WHG: Down the rabbit hole I guess

[workinghardguy]

Yes, it is one of the things I continue to work on. And here is a "but" I suppose... however, one of the frustrations is that of course the unique qualities of each sitch are impossible to know. So while we are all desperate for help and guidance, that can only go so far. It's not possible to know the ins and outs of every sitch or every relationship.

[workinghardguy]

Wow... so that didn't go so well...

I called my W this afternoon and asked her to meet me for coffee to discuss telling the kids about the D. I figured time to man up, and while I would've liked a little more time to plan, Sunday is coming fast and who knows how long my nerve would last.

So I left work early and we met for coffee before the kids got off of school. I outlined my concerns and what I wanted. Namely that telling the kids now is not good for them, that we can tell them mom and dad are having struggles and that is why mom is living in a different room, and that we will see where things go.

She didn't really like it very much. She became extremely angry at me. This marks the first time I've really seen the WAS anger when they don't think they're getting what they want. She became very emotional and said under no circumstances is it going past this Sunday. That yes, it is selfish in many ways, but that's too damn bad. She went on a little riff about how her parents gave her no notice, no warning and then when they did tell her they gave her false hope that they would get back together some day. That she is not going to do that to her kids. She will tell them the truth, from the start, and with plenty of warning. She also threw in that SS's counselor said the timing didn't matter... what mattered was how we handled it and how we handle each other.

We "discussed" for quite some time. She became pretty vicious. Reverting to behaviors I haven't seen in a while. Statements like "don't give them hope because we will never be together again", "I have never loved you and never will feel that way about you", "I need to get out of our <profanity> room and away from you", yada, yada, yada. Accusing me of using the kids as a tool to slow down her divorce plans. Telling me it's despicable to use the kids as a wedge. Then she finally broke down crying and, in a moment of what I believe to be classic projection, said that I am blaming her for everything, for the divorce, for hurting the kids, for scarring them for life, for ruining their childhoods, for destroying our marriage. Mind you I've never said those things, nor frankly do I think that. We both got here together... is it equal blame? Who knows... but that's really neither here nor there. We are where we are... blaming doesn't deal with the problem.

It ended with her getting up and walking out to the parking lot. She said she is going to tell them on Sunday. She is willing to wait for me to get home from church so we can tell them together or she can just do it while I'm gone. She is willing to modify the message to S5 so that we don't use "divorce", and she's willing to tell them that we're not moving right now. That for at least the next few months we all will still be living together.

I feel I dug in hard. I pushed and pushed... to the point that she was almost yelling at me at one point and people were starting to stare. But she is headstrong and going to do this. So I guess I have a choice to make. Be a party to the event or not.

It's been tense around the house tonight. We had dinner as a family and then I took SS and SD and we played XBox while she sat in the other room alone. Then S and I played some games while she sat alone in the other room as well. She's also feeling sick tonight so she just laid down and will be up late to get into "night shift" mode.

I just ignored her and let her wallow in her self-pity. She then ended up making one of my favorite dishes, unrequested and unasked for, as a side to our planned dinner. I'm not sure if she was just craving it too or if it was some type of half-baked peace offering. Things seemed less tense when she laid down.

So unless something breaks in the next few days I have to make a hard decision.

[2thepoint]

WOW! Tough day! I don't really know what to tell you other than to share how my sitch evolved to the point of notifying the kids about the decision to split up and then maybe a suggestion or two.

Before we told the kids but after W and I had already talked about her unhappiness and desire to break our family apart, W moved to the guest bedroom. She was in that bedroom for probably 2 months before I finally moved out.

I know you have said that your W is free to stay in any room she desires but that you would not be moving to another room.

If I may, I think you should consider moving yourself to a room of your choosing. I say this because what your W needs right now is SPACE and as much as she can get or you can give her.

She seems to be feeling out of control and feels she must take certain steps to regain control of her life. If you were to relinquish your bedroom, you would be giving her that space she so desperately needs and that may in fact show her that you are willing to yield to her wishes in an important way.

So, what do you think would be the reaction of your W if she came home from work and found you sleeping in a different part of the house? Do you think she would see that as a gift from you?

I just think that now is the time to try something different, something to diffuse the volatile situation that you are currently in.

[workinghardguy]

It's certainly an idea 2TP... sort of throwing one's self on the sword as it were? The issue right now is the bed question. We don't have a spare one, and she refuses to get one. I don't know if it would be received or just consumed as so many other things have been. Of course it would only be temporary until they move. Of course if they don't move it becomes more permanent...

Though it would save me having to lug the damn treadmill up two flights of stairs

I will have to think on it. I know this sounds so petty but I am so attached to my bed Not to mention that when my son wakes up he comes and gets me first, always. Of course maybe it would be good for him to wake up mommy at 5:45 in the morning for a while Get her used to that experience

I had planned to get a used bedframe and mattress for SD's room after they move so that when the kids stay over there's a place for her to sleep. I could just use anything I get in there easy enough.

It would be a pretty dramatic move I'll give you that. The more I type the more I am warming to it. One complaint she's had is that I don't decisively deal with problems until she can't handle them anymore, then I intercede.

[cat04]

WHG,

I have read your threads and have caught up pretty well.

I am curious, because I see very little change from your early posts to current posts, what exactly are you working so hard at?

Besides remaining controlling, condescending, and superior in your thinking.

You have some really good people posting to you and you choose to dismiss them because you either don't like what they are saying to you or because the specifics of each situation are different.

The specifics may be different, I can guarantee that there is no one here on these boards that has experienced the trauma that I experienced in my M, but the overall concept of DB, the overall concept of control, the overall concept of making changes that NEED to be made is the same.

Whether you use the word but, however, insomuchas, or anything else, it is still a but...and is usually followed by an excuse or a justification. It completely invalidates everything proceeding it.

Excuses and justifications allow US to remain the victim in any situation.

It may be time to actually stop trying to control things, to stop trying to manipulate your W into doing things your way (whether the end result is one that you like or not) and start trying to find ways to see things in a more positive light.

Does what you are going through suk? Yes it does.

Can you make it better? That is entirely up to you.

You talk the DB talk pretty well.

It doesn't appear to me that you have figured out how to walk the walk yet though.

I may not know your exact situation, but I had a live in MLCer on and off for the better part of 12 years. Until I found a better way to navigate my situation, I too was able to fall into the victim role of having it all happen to me. I used many of the same words and phrases that I see you using. It was a very comfortable place to be for a long time.

Until I learned differently.

Dignity, grace, honor, self respect, self love, forgiveness...were things that I learned to strive for. Qualities I wanted to have and to show the world. It was the way I have navigated the last few years with my MLCer and how I live my life now.

It's easy to come on here, say the words that make it appear that you tried, and you can say that you did when it is all said and done.

It is harder to come here, face your demons, make the changes and KNOW that you did everything possible with no guarantee of the outcome or any regrets that you didn't give it 100%.

You say you are DBing hard now.

I'm not seeing it.

DB says to make the changes in yourself to make yourself a better person and be the better option.

DBing says to do something different, to do what works.

"I feel I dug in hard. I pushed and pushed" is not doing something different, nor is it working.

You identified something from a post earlier that you do not like about yourself. That is an opportunity to learn and grow. A mistake is only a mistake if you don't make the choice to learn and grow from it.

I have to make a hard decision.

I agree.

What might that decision be?

[workinghardguy]

"I feel I dug in hard. I pushed and pushed" is not doing something different, nor is it working.

It is doing something different Cat. In the past I never would have pushed against my W on anything. I was a doormat and did anything and everything to please her. She said jump, I said how high. In fact, she didn't have to say jump, I would assume she was going to say jump and would do it anyway. Whether she wanted me to jump or not.

There have been a select number of times since the bomb that I have stood up for myself. I am still picking those battles and my heart is in my throat every time. Why am I terrified of my W's disapproval, even now? Well, that's one of the things I'm trying to tackle through counseling.

It may be time to actually stop trying to control things, to stop trying to manipulate your W into doing things your way (whether the end result is one that you like or not) and start trying to find ways to see things in a more positive light.

Generalities are great, but could you provide a specific example? I am genuinely am not seeing where I am manipulating my W to do much of anything. I am not stopping the D, I have not dug in against it, I don't track what she's doing or much care anymore, we've put together a debt retirement plan to put us both on the best footing we can be... what am I manipulating her to do? I honest to god do not see it.

Besides remaining controlling, condescending, and superior in your thinking.

Again... please, how am I controlling my W? Condescending and superior I will readily admit to. They are things I am trying to work on. To stop being so judgmental of people, including my W. It is a work in progress. But I cannot see where I am controlling anything she does. If she wants to go to her friends house, she goes. if she wants to go out, she goes. If she wants to ask me about divorce issues she does and I respond. I she wants to talk child custody issues she does and I respond. This isn't to say that she doesn't bear house duties... we both do. When I go out she is with the kids and vice versa. I am at a loss on how I am controlling a single, damn thing she does.

[workinghardguy]

You have some really good people posting to you and you choose to dismiss them because you either don't like what they are saying to you or because the specifics of each situation are different.

I will also say this Cat... there are times I don't follow guidance for a variety of reasons... they are varied...

At times they go against my own values. That's my problem and I readily admit that, but my values are what they are.

At times they have gone directly opposite of what my DB coach has said to do.

At times the suggestions you get are opposed to one another. There are some who advocate a more aggressive stance... others who advocate a more passive. You follow suggestion A and get beat up by person B. And then the reverse happens. Quite frankly it gets a little crazy, among the craziness that already exists.

And yes those sound like excuses, but I suppose they are. I have noticed very few folks who are willing to push back against posters. I am not one of those. I am not perfect but I also believe in myself and my understandings to some degree. My gut told me that having the discussion with my w in a public place, one more time, about telling the kids was going to go badly. But I did it because I am desperate. I am willing to try anything that someone thinks might help. Oldtimer has posted frequently and I have pushed back a few times. Lord knows what I've been doing hasn't worked, so I tried something else. Well... that blew up too.

And this isn't to blame Oldtimer or say that I fault the advice. What I was doing absolutely wasn't working. So if what you're doing doesn't work then do something different, right? Well, that worked worse than the other things I was doing. Or maybe it didn't work worse... hell, I don't know. I view the fact that she got emotional, angry, and aggressive as bad. But is it bad? My brain is programmed to tell me it's bad because if my W is mad I've failed. But maybe her knowing where I stand and that I'm trying to protect the kids has some value.

During the argument she did accuse me of trying to talk her out of divorcing me. I don't understand that perspective, but clearly that's how she saw it. It did allow me to look at her and say (though it's been said before) "I know you are done, I am saying these things out of concern for the kids. I am trying to find a way to do what the counselors have suggested and still meet your need of moving out of our room. I know you do not want to be married and I am not getting in the way of that." Did that have value? Maybe. If it did it made the altercation worth it. If it didn't... well, I tried something different than I've tried before.

[Rick1963]

WHG there are no black and white answers. Take what you can from everyone's responses and try to make the best choices you can. This all very much svcks and we all what to help each other deal and heal. There are no experts regarding this kind of stuff. In mental health it is all a hit or miss kinda of deal. It all lives in the gray. Hang in there

[workinghardguy]

Thanks Rick... and I just realized I never answered Cat's question of what decision will I make?

I feel I have to be here when we tell the kids. Every C we've talked to says we need to do it together. I can't think of cowarding out of it, even though I don't want it to happen. There is a part of me that wants to call her bluff. That wants to see what would happen if I'm not here... would she really just do it herself? But to me that's playing with too much fire, and I'm not the one going to get burned... the kids are. And it strikes me as quite manipulative.

Not to mention it seems kind of childish... it's not like I can stay away forever. At some point I have to come home and we would tell them then. It's just pointless mindgames at that point.

So I don't want to do it but I don't see an option other than. And yes that sounds victim-like I agree.

And it's funny... because I started my day thinking this way... and stopped myself. I said that instead of thinking about everything that I might lose, maybe I should look at what I still have. Even in the worst case of things now I still have a S who I love and who loves me. I have a W who has agreed (at least so far) that she wants me to be a part of the lives of SS and SD. I have a house. I would have a 50/50 time split with my S. I have a W who speaks to me, most days at least, and whom I still get along with (which I know... is probably part of the problem).

I know that it could be so much worse. I know others here have it so much worse. So I should stop complaining and focus on what I have rather than what I'm losing. I really did start my day like this. And I revisited it during my IC session. And then somewhere else in the day it got lost in the fog.

[sayitaintso]

I don't want to chime in w/ my .02 WHG, I just want you to know I'm sorry for where you are and am feeling for you. I hope this Sun. goes as well as it can.

When my WAW & I told my 3 kids, 14,9,&6 it was one of the hardest things I ever had to do but I think what is most important are your actions with them over the following days, weeks, months, etc.. They will see that you are there for them and always will be no matter what and they will have that security and love and follow your lead in knowing that they will be ok.

Best!!