WAW told me she idoesn't want to be married.

[witz10]

I didn't put much thought into the gift for my W cause I didn't want to go overboard. [/b]
[color:#CC0000]
because? B/C you thought it would come off as pursuit? I didn't put much thought into her gift because I didn't want her to think I was pursuing her. I had tons of ideas for her and alwyas do. However I don't know how to shop small, lets say and I had to do that for the first time.

so when times are good, you are good at gift giving...are there other things you are good at when times are good. Yea I am a decent cook, great father and I used to be able to listen and talk with her for hours. Before all this happened.

I am still getting used to this. Why should I get her something that I know she will look nice in and I can't appreciate how she looks in it. I went for something that seemed the kids would like to give her.

Witz you have been seeing a T for sometime now...what is HIS diagnosis? Sitch Depression and moving on. Working on this. He has also asked me about dating which throws me off a bit.

Does the T seem to help you? At times but I have to admit I am debating about looking for a new one.

What would your w say about it? She would tell me to look for a new one. But try new things first with him.

If you don't mind my asking, seems you have some underlying issues having nothing to do with your w BUT that have probably affected her.Yea I have a lot of issues against my family at the moment. I took there belief. By working for the family it benefits the whole family. I should never have lumped my W and kids into this whole family. They are first and nothing else. Also against myself for not having the balls to ask for additional money back when we needed it.

Can you tell me some more about YOU and YOUR 180s? Past two weeks I have been just doing not asking. I was going to ask instead I am just doing now.

not just mistakes you'll avoid...b/c for the life of me I just still feel like you are skimming the surface of your role in this. My role in this is I screwed up and didn't talk with the one person that I should have been able to talk with. I should have told her I didn't like what she was doing when I was at work. I should have spoken to her about work I let her and my kids down.

or at least what you post here. And yet you are quick to feel and express anger at her, often. Def Mechanism

I don't sense a profound remorse in you for your role in getting here, yet your other comments suggest you have been less than an ideal h. The past two years I have been just floating on by Letting her take control. Unlike in the past when I was helping all the time and making decisions.

I'm sorry to say this but the success stories here are not frequent BUT They do outnumber the success stories of couples in trouble who do NOT DB b/c they stay in their old patterns

and rehash the past, never letting it go AND never learning from it. I am and have learned from my past. I just want her to be the one that I share them with. If it is someone else then it will be her loss. Which is not what I want. She deserves better and she deserves me but only she can make this decision.

But the success stories here, always include the LBSer changing themselves...

taking a brave DEEP look inside...and facing some things that are tough to face [i]but doing it anyhow...

and changing THEMSELVES. I am changing myself becoming stronger and more assertive which I was not in the past. I have seen changes and can tell there is a difference in me. I am speaking out more instead of cowering in the corner.

whenever you concede a flaw you follow it with a justification AND OR an attack or snide remark for your w.
[b]
So I sincerely do hope you'll take that mirror and stare awhile...its a def mech again i know i have to break. i was always the joker and thats how i would battle.

I hope I answered some of your questions mmore sincere. Thank you again

[25yearsmlc]

I didn't put much thought into the gift for my W cause I didn't want to go overboard. [/b]

because? B/C you thought it would come off as pursuit? ----However I don't know how to shop small, lets say and I had to do that for the first time.

so when times are good, you are good at gift giving...are there other things you are good at when times are good. Yea I am a decent cook, great father and I used to be able to listen and talk with her for hours. Before all this happened.


THe rest of my question was what else changes for you when things are NOT going well...and you ignored it.


I am still getting used to this. Why should I get her something that I know she will look nice in and I can't appreciate how she looks in it.

b/c the gift would be for HER, not you...b/c it's an act of love, that's why



I went for something that seemed the kids would like to give her.

Witz you have been seeing a T for sometime now...what is HIS diagnosis? Sitch Depression and moving on. Working on this.

Does the T seem to help you? At times but I have to admit I am debating about looking for a new one.

What would your w say about it? She would tell me to look for a new one. But try new things first with him.

If you don't mind my asking, seems you have some underlying issues having nothing to do with your w BUT that have probably affected her.Yea I have a lot of issues against my family at the moment. I took there belief. By working for the family it benefits the whole family.


this^^^ VERY vague and mysterious. And it is contradictory. If you don't want their beliefs, drop them. Their beliefs apparently don't serve you or work for your life. THey are not your beliefs. And it clearly did NOT benefit your m or family.

As adults at some point we can no longer blame our parents. There has to be a "Statute of Limitations" beyond which we cannot hold them responsible for our choices. We choose what is in our lives and we create it. That's right, we create it.

No one else does...til you believe that, you'll be like a piece of furniture with someone else placing you and using you...but you could be a man who is in charge of HIS life and no one else's, IF he'll but take charge of it.


I should never have lumped my W and kids into this whole family. They are first and nothing else. Also against myself for not having the balls to ask for additional money back when we needed it.


What can you change about that ^^^ Now? Do it...what is stopping you?

oh, it's going to be uncomfortable? ALL your options now are uncomfortable...so keep it simple and do the right thing and let the cards fall where they fall.


Can you tell me some more about YOU and YOUR 180s? Past two weeks I have been just doing not asking. I was going to ask instead I am just doing now.


that is Not specific. Do you understand what I am asking?

You still focus on HER and her reaction to whatever you do or say.

What do you bring to the table? Do you have passions or hobbies or friends?


not just mistakes you'll avoid...b/c for the life of me I just still feel like you are skimming the surface of your role in this.


My role in this is I screwed up

how???? what was the screw up?

and didn't talk with the one person that I should have been able to talk with.

meaning what? You backstabbed her or deceived or what? The more vague you are the harder it is to help you AND the harder it is for you to specifically change your behaviors...


I should have told her I didn't like what she was doing when I was at work. I should have spoken to her about work I let her and my kids down.

You are still missing the point...you are still making this about what SHE did wrong and

your "mistake" was not pointing it out more or sooner?? Really???

Wow that's NOT insightful of you. Be brave. Dig deeper...soon!




or at least what you post here. And yet you are quick to feel and express anger at her, often. Def Mechanism


well of course it's a defense mechanism...what are YOU going to do about it? How will you change your behavior? This is a big deal that requires thought and action and change....at your end.

I don't sense a profound remorse in you for your role in getting here, yet your other comments suggest you have been less than an ideal h. The past two years I have been just floating on by Letting her take control. Unlike in the past when I was helping all the time and making decisions.

is that passive aggressive, just passive/lazy or selfish or being pathologically conflict avoidant? ALL of those options need to change whichever one it is or combination....

I'm sorry to say this but the success stories here are not frequent BUT They do outnumber the success stories of couples in trouble who do NOT DB b/c they stay in their old patterns

and rehash the past, never letting it go AND never learning from it.


I am and have learned from my past. I just want her to be the one that I share them with. If it is someone else then it will be her loss. Which is not what I want. She deserves better and she deserves me but only she can make this decision.

she cannot make this decision without seeing change in YOUR BEHAVIOR..

why should she if her needs will remain unmet?


But the success stories here, always include the LBSer changing themselves...

taking a brave DEEP look inside...and facing some things that are tough to face [i]but doing it anyhow...

and changing THEMSELVES.


I am changing myself becoming stronger and more assertive which I was not in the past. I have seen changes and can tell there is a difference in me. I am speaking out more instead of cowering in the corner.
[b]

sounds good IF being too passive and weak was really your problem. What would SHE say your flaws or issues are? Think about that.....a lot....


whenever you concede a flaw you follow it with a justification AND OR an attack or snide remark for your w.

So I sincerely do hope you'll take that mirror and stare awhile...its a def mech again i know i have to break. i was always the joker and thats how i would battle.

I hope I answered some of your questions mmore sincere. Thank you again

Jokes are great when they diffuse tension and comfort.

but when they are cruel comments under the guise of "just kidding" then they are simply cruel but delivered in a cowardly way...I've done it myself so I recognize it's temptation.

Did you read the WAW's letter to Denver? I thought I posted it to you before and apologize if I'm repeating myself but

here it is...from a WAW to Denver....see if ANY of it could be written by your wife...(some won't apply but....s o m e w i l l.....

FROM A WAW TO A LBS HUSBAND WHO HAS CHANGED AND WONDERS WHY HIS WAW HAS NOT COME HOME YET AND HOW SHE CAN BE AT ALL INTERESTED IN OM….

When I read your interactions with your wife, I could so easily identify with your wife's feelings/words/sentiments. I have been in her position in my M. I was the ignored, the devalued, the one who was treated as less than. I even got chills when she talked about the FB issues, because I've been there and done that, bought the t-shirt Of course, my H went a step further and cheated, then left, adding an extra crunchy layer of goodness to my sitch.

One of the things that I have tried my hardest not to do, is not to engage with another man. Not just because of my marriage vows, but because I knew that when I truly engaged in any type of R with another man, it would make it that much harder to ever reconcile with my H.

Because being treated differently (better) than the way he treated me would lessen him so much in my eyes. So, I can see where your W is coming from.

When you've been mistreated to the point where you actually let go of your R enough to let another person into your heart or bed or whatever, it takes a boatload of work to get back on a page where you're recommitted to being with your S - and those uncertainties that she's expressed to you, I don't know if you truly, truly fathom how deep they run.

Six months of getting back on a page where you treat her the way that any wife should be treated does not even scratch the surface of the years, the intrinsic devaluing that occurs when you're systematically mistreated for such a stretch of time.

And I promise you that while you have recommitted and worked for 6 months, your W has simply been trying to get to a point where she can even buy into the changes, where she can even think that you might have changed and not scoff at the thought.

Because when you build up hope again and again and again in your H and he crushes it again and again and again, you develop a thick skin, a protective doubt, a conditioned response to even the slightest, grainiest seed of hope. You are taught that when you hope, you will be disappointed. When you try, you will fail. You are taught that you will never be what he wants and it is hard to shake what you have come to believe is reality.

And for the changes that you've made to have come only when she walked away and OM became competition, I can definitely see how she can doubly doubt that you truly want to be in a M with her, and not just to win.

Even you today say that you are not sure that you don't just want to win.

Step 1 - figure that sh!t out ASAP. Because if you actually do manage to convince her that you really do want her and really have recommitted to her and you actually just want to win, you'll put her through hell."

Step 2 - CHANGE YOU...and worry about her reactions and changes LATER

__________


good luck witz

[sandi2]

Is this her midlife crisis still

Why do you think it's a MLC? B/c that would be easier to accept?

[witz10]

I have been very busy with a lot of family things this past week and this is my first time back on here. I will respond when I have another free minute.

However my W emailed me and we are setting up a meeting to talk through what is going on currently. I am trying to make heads or tails of it and would like some opinions. Now she has told me in the past that she wanted to set something up like this and I have told her to pick a time and I will show up. Also I did not want to do this the past two weeks with it being the holidays.

Here is her email to me

I also wanted to write you because for some reason we simply can not figure out how to communicate. I know I have asked a few times to set aside time to meet without the kids to discuss the finances and separation stuff, but it doesn't seem to happen. And frankly I get annoyed feeling like I even have to schedule it. I honestly don't know how to do this and how to talk to you. I don't know how to be friend - because we clearly aren't doing a good job at that and I really don't know what to do or say about it.

I know you want things to work out and for us to be a family again and I still have no idea where I am on that. You also know I am just in a weird place myself - or however you want to put it, and I can't tell you where I am or what I want. I want the kids to be happy, I want us to be able to communicate - because we kinda need that to work out - but beyond that I just don't know. Nor can I tell you to keep hanging on or waiting. That is a personal decision you need to make for yourself when you are ready to. I just know there are things we need to discuss - that we haven't been able to, that has to get addressed one way or another.

Some friends I have spoken to think she wants me to drop the axe on us and alleviate the guilt from her.

[25yearsmlc]

I have been very busy with a lot of family things this past week and this is my first time back on here. I will respond when I have another free minute.

However my W emailed me and we are setting up a meeting to talk through what is going on currently. I am trying to make heads or tails of it and would like some opinions. Now she has told me in the past that she wanted to set something up like this and I have told her to pick a time and I will show up. Also I did not want to do this the past two weeks with it being the holidays.

Here is her email to me

I also wanted to write you because for some reason we simply can not figure out how to communicate. I know I have asked a few times to set aside time to meet without the kids to discuss the finances and separation stuff, but it doesn't seem to happen. And frankly I get annoyed feeling like I even have to schedule it. I honestly don't know how to do this and how to talk to you. I don't know how to be friend - because we clearly aren't doing a good job at that and I really don't know what to do or say about it.


I see no mystery here. She wants to talk about at least some details on what is coming. Change is coming and she cares about how the kids are affected and you and she. Nothing weird about her NOT having her head in the sand.

you don't have to finalize things or DECIDE to be married or divorced. That is NOT what she is asking for.



I know you want things to work out and for us to be a family again and I still have no idea where I am on that. You also know I am just in a weird place myself - or however you want to put it, and I can't tell you where I am or what I want. I want the kids to be happy, I want us to be able to communicate - because we kinda need that to work out - but beyond that I just don't know.

I get total honesty from her on this. It's confusing b/c she is confused. You are lucky, imo, that she's open at all to making things work.

This ^^^contains HOPE that you will change enough to make things work, but your pride is blinding you to that. How sad!


Nor can I tell you to keep hanging on or waiting. That is a personal decision you need to make for yourself when you are ready to.

She is Not testing you, at least not overtly -but I think how you react now will be THE most important factor in the future of your m...and my God, she's being SO FAIR and respectful to you here. Do you not see this??....


I just know there are things we need to discuss - that we haven't been able to, that has to get addressed one way or another.

totally reasonable!!! ^^^^ and she's doing NO BLAMING here, not making it your fault that the talks don't happen but judging by your reaction I'm guessing it probably is you stalling or freaking....Just make sure you don't blame either.


Some friends I have spoken to think she wants me to drop the axe on us and alleviate the guilt from her.

Really? Well, pardon me but those friends are morons...drop the axe on them. Sheesh!

IMO- She sounds sincere, OPEN to reconciliation, OPEN to real discussion

and maturely wants to figure out, at a minimum, the logistics of what is going to happen. What is wrong with that?

Can you do that or not? IF NOT, then get a mc to mediate the basics only.

NOT to fix the marriage (unless you find a great mc)

but to handle the immediate needs.

But I'd hope you could demonstrate the NEW YOU in conflict resolution, instead of having to hire a 3rd party to work out things that ALL couples have to work out....I mean most of this stuff is normal life stuff with some snafus for the logisitics of separation. But as a military family with deployments, we had these talks all the time. Try to look at it that way if you must.

"how are we paying our bills this month? Where are you staying/and the kids/me?" "How much will I need to earn/contribute?? Which debts are our priorities?

What about utilities, your income, me getting a raise? A new job?"

these are things ALL couples must discuss....

in your sitch they are more delicate -

but her note to you is peaceful and mature and open ended and HOPEFUL....


BUT somehow, you think she's dropping an axe on you?

Where'd you get THAT in THIS LETTER??? What part did I miss? Really though

How CAN she talk to you, if THAT is how YOU see things? Your spin on this note is so off putting and weirdly defensive and paranoid,

I'm sorry to hit you so hard with this 2 x 4 but you have a real chance here...don't blow it!/u]
[u]
Show her you are a calm reasonable man, who is in control of HIS own emotions WHILE Not trying to control others',

and you are NOT a punitive or angry man, but an uber sensitive & responsible parent AND PARTNER....


Discuss things by LISTENING to her first and foremost. Then recap what she said so you know you are not mistranslating.

Do not read into things, take her words at face value. Hear what she says, NOT what you fear she means... You can always ask her to clarify.

You are in the "reconnaissance" phase of it, so gather data from her so you can decipher her priorities. HER need to feel secure and safe and, hopefully, valued and loved...by YOU.

Your ultimate goal is to figure out ways to meet those needs INSIDE the marriage, right?

But for now, again, you are just gathering data and reassuring her of your motivation--wanting what is best for HER and the family and you...like SHE does

and make sure you act as if you assume the same of her. (I believe that anyhow, but even if I didn't, it does NOT help to accuse her of being selfish or a bad mother, etc)--

DB 101, do what helps and do NOT do what hurts the marriage...

and if you are NOT ready to decide something, then say "I need time to process that and reflect on it" But pick your battles wisely.

If she wants to have the kids at 7pm on wednesdays and you'd prefer 7:30, ask yourself how you want to appear at this stage of things. Cooperative or stubborn and mean? Angry or contrite?

are you making that brave inward journey, and trying to see things from HER point of view (and reflecting that w/your behavior)

OR are you

"teaching her a lesson!"??

And please do NOT set up expectations about resolving all things in one marathon. Too many things to decide that need pondering. She may say something that seems extreme to you but don't react that way. Tell her you were NOT ready for that to occur and need time to reflect. No outright "NO" answers for now. Nothing is being signed or written in cement anyhow so don't get too worked up about figuring out details that really do need decisions.


so don't expect to resolve all things in one discussion. Set up the first talk to decide what it is specifically that needs addressing. Maybe set a few items for the agenda (not necessarily with those words) but keep it simple at first. 3-5 things max...

I'd limit that first talk to a max of one hour. Tell her ahead of time you only have one hour BUT you'll pick it up later. It's not that work is more important

but that you think it'll be better that way so no one gets defensive, too tired, or gets overwhelmed. You want this to be productive after all. So you will commit to resolving the basics by a given date...(2 weeks? 3? Don't stall too much or it'll look like stalling). This shows smart priorities and a mature level of expectation AND leadership...which she needs a lot from you.

You lacked it with your family...so show it to her now. In a smart loving strong way. Be your best self now.



Make sense?

So this means you can have 2-4 opportunities to show her the new improved you. The confident strong YOU...the man who'll provide for his family just fine thank you, AND be moving on to a new good life...

What will that look like? Who will that sound like? Figure out who you want to become and be that man ASAP...a man only a fool would leave.

As for OM....Remember my post to you of the 29th? Re read that before you meet with her for ANYTHING...

SO have you figured out how to [b]be a man only a fool would leave, without overtly pressuring here? No pressure needed b/c After all,

if you show your changes, then she is the fool who loses


[/b]



okay? Does this feel authentic for you?


Good luck

[Denver_2010]

I didn't put much thought into the gift for my W cause I didn't want to go overboard. [/b]

because? B/C you thought it would come off as pursuit? ----However I don't know how to shop small, lets say and I had to do that for the first time.

so when times are good, you are good at gift giving...are there other things you are good at when times are good. Yea I am a decent cook, great father and I used to be able to listen and talk with her for hours. Before all this happened.


THe rest of my question was what else changes for you when things are NOT going well...and you ignored it.


I am still getting used to this. Why should I get her something that I know she will look nice in and I can't appreciate how she looks in it.

b/c the gift would be for HER, not you...b/c it's an act of love, that's why



I went for something that seemed the kids would like to give her.

Witz you have been seeing a T for sometime now...what is HIS diagnosis? Sitch Depression and moving on. Working on this.

Does the T seem to help you? At times but I have to admit I am debating about looking for a new one.

What would your w say about it? She would tell me to look for a new one. But try new things first with him.

If you don't mind my asking, seems you have some underlying issues having nothing to do with your w BUT that have probably affected her.Yea I have a lot of issues against my family at the moment. I took there belief. By working for the family it benefits the whole family.


this^^^ VERY vague and mysterious. And it is contradictory. If you don't want their beliefs, drop them. Their beliefs apparently don't serve you or work for your life. THey are not your beliefs. And it clearly did NOT benefit your m or family.

As adults at some point we can no longer blame our parents. There has to be a "Statute of Limitations" beyond which we cannot hold them responsible for our choices. We choose what is in our lives and we create it. That's right, we create it.

No one else does...til you believe that, you'll be like a piece of furniture with someone else placing you and using you...but you could be a man who is in charge of HIS life and no one else's, IF he'll but take charge of it.


I should never have lumped my W and kids into this whole family. They are first and nothing else. Also against myself for not having the balls to ask for additional money back when we needed it.


What can you change about that ^^^ Now? Do it...what is stopping you?

oh, it's going to be uncomfortable? ALL your options now are uncomfortable...so keep it simple and do the right thing and let the cards fall where they fall.


Can you tell me some more about YOU and YOUR 180s? Past two weeks I have been just doing not asking. I was going to ask instead I am just doing now.


that is Not specific. Do you understand what I am asking?

You still focus on HER and her reaction to whatever you do or say.

What do you bring to the table? Do you have passions or hobbies or friends?


not just mistakes you'll avoid...b/c for the life of me I just still feel like you are skimming the surface of your role in this.


My role in this is I screwed up

how???? what was the screw up?

and didn't talk with the one person that I should have been able to talk with.

meaning what? You backstabbed her or deceived or what? The more vague you are the harder it is to help you AND the harder it is for you to specifically change your behaviors...


I should have told her I didn't like what she was doing when I was at work. I should have spoken to her about work I let her and my kids down.

You are still missing the point...you are still making this about what SHE did wrong and

your "mistake" was not pointing it out more or sooner?? Really???

Wow that's NOT insightful of you. Be brave. Dig deeper...soon!




or at least what you post here. And yet you are quick to feel and express anger at her, often. Def Mechanism


well of course it's a defense mechanism...what are YOU going to do about it? How will you change your behavior? This is a big deal that requires thought and action and change....at your end.

I don't sense a profound remorse in you for your role in getting here, yet your other comments suggest you have been less than an ideal h. The past two years I have been just floating on by Letting her take control. Unlike in the past when I was helping all the time and making decisions.

is that passive aggressive, just passive/lazy or selfish or being pathologically conflict avoidant? ALL of those options need to change whichever one it is or combination....

I'm sorry to say this but the success stories here are not frequent BUT They do outnumber the success stories of couples in trouble who do NOT DB b/c they stay in their old patterns

and rehash the past, never letting it go AND never learning from it.


I am and have learned from my past. I just want her to be the one that I share them with. If it is someone else then it will be her loss. Which is not what I want. She deserves better and she deserves me but only she can make this decision.

she cannot make this decision without seeing change in YOUR BEHAVIOR..

why should she if her needs will remain unmet?


But the success stories here, always include the LBSer changing themselves...

taking a brave DEEP look inside...and facing some things that are tough to face [i]but doing it anyhow...

and changing THEMSELVES.


I am changing myself becoming stronger and more assertive which I was not in the past. I have seen changes and can tell there is a difference in me. I am speaking out more instead of cowering in the corner.
[b]

sounds good IF being too passive and weak was really your problem. What would SHE say your flaws or issues are? Think about that.....a lot....


whenever you concede a flaw you follow it with a justification AND OR an attack or snide remark for your w.

So I sincerely do hope you'll take that mirror and stare awhile...its a def mech again i know i have to break. i was always the joker and thats how i would battle.

I hope I answered some of your questions mmore sincere. Thank you again

Jokes are great when they diffuse tension and comfort.

but when they are cruel comments under the guise of "just kidding" then they are simply cruel but delivered in a cowardly way...I've done it myself so I recognize it's temptation.

Did you read the WAW's letter to Denver? I thought I posted it to you before and apologize if I'm repeating myself but

here it is...from a WAW to Denver....see if ANY of it could be written by your wife...(some won't apply but....s o m e w i l l.....

FROM A WAW TO A LBS HUSBAND WHO HAS CHANGED AND WONDERS WHY HIS WAW HAS NOT COME HOME YET AND HOW SHE CAN BE AT ALL INTERESTED IN OM….

When I read your interactions with your wife, I could so easily identify with your wife's feelings/words/sentiments. I have been in her position in my M. I was the ignored, the devalued, the one who was treated as less than. I even got chills when she talked about the FB issues, because I've been there and done that, bought the t-shirt Of course, my H went a step further and cheated, then left, adding an extra crunchy layer of goodness to my sitch.

One of the things that I have tried my hardest not to do, is not to engage with another man. Not just because of my marriage vows, but because I knew that when I truly engaged in any type of R with another man, it would make it that much harder to ever reconcile with my H.

Because being treated differently (better) than the way he treated me would lessen him so much in my eyes. So, I can see where your W is coming from.

When you've been mistreated to the point where you actually let go of your R enough to let another person into your heart or bed or whatever, it takes a boatload of work to get back on a page where you're recommitted to being with your S - and those uncertainties that she's expressed to you, I don't know if you truly, truly fathom how deep they run.

Six months of getting back on a page where you treat her the way that any wife should be treated does not even scratch the surface of the years, the intrinsic devaluing that occurs when you're systematically mistreated for such a stretch of time.

And I promise you that while you have recommitted and worked for 6 months, your W has simply been trying to get to a point where she can even buy into the changes, where she can even think that you might have changed and not scoff at the thought.

Because when you build up hope again and again and again in your H and he crushes it again and again and again, you develop a thick skin, a protective doubt, a conditioned response to even the slightest, grainiest seed of hope. You are taught that when you hope, you will be disappointed. When you try, you will fail. You are taught that you will never be what he wants and it is hard to shake what you have come to believe is reality.

And for the changes that you've made to have come only when she walked away and OM became competition, I can definitely see how she can doubly doubt that you truly want to be in a M with her, and not just to win.

Even you today say that you are not sure that you don't just want to win.

Step 1 - figure that sh!t out ASAP. Because if you actually do manage to convince her that you really do want her and really have recommitted to her and you actually just want to win, you'll put her through hell."

Step 2 - CHANGE YOU...and worry about her reactions and changes LATER

__________


good luck witz

That was posted to me probably 5, 6 months ago. I'm still working at it. It takes time. The changes have to be real and it is going to take a LONG time before the WAW believes and accepts those changes are real.

Denver

[witz10]

B/C you thought it would come off as pursuit?Yea I didn't want to look like the gift I was giving her was something to buy her back. I had perfume for her I bought a while back and I know she has been out of it for quite some time. But that was too personal.

THe rest of my question was what else changes for you when things are NOT going well...and you ignored it.[/color]In the past when there are problems I would get quiet and keep it in and to myself. Which I am working on and it seems to be working. I can't be afraid to speak my mind anymore I need to let the cards fall where they may. By not talking and holding it in I let the anger build up and it makes me uncomfortable. I would normally be afraid to talk because I would fear the outcome. Well by not talking and holding it in here is my outcome. Exactly what I feared.


[I am still getting used to this. Why should I get her something that I know she will look nice in and I can't appreciate how she looks in it.][/b]
Again for what I bought for her. The shirts I liked that I didn't buy were shirts for her to go out in. They would have also been a little too personal as well. The sweaters I got for her will look nice which she can wear for work or to go out in.
b/c the gift would be for HER, not you...b/c it's an act of love, that's why[/u][/color]



If you don't mind my asking, seems you have some underlying issues having nothing to do with your w BUT that have probably affected her.Yea I have a lot of issues against my family at the moment. I took there belief. By working for the family it benefits the whole family.


[this^^^ VERY vague and mysterious. And it is contradictory. If you don't want their beliefs, drop them. Their beliefs apparently don't serve you or work for your life. THey are not your beliefs. And it clearly did NOT benefit your m or family.]

The benefits when we moved back at the time worked for us. I was able to work freelance shoots when they would pop up and still have a job when I would come back after a few days. After my daughter was born and I could bring her to work with me everyday and this way we only had my son in daycare. I had the beliefs of the family grilled into me a long time ago before we were even married. So they stuck. Only in the past few years after moving back to philly did I start to realize that there beliefs were not mine but worked. I am not taking control of my life in terms of work. I am still looking for a new job and submitting to various companies.


What can you change about that ^^^ Now? Do it...what is stopping you? Nothing and that is why I am looking for new work. I am beginning to come out of the shell of a man I was. Taking more control and making my own decisions to benefit me and my future.



Can you tell me some more about YOU and YOUR 180s? Past two weeks I have been just doing not asking. I was going to ask instead I am just doing now.
[color:#CC0000]

that is Not specific. Do you understand what I am asking?
I went and purchased some new furniture for the new me.
I have more activities with kids
Still gal with friends
I still let her make first contact
Been very proactive when we are together in regards to decisions with everything.
Also looking at myself and no I am a work in progress but I am different now then when I started this journey.
Still working on other 180's


What do you bring to the table? Do you have passions or hobbies or friends?
In touch with 2 local charities to offer my time. Looking into continuing ed classes pretty much it for now with my time.

not just mistakes you'll avoid...b/c for the life of me I just still feel like you are skimming the surface of your role in this.


My role in this is I screwed up

how???? what was the screw up?

and didn't talk with the one person that I should have been able to talk with.

meaning what? You backstabbed her or deceived or what? The more vague you are the harder it is to help you AND the harder it is for you to specifically change your behaviors...

I deceived her. I tried to keep her a safe distance from the goings on at the office. I lied to her about my salary. Every other week I would take an additional $50 in my check. I told her it was agreed upon between my brother and myself. When I never asked at all and he never said anything. I tried to appease all sides by playing Switzerland. I was the go between.
I would side with the family business thinking it would benefit us later on. She asked me to look for other work numerous times and I never did. She even sent me links for places. I would send resumes sometimes but I got tired of getting turned down.
When we would be with my family I would try to stay longer even though kids had school or wife had work the next day. Usually we would agree upon a time to leave and I would not pay attention on purpose.

[/color]



But the success stories here, always include the LBSer changing themselves...
taking a brave DEEP look inside...and facing some things that are tough to face [i]but doing it anyhow...

and changing THEMSELVES.

Last night a friend of mine and I were talking and he told me he has noticed that I am carrying myself differently and my attitude is more confident and outgoing instead of being withdrawn

So I sincerely do hope you'll take that mirror and stare awhile...I have been staring at myself in the mirror and I like what I am becoming. I see more of myself now as I was when we lived in california. Not the person I was when I moved back. I am more outgoing, confident, talkative, speaking out, more fun

I am not viewing this as a game of who wins or who loses. If we split up for good then we both lose out, and our kids lose out on a real family life that I want all of us to share together. The only way to win this is to stay and remain a happy family and I need to learn from my past and take what I have learned throughout this and apply that to my new life.

[witz10]

Thank you as usual 25!!!!(((())))) I do read and reread what you write to me over and over. With your help I am finding the person I was that she loved and that I loved.
When I first got my W's email I thought exactly what you said she is confused and I have always said she has been confused.
In the past few weeks I have seen a very big difference in myself, especially when we are around each other.

Been more involved in the decision making for the past couple weeks as well. My D has to get the tubes taken out of her ear. Well at least one the Doc. couldn't see if the other was still in or not. He gave me suggestions to either wait or do surgery. I signed the consent for texted my wife and told her the options and that I would rather do the surgery now then wait. She was not happy because it is a surgery but it made more sense. So its scheduled. Not saying its a victory but in the past I would have gotten her opinion instead I came out and said I want ...

She needed my assistance this past weekend and she asked me to take my S to a bday party yesterday so she would still have time to go to the gym and food shop with my D. My S and I got home before they did. He asked me to play the wii and I told him no because I was not sure how much he had played that day or yesterday. My W came home and brought my D up who was asleep. She said she still had to get the laundry and the food from the car. She was wearing her gym shorts. I said gimme your keys and I will get everything she just handed them over. I stayed and helped put the groceries away as with my S who deserved some extra tickle time for being very helpful. My payment was my W and S made oatmeal choc chip cookies one of my favorites and W gave me 3 to take home with me. No problems she even asked how my family was doing. My brother put his dog down this past week and my bil walked out on his job and now my sister and him are having issues.

I think she sees the changes I have made. But like everyone says they need to stick. Which they are.

[witz10]

In her a previous email to me she said we are at the same place we were back in May not sure whether we were getting divorced or not. Now I moved out to give her space and time. She had told me that we would see how things went and take it slow. Start with a date here and there.
I agreed to this not her seeing someone else. I wanted to reboot our marriage.

I am assuming I am sweeping these thoughts under the rug when we meet to talk. They were things said in the past and can't be used at this time.

[MrBond]

"I think she sees the changes I have made."

You say this quite often. Stop trying to please her. If there are positive changes, you're making them for you, not her.