What else could I have done?

[25yearsmlc]

there is NO way your d's are going to positively answer you anytime soon... I understand that. Did I do Ok at least reaching out to them though? Do you think it let them know that I care and are at least thinking about them and wanting a better relationship with them?

the response you got from one of them was the BEST you could have realistically hoped for. Be grateful!
I was actually surprised that she even responded!
Now leave it alone. No more pressure on them to forgive you. You said what THEY needed to hear...and they don't need to DO anything with that for now. Let it sink in to them. For at least a few months...
Should I continue to send them a short text every week...just to let them know that I'm thinking about them?
Make sense? Yes, it makes sense.

as far as the texts...they are just words on a phone. it's literally the least you can do.

What about an actual note, or small gifts (DVDs or CDs of music they like -but not things YOU WANT them to hear or see to send a message...just things THEY like)

sent with a note and NO expectation of a thank you? Or tickets to a show or event, and at first,
maybe assume you are NOT going with them...and be okay with that.

The note does NOT bring up the R but compliments them or affirms them, e.g. "I'm proud of your school work" or "how great a sister you are", and "this music reminded me of you" b/c SHE likes it...

Wait awhile before you do this...unless a birthday is coming soon.


And listen to Sun's wisdom. It's good stuff. I am, and I appreciate her being here to help...and I appreciate you being here to help.

The circular part of this is what strikes me the most. I'm listening.

You were feeling so bad about yourself, you said, that you neglected and mistreated your family WHILE married...you had a low self esteem and took it out on them... That's it in a nutshell. I know in my heart that was the case. It doesn't matter to them though...because them being on the receiving end of 'me' far outweighed any reason that I had for being that way. I understand that too...painful as it is. I accept that however bad I hurt during those years, and the years since then...they all hurt much worse!


the reason(s) you were mean to them makes no difference to them now at all. Don't bother "explaining" it again to them. Just understand that you had no "right" or excuse for it. Period. If it helps YOU to know why, okay...but it's not relevant to their lives now.

My father was an alcoholic with a sad & rough motherless childhood & he had epilepsy at a time when they thought it meant you were retarded. (He was brilliant and got 2 doctorates).

He did the best he could at the time...but he was mean and abusive to us for 20 years...and worse to my mom. Til he died, I was not interested in why he was the way he was. And I'm not sure how many of my siblings are interested to this day.

But when my parents separated (I was 26) my dad called to give me his version of what happened, as if I had not witnessed it all, & I corrected him, ONE TIME...b/c he never asked again. They ended up not divorcing, btw...they remained friends and sort of began dating. Then my mom got cancer and dad helped her through it, then he got cancer and did not get through it. He died 56 days after diagnosis.

On his death bed he asked me and two siblings for our forgiveness for his "Sins, both the sins of commission and the sin of omission".

Thanks to the spiritual work and therapy I had experienced, when
He asked for my forgiveness, we each gave it. When I said "Dad you are forgiven", I meant it, as did they. It was the holiest moment of my life.


okay so what's new now? What's new now is the knowledge and understanding of the above. Still much pain and damage though...

so now they are reeling and hurt and lashing out- Maybe they're using the present circumstances to vent their anger and hurt to me for the years of them having to walk on eggshells.

well, probably...but the thing is, YOU are not reacting well to their comments and you have triggered many of them. You can have NO discussion about your ex wife to them again.

Do you get that? This is crucial. I picked up on that in your d's letter to you. DO NOT bad mouth their mother again. IT feels like you are attacking HER AND THEM all over again.

It's clearly traumatic, as her letter revealed. Is she the daughter who responded to your last text? AGAIN, I urge you to speak NO ILL of their mother again...ever...they know her flaws. When you criticize their mother, you unite them to her

and put a wedge between them and YOU. Is this clear to you now? Do you agree that it's important NOT to criticize her to them? Vent here or to someone NOT related to you...and the same goes for your mom I assume...if she wants a r with her grandchildren, she cannot bad mouth their mom either.


and you are sad...and not responding in a way that helps them OR YOU...and I'm working on it though. I'm being helped by information from you folks...it's sinking in. I understand the concept of 'creating moments of love' for my son and I'm taking steps to do that. And I understand the importance of not letting a word of criticism out of my mouth around my kids ever again.

Good^^^^...takes more time than you realize though. Be patient...

you feel bad about yourself b/c of your past... Yep.

and so...you interact with them in ways that so far have reeked of YOUR needs to fix or revise the past, or change it I have wanted to fix it...not revise or change it...but fix it. I don't get to. I realize that. But I can make things better between my kids and myself.

correct...you don't get to fix it. But unlike my father, you can ask for forgiveness while you are alive and well and not on your death bed...

BUT NO more forgiveness talk anytime SOON....

but you don't get to demand or expect forgiveness OR have your happiness ut being controlled by whether they give it to you either...


or MAKE them see you in a way that you want them to see you That's what I want to do now. I'd like them to see positive change, and me living my life with strength and dignity...and compassion.

BUT you are not yet there... No, but I CAN get there!

and so...you are repeating the problem. My focus has been hurt and pain and remorse, etc. For all involved. Now my focus is healing. For all involved.


but you only control YOUR HEALING...not theirs...so "lead" by example.

Be happy and upbeat and NOT NEEDY OF THEM, emotionally, AT All....b/c that is you making an emotional demand of them...no can do

even when it feels like it's mutual, for now it's not.

They are not ready for that give and take, but in time they can be IF they see consistency and kindness from you and learn to trust it. Only happens iwth time...


Now, you have told them you are sorry and that you hope THEY can let go & forgive FOR THEM, not for you...but for their happiness. That's true. I hope it comes across that way to them because that's the way it was meant.

Now, can you start doing the same? For myself? Yes, I can. I need to let go and forgive FOR ME too!

you keep asking how? Yet you think THEY know? They know what they see. Actions speak louder than words?

Well yeah. If you forgive yourself, one sign of it will be that you don't wallow or live in the past or bring it up again (unless it's good).

You will be FUN to be around and enjoying life more.

So you create good moments 'in the now, today" so that your tomorrow's will be filled with good yesterdays...& celebrate what you create with others...

no more letting the past hurt your present or future

They see their mom moving on, albeit with some zingers launched your way.
But you keep on wanting the score to be even. YOU bring up the past so they do.
Instead, become the man you want to become. DO IT... I understand that. What do you think of the quote "in order to learn from the past, a man must forgive it"? I must forgive 'the past'.


I don't know that quote but will ponder it. I think it's not covering all the situations I'm thinking of though b/c

I can let go of things that hurt me and learn only that I was a victim and now I'm a survivor...so, no forgiveness in that equation exactly...

but if it is something I DID TO OTHERS...well, I can learn that I should not have done it but not necessarily forgive myself for it. Guess I don't know the context of the quote but don't worry about it.

I guess there is an overlap of forgiveness and wisdom when reviewing the past

but If I were you, I would focus way WAY more on the DB Solution based approach and let all that past go...

ANTLERS***

See - solution based therapy is different than analysis. DBing, and Solution based therapy is about doing what helps you live better NOW...whereas

a lot of therapy and analysis goes over your past in depth, and helps you relive all the events, to see where you were, and maybe how you got there, etc. But For MANY of us that is reliving the trauma of it. NOT helpful.

Simply Knowing why your childhood sucked does not make your adult life better. Often the reverse happens and people wallow in their labels of "adult children of alcoholics" which I belonged to for awhile, or 'Al Anon", and all that did was remind me of how horrible it was. What helped?

Solution based therapy, a workshop called Essential Experience (in Philadelphia and if you are to jumpstart your changes and feel really truly good about youreslf and learn HOW to let go and forgive, then get yourself there. It was the most profound experience I ever had and helped me a lot later in life when my dad died.)

So for awhile how about NOT doing the sad life review?

Instead, happness comes more from living well, now in this moment, and hour and this day. It's all we have.



All that matters is YOU letting go of the past and showing yourself and your family that you are NOT the same man you were. That alone is exactly what I want to do. That nails it perfectly. That's the goal. I CAN do it!


What "proves" that? Not words much right now...(surely no critical ones)...

and Not the big grand gestures so much as

small but consistent changes + sufficient time = change they'll believe in.
I've found over the past few years that 'words' don't mean much...I wish I'd been able to just STFU from the beginning and just 'do' the right things. But since I didn't...well, things are still messed up and gotten worse. Do you believe that "it's never too late to start doing what's right"?


absolutely I believe that it's not too late to start doing what's right.

Especially for a parent/chld relationship. (But For now, totally let go of your ex wife.)

Work on the r's with the kids. If there's any hope for a reconciliation with your ex w, and I am NOT saying there is *BUT*

it would start with good r's with your kids...

and btw, working on the r's with your kids, requires a lot of NOT talking for now. Do you see that just letting THEM TALK, even when you do not agree, can be the loving thing to do?


"Small but consistent changes plus sufficient time = changes that they'll believe in" makes perfect sense. It's the best/only way. I see that now.

Be affirming when you talk to them, but do not talk much for now. What do you mean by "be affirming" when I talk to them?


affirming--as in positive affirmations...loving comments or observations with NO expectation of return comment or thanks...for the next year, at least, I would focus on you being a giving parent.

That means giving words of kindness WHEN THE TIME COMES FOR WORDS...which is NOT now...

and giving whatever else you give them but with NO return expected.

In parent child r's, it is the parent's job to work on the R. Even when the kids are grown up, I still believe that the parent owes it to the kid b/c of the nature of the r itself...literally parent child.

Finally, in your situation, I think the focus does need to be you giving to them for a long time before you can expect much back, if anything...I have a brother who never forgave my father. He still holds a grudge and my father is gone.

I think my brother wanted to forgive dad, at least briefly, but did not learn how and did not try for long. Just lets those wounds still fester in him...and it affects his life to this day.


I've reached out in an attempt to repair...so I'll back off now. Again though...what about sending just the short texts every week or so to let them know that I'm thinking about them?

I'll ponder that. *(Assuming no special occasion is coming)*

For now, I would not do any more texting for a few weeks...

When you do contact them, why not send a short note like I mentioned above? Some comments you can make that MIGHT apply (figure out what feels authentic to YOU)

are short positive comments to them, something that reminded you of them or an aspect of them you love. Maybe it can be about The way they can throw a ball ("not like a girl!") or "how they hustled so much on the basketball court" or were "so graceful in the skating rink", etc.

A series of short notes is better than one long one, I think.
I'm pondering now... Ever send your d flowers?

Valentine's is coming in February...MAYBE send them flowers or chocolates OR a plant they like?

Just a thought... have it sent without being there in person w/a SIMPLE note "Happy Valentine's day, Love, dad".... But no requests on it for time together or a call back...just YOU GIVING TO THEM...got it?

b/c that way you cannot be seen as expecting their thanks or gratitude...


Be kind to yourself and it will show in your kindness to others. Let it in, and let it out. I'm trying to be better to myself mentally and physically...mentally and emotionally especially! Sometimes we forget that the Golden Rule is based on the premise that we love ourselves! And I've learned, and am still learning, the importance of true self-compassion in order to be able to truly be compassionate to others.

((( )))

I'm appreciative 25!

so refresh my memory...what are your GAL activities? And your 180s?

there is a reason I ask.

Antlers, the single biggest thing you can control here is THIS^^^^ (the GAL and 180s)

and those GALs and 180s will get you on the road to being happy AND when you are happy

that will be the biggest change your kids can see in you.

Don't worry about your girls not seeing the changes. Your son will likely see it first, and he will tell them.

So You are not invisible to them, but you must also not manipulate your interactions with your son in a way that makes him feel used as a conduit to them. Make sense?

OTOH, your behavior towards HIM obviously gets back to them....so be smart and kind, and never utter a bad word about ANY of them. You may want to mention nice things to him about them now and then...but don't be obvious.

and as for the counselling, IF your son does NOT want it...then drop it...

maybe he needs less FAMILY HISTORY and more good loving living now...???

I don't know your son's issues but that's my take on it, on the surface of things at least.

Btw, Antlers you can change. I have seen it. My fil was NOT a kind or gentle man and he has been married 4 times.

He was a hard working brave Marine, but as a father/husband, a real jerk. Then he went to Vietnam (three tours in all) and when he was home, he treated wives 1-3 pretty badly and drank way too much forever.

decades later we met & It was hard for me to watch...

when wife #3 left him he was very VERY depressed. I worried he'd take his life.

He began to change his ways but was without the tools, for even the simplest of loving conversations. I noticed he had few friends...very few long term ones.
He seemed to study h and I as if we fascinated him by talking to each other like friends who valued the commentary of each other and put the other's needs ahead of our own.

Then he met wife #4...he was 62, she was 56. She's a lovely widow who had been happily married for 40 years. I guess she "taught" him how to love. They married 18 years ago.

She loves him with an iron fist in a velvet glove. She really loves him and found that is what worked for them...and he has changed into the best man HE can be. Is he super easy to be around all the time? Not exactly.

But i've seen big changes. Not just less drinking.

But less confrontational, less critical, and more calm and kind. He's the best HE can be and

he said he's "happier now than ever in his life" and in truth, he's been a very decent grandfather. Unlike my biological mil, FIL Shows up at big occasions whereas his ex w, ( my mother in law) never showed up b/c though she was the "victim" in their marriage, she was more involved with her dogs in later life than her grandchildren...

to my surprise, HE has made the grandfatherly effort and been at the graduations, not her. She passed away last year so now it's too late for MIL...but the kids still have a grandfather and they love his wife. To them she is their "other" grandmother b/c she's been around since they were little.


You can create a lot of this too ANtlers...

FIL is a better grandfather than he was a dad, to be honest.

Today, my h is grateful for the good times they have now but trust me, my FIL was abusive and Such an ANGRY man for all of my h's childhood -or fil was at war--and even when I met FIL 30 years ago, I thought he was impossibly difficult.

Hard to be around, talked loudly and monopolized the topic choice and the way the conversations went, or ended...and treated his wife like a "wench" which he called the first wives...

always had to be teaching or bossing/dictating non stop, regardless of topic or activity. If we were fishing, he'd be teasing (did not know how to love in a natural postive way. He gave the punching the arm type of "love" to his sons and called them "nerds" as terms of endearment. Point is Back then it was Hard to be around him for more than 5 minutes...

Today I see him as a father substitute and I ask his opinions of things...and I love the man. So yeah, I'd say there was progress.

yes his behavior scarred his sons (my h and his brother). But scars heal, and they are all pretty close now. Again, progress!


You CAN change Antlers...and your changes will matter. But give the kids small doses without expectations...over long periods of time.

And in time, things will improve.