plan to do stuff and it is it so much fun.
Last night she was telling me that she has had a lifelong fear of trying new things, of feeling selfish when doing so, of wanting to be fulfilled but not sure how or where to begin. She spoke about how she never really had a time for herself or to self-discover. She had bher traumatic childhood days, then her lost teen years, then gave herself over 100% to motherhood, so she really never stopped the train to figure her sfl out, to resolve her demons, to take control of her own life.
In the end we agreed that she now has that opportunity. She's young, healthy, smart, makes good money, and the kids have gotten older and less demanding of her time. We agreed that although she never had this opportunity, I did when I was in my early years, so now its her turn. I don't need to work around the clock like I did in the early days so I offered to take on a lot of the duties she always did and she will teach me in some of the things I never did. That will free her up to take the time and explore. We spoke about our travel plans and some of the things she wants to do by herself to prove something to herself. She spoke a lot about her fears that have prevented this in the past and felt good that she could express these to me, and is taking steps da to day to progress. All in all a great discussion.
In the meantime I will keep focusing on being a better person, never assuming any guaranty, being a giver, and taking this day by day.
Great post Rick. Though our situations are slightly different (my wife is out of the house - but almost ALL her stuff is still here, and she's SAID she wants a divorce, will mention it briefly once every 7-10 days but hasnt filed or anything), I feel like my wife's past traumas and my own actions/inactions exacerbating them play a huge role in what's going on. So I've bookmarked the thread so when it gets frustrating, or feeling TOO uphill, I can come back for inspiration.
Rick said: I heard the D word all too much myself, and sadly lobbed it back at her too. I guess there is truth to what Michele W D says that its not over until its over. Pls just hang in there because you never know. I never thought my W and I would ever get back to a place of being cordial and even maybe R, but it wasn't until I accepted what DB'ing was saying that anything happened. And I was a lost and as "f" up as possible.
Thanks, Rick. For whatever it's worth, I've pressed the "I Believe Button" with the DB program, and am pretty much 'all in' (That's about as many euphemisms as I think I can fit in such a short post! )
Me: 36 Her: 35 Together 7/09 Married 8/7/10 Separate rooms since at least April 11 "I've decided I want a divorce" 12/5/11 She moves out of state/files 2/7/12 Dissolution final 5/12
have you tried a few sessions with a DB coach? They seem pricey but in my area they are the same price as T and with a pkg of 3, DB coaches may be cheaper. They are very specific and helpful.
I highly recommend them. In 2005 I gave my m about a 10% of success and said that out loud...and here I am.
Good luck all
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
25- have already done two. Need to call and set up my third, I was thinking of making that call today.
Me: 36 Her: 35 Together 7/09 Married 8/7/10 Separate rooms since at least April 11 "I've decided I want a divorce" 12/5/11 She moves out of state/files 2/7/12 Dissolution final 5/12
)