Curve balls? Heck, I don't even play softball!!!

[2thepoint]

25 - "So here is my question IS and others....to all LBSers
what is it that the WAS could have said BEFORE an affair or before leaving

that would have made enough of an impact to get you to change, the way you are now?

is there ANYTHING they could have said or done that would have gotten YOUR attention AND Changed You?

other than leaving you?

Advice for the advice giver, anyone?"

Here's what I would have reacted to. If my W had said we need to talk and then we went somewhere away from the kids and she said that she is not feeling loved, appreciated, taken for granted, etc. and she is THIS close to calling it quits with the marriage and that we need to do something or we may very likely reach the point of no return. That would have gotten my attention and woken me up to the gravity of the situation.

Individual one-off comments about her not being happy or whatever, especially in settings where there are distractions would NOT have gotten my attention.

But I would have most assuredly reacted to her telling me in the appropriate setting, how unhappy she was and was contemplating breaking us apart. If she had indicated that she wanted help for US instead of throwing in the towel, I would have understood and said yes, we do, lets get started NOW!

Of course, my W was also involved in an A with OM that I was not aware of, so whether or not this could have been broached in the first place is questionable in my mind. I think events have a way of getting ahead of you and then if there was an opportunity, it was likely missed before anyone realized that the opportunity to short circuit the spiral could have even been recognized.

So, if your friend is contemplating leaving her H, this is the advice I would give her. Have the conversation with her H in a private, uninterrupted setting and put everything on the table. But do this before the decision to leave has been reached. Not after.

[sunshine76]

WOW IS you have some very wise and caring friends on this site. I believe that 25, Val and Aeolianchaos have just given all of us some really powerful advice and definetely a lot to think about.

Val's story about her uncle struck a chord with me because after my mom died I felt like I was living in a blackhole of depression and I had no idea how to get out or if I even could. The fact is, is that at some point I made a choice to start crawling out of my hole. It wasn't done alone. I had the support of my W, family and a therapist. I can tell you with absolute certainty that I never ever want to go back to that place.

Like the ladies said we need to take back control over our lives. We are in charge of writing our own life stories. I don't know about you, but at this point I don't trust my W enough to hand over the pen and say hey can you finish writing my life story. God knows if I did that she would have me being pulled behind a sleigh

I will be thinking about you and your son today. I hope that you both have an absolutely amazing Christmas.

[In_Shock]

well, morning has broken.... I read all the wonderful wonderful things written here -- and will reply more later. Thank you all so much. We really AREN'T alone. That is one absolutely fantastic thing that hit me from your posts.

On the way to MIL to see S open his gifts from W's family. Nervous. Will try to look nice, be upbeat, and make it a great day for S. Poor little guy deserves it -- and he will freak when he sees his bike!!!!

Love and hugs to you all and merry christmas!!

[Rick1963]

Hope you had a great day IS. Went church this morning and I remembered tha t you asked me to pray for u. I got there and the parking lot was empty. So no service but I prayed for u anyways . I figured I was there so why not.((()))

[25yearsmlc]

@ IS,
I saw your post of my wall. I am soo sorry you are hurting this badly. I know the holiday season doesn't help.

I don't know if you are purposefully sabotaging your chances. I agree with 25 - you are smart and seem to "get it" intellectually... so what's the deal?

IMHO - it's because you are still scratching the surface of your emotions. There are surface emotions and deep emotions. Usually the surface emotion is what you are projecting - but is NOT the deep emotion you are feeling. You MUST deal with the deep emotion in order for the surface emotions to stay changed.

I never used to be able to STFU either. I always talked about R.

I wanted to her know that I cared and could change. I wanted to understand how she could treat me so badly, I wanted her acceptance.. I wanted to know she still loved me.

Why... because I had wrapped up all my self worth in HER. If she thought I was worthy - then I felt worthy.

Now I KNOW i'm worthy. I don't need to tell my wife I have changed or that I love her. I just do and in my heart, that works for me.

So now when I see her.. it's SO MUCH easier to STFU. It's easy to not talk about R or resist the urge to ask things to "get approval".

I've dealt with the Deep Emotion. Therefore my surface emotions changed as well.

So it's time to start looking deep IS. Start looking into what your r was really about for you. I know you are reading about codependency.. what rings true for you (if anything)?

If you don't dig deep, this tragedy will consume you. It will strip you of everything you have.

I saw my uncle last week. He is also going through a D and has been for almost 2 yrs.

He's gone back to alcohol. He's even popping pills. He's so angry and hurt. He projects his manhood by texting multiple women but complaining about them all.

Obviously him and I chose different paths. My heart breaks for him. That he let his pain, and his w's selfishness break him. So sad.

But here is the thing... HIS CURRENT STATE IS NOT HIS WIFE'S FAULT... IT IS HIS OWN!

He has CHOSEN to allow his w and his sitch destroy him... and I'll tell you what... his son is suffering because of it too.

Is that what you want for you S4? I think not........

... so get help. We are here for you but what are you doing about getting support from "Physical" bodies??

Divorce groups are working wonders for Rick and JB.

I understand the church thing. I hate the title "Christian". I hate that people have taken a loving father and used him to promote hatred....

.... I also feared trusting in something and being let down. After all, I trusted my w and she just ripped my heart out and squashed it with a semi- truck.

.... but I have walked where you are walking... and I didn't know what else to do. I knew that I wanted to fight, but also wanted to die. I knew I was failing at handling it on my own. I was not strong enough.

So I walked into Church and I put it out there. I no longer was to prideful to admit I was too weak. I no longer let the fear rule me.

I decided to take control of my life.

I am not saying to go back to church or join a D group (although I may be suggesting it ) but d@mnit IS - TAKE BACK YOUR LIFE.

YOU ARE IN CONTROL HERE. NOT YOUR WIFE!

You are too smart, caring, and loving to allow this to destroy you. You owe it to your son. He!! you owe it to yourself.

Your w is just a person. She is not God and does not determine your self worth. She does not determine your happiness. She only has the control over you that you allow her to have. SO STOP GIVING IT TO HER.

It's time to start fighting. It's time to put your needs back in the spotlight.

So let's start now - there's no better time. How about a small baby step. Tell me 5 things that you make you feel better about yourself. It can be easy..when I first started it was this

1. Wear make-up everyday
2. Dress feminine at least once a wk.
3. If I go out w/ friends. Buy one a drink
4. Save all my recyclables and give them to the dude that digs through my trash.
5. Post only positive things on Facebook.

See how that easy that was... so come on.. what's your 5 things?

Define them... do them!

You can do this!

(((( ))))

what she said^^^^

Honey you have to read it again. that's why I copied it...

[25yearsmlc]

25 - "So here is my question IS and others....to all LBSers
what is it that the WAS could have said BEFORE an affair or before leaving

that would have made enough of an impact to get you to change, the way you are now?

is there ANYTHING they could have said or done that would have gotten YOUR attention AND Changed You?

other than leaving you?

Advice for the advice giver, anyone?"

Here's what I would have reacted to. If my W had said we need to talk and then we went somewhere away from the kids and she said that she is not feeling loved, appreciated, taken for granted, etc. and she is THIS close to calling it quits with the marriage and that we need to do something or we may very likely reach the point of no return. That would have gotten my attention and woken me up to the gravity of the situation.

Individual one-off comments about her not being happy or whatever, especially in settings where there are distractions would NOT have gotten my attention.

But I would have most assuredly reacted to her telling me in the appropriate setting, how unhappy she was and was contemplating breaking us apart. If she had indicated that she wanted help for US instead of throwing in the towel, I would have understood and said yes, we do, lets get started NOW!

Of course, my W was also involved in an A with OM that I was not aware of, so whether or not this could have been broached in the first place is questionable in my mind. I think events have a way of getting ahead of you and then if there was an opportunity, it was likely missed before anyone realized that the opportunity to short circuit the spiral could have even been recognized.

So, if your friend is contemplating leaving her H, this is the advice I would give her. Have the conversation with her H in a private, uninterrupted setting and put everything on the table. But do this before the decision to leave has been reached. Not after.

I have given her such advice. But 2, the reality is that when they had this talk a year or so ago, he got defensive and they had a fight.

I shook my head then, and shake it now.

How can he not see this?

So although I believe YOU, I still wonder...seems a lot of people cannot hear this type of talk without attacking.

They feel attacked and threatened and that's their response.

Bummer.

But thanks!

[labug]

@ IS,
I saw your post of my wall. I am soo sorry you are hurting this badly. I know the holiday season doesn't help.

I don't know if you are purposefully sabotaging your chances. I agree with 25 - you are smart and seem to "get it" intellectually... so what's the deal?

IMHO - it's because you are still scratching the surface of your emotions. There are surface emotions and deep emotions. Usually the surface emotion is what you are projecting - but is NOT the deep emotion you are feeling. You MUST deal with the deep emotion in order for the surface emotions to stay changed.

I never used to be able to STFU either. I always talked about R.

I wanted to her know that I cared and could change. I wanted to understand how she could treat me so badly, I wanted her acceptance.. I wanted to know she still loved me.

Why... because I had wrapped up all my self worth in HER. If she thought I was worthy - then I felt worthy.

Now I KNOW i'm worthy. I don't need to tell my wife I have changed or that I love her. I just do and in my heart, that works for me.

So now when I see her.. it's SO MUCH easier to STFU. It's easy to not talk about R or resist the urge to ask things to "get approval".

I've dealt with the Deep Emotion. Therefore my surface emotions changed as well.

So it's time to start looking deep IS. Start looking into what your r was really about for you. I know you are reading about codependency.. what rings true for you (if anything)?

If you don't dig deep, this tragedy will consume you. It will strip you of everything you have.

I saw my uncle last week. He is also going through a D and has been for almost 2 yrs.

He's gone back to alcohol. He's even popping pills. He's so angry and hurt. He projects his manhood by texting multiple women but complaining about them all.

Obviously him and I chose different paths. My heart breaks for him. That he let his pain, and his w's selfishness break him. So sad.

But here is the thing... HIS CURRENT STATE IS NOT HIS WIFE'S FAULT... IT IS HIS OWN!

He has CHOSEN to allow his w and his sitch destroy him... and I'll tell you what... his son is suffering because of it too.

Is that what you want for you S4? I think not........

... so get help. We are here for you but what are you doing about getting support from "Physical" bodies??

Divorce groups are working wonders for Rick and JB.

I understand the church thing. I hate the title "Christian". I hate that people have taken a loving father and used him to promote hatred....

.... I also feared trusting in something and being let down. After all, I trusted my w and she just ripped my heart out and squashed it with a semi- truck.

.... but I have walked where you are walking... and I didn't know what else to do. I knew that I wanted to fight, but also wanted to die. I knew I was failing at handling it on my own. I was not strong enough.

So I walked into Church and I put it out there. I no longer was to prideful to admit I was too weak. I no longer let the fear rule me.

I decided to take control of my life.

I am not saying to go back to church or join a D group (although I may be suggesting it ) but d@mnit IS - TAKE BACK YOUR LIFE.

YOU ARE IN CONTROL HERE. NOT YOUR WIFE!

You are too smart, caring, and loving to allow this to destroy you. You owe it to your son. He!! you owe it to yourself.

Your w is just a person. She is not God and does not determine your self worth. She does not determine your happiness. She only has the control over you that you allow her to have. SO STOP GIVING IT TO HER.

It's time to start fighting. It's time to put your needs back in the spotlight.

So let's start now - there's no better time. How about a small baby step. Tell me 5 things that you make you feel better about yourself. It can be easy..when I first started it was this

1. Wear make-up everyday
2. Dress feminine at least once a wk.
3. If I go out w/ friends. Buy one a drink
4. Save all my recyclables and give them to the dude that digs through my trash.
5. Post only positive things on Facebook.

See how that easy that was... so come on.. what's your 5 things?

Define them... do them!

You can do this!

(((( ))))

Great post, I think it has sticky status!

[In_Shock]

val, i've read your post several times. You are such an emotionally connected person --- damn, that must be what W has said I'm missing....!!! (remember, that was a big complaint that I'm always in my head, that I'm not emotionally connected....) I've tried SOOOO effin' hard to make sense of the whole emotional realm --- and I've grown, yes, hard growth but I've grown. YOU - Val- my friend are a guru for this stuff....thanks for taking the time to give me the insight.

Yes, sometimes I really do think I'm sabotaging myself -- perhaps subconsciously --- But I'm recognizing it--- and dammit that's more than I did before, so that's progress. Maybe somewhere inside --- deep--- i realize this R isn't right for me? Maybe I KNOW that internally but I'm hanging on for--- what??? Perhaps the idea of the R how it 'should' be? I'm just thinking now... kind of a Virginia Woolf stream of consciousness thing going for me...

And I'm continuing to read about codependence. I think it fits. I think I'm afraid to be alone. I think I don't feel WHOLE when I'm alone. I know from the get go that my parents weren't ever emotionally 'there' for me -- i don't think they ever *much like i was* even understood the concept. He@@, they were from another generation that had REAL problems like oh, WWII and the Depression. Emotional connection--- to them I'm sure it sounded like so much namby pamby nonsense. W tells me she feels that I was (emotionally) raised by wolves. OK, I get it. I'm in my freakin' head. But I've gotten better and that's all anyone can ask -- right? If I didn't really want to connect/to try, I would have just ignored her. But when she mentioned emotional connectivity --- well, perhaps I did it the wrong way by reading books, looking up websites, etc... I wanted to change so W would feel the emotional connection that I (wrongly) thought we already had. My IC once told me it was a loving thing to try to change for someone, but not to get LOST in the other person's needs/demands. Now I 'get' what he meant.

I know that i DO definitely look to the external world for my self worth. Hence the many higher degrees I have, my job (I get to talk all day from a 'pedestal' to students who for the most part adore me LOL), and my constant need for approval from W. I feel in control in my classroom, at work, in academia. In my personal life, I feel as if I've become a quivering, quaking, mass of protoplasm or something!!

[sunshine76]

Hey IS it's good to see you back. Maya Angelou says, "when you know better you do better." It sounds like you now know better and are making great strides in doing better.

Maybe I KNOW that internally but I'm hanging on for--- what??? Perhaps the idea of the R how it 'should' be?

I understand what you are saying. When I was growing up I never fantasized about getting married or having a wedding, but the one thing that I knew without a doubt that I wanted was to grow old with someone that I loved. It never even occured to me that it may not happen. Now we have to go back and re-evalutate what a 'relationship' truly means to us and I am pretty sure it doesn't look like our current relationships.

My IC once told me it was a loving thing to try to change for someone, but not to get LOST in the other person's needs/demands. Now I 'get' what he meant.

When the student is ready the teacher will appear

It sounds like you are really beginning to dig deep and analyzing your current situation.

Hang in there I think you are about to turn a corner and begin discovering that you are stronger than you ever realized.

[In_Shock]

Val said:
IMHO - it's because you are still scratching the surface of your emotions. There are surface emotions and deep emotions. Usually the surface emotion is what you are projecting - but is NOT the deep emotion you are feeling. You MUST deal with the deep emotion in order for the surface emotions to stay changed.

You see, this is the kind of thing I'm really working on. I understand what you mean intellectually, but the disconnect comes with actually knowing how to feel the deep emotions. How do you dig down and actually get to those? I meditate, reflect, think a lot about my feelings -- but how to actually FEEL the deep ones? I'm still puzzling over that I guess due to my emotionally feral upbringing.(*if anyone is a Big Bang Theory fan and remembers Leonard's mom, that reminds me of my family. very highly educated, knowledgable about darn near anything -- but NO EMOTIONS ALLOWED)
I never used to be able to STFU either. I always talked about R.

That's where i've been stuck repeatedly. Why? Well,look at your next remark:
I wanted to her know that I cared and could change. I wanted to understand how she could treat me so badly, I wanted her acceptance.. I wanted to know she still loved me.

Why... because I had wrapped up all my self worth in HER. If she thought I was worthy - then I felt worthy.

YES YES AND YES. I have figured out (the hard way) that I have needed someone to make me feel ok --worthy--- secure---loved--- fill in your own needy adjective....WTF? I didn't notice this all these years until we had a problem and she was pulling away?? WOW I really had the blinders on.

Now I KNOW i'm worthy. I don't need to tell my wife I have changed or that I love her. I just do and in my heart, that works for me.

Oh Val ---I understand but HOW to get to where I KNOW I'm worthy???? That is my journey, and I'm desperately trying to dig deep enough to get there.

So now when I see her.. it's SO MUCH easier to STFU. It's easy to not talk about R or resist the urge to ask things to "get approval".

I've dealt with the Deep Emotion. Therefore my surface emotions changed as well.

So it's time to start looking deep IS. Start looking into what your r was really about for you. I know you are reading about codependency.. what rings true for you (if anything)?

Here is a quote I found about CODEPENDENCY that totally rings true to me: “Codependency, by definition, means making the relationship more important to you than you are to yourself. It’s kind of a weird phrase, and it doesn’t sound like it means a one-sided relationship. But that’s what it is. It means you’re trying to make the relationship work with someone else who’s not,”

Also I know the whole idea of putting up with anything just to keep the R going in some form screams codependency. I think that putting up with W's flaunting OW in my face daily is definitely codependent behavior and apparently I have no boundaries. Boundaries? In my family my mom read my diary... no one EVER knocked on your bedroom door --- I realized I grew up with not only no emotional boundaries but not even any physical ones. Something I MUST work on defining if I'm going to grow. (why does growth have to hurt?? I guess there's a reason they call them growing pains)

If you don't dig deep, this tragedy will consume you. It will strip you of everything you have.

I saw my uncle last week. He is also going through a D and has been for almost 2 yrs.

He's gone back to alcohol. He's even popping pills. He's so angry and hurt. He projects his manhood by texting multiple women but complaining about them all.

Obviously him and I chose different paths. My heart breaks for him. That he let his pain, and his w's selfishness break him. So sad.

But here is the thing... HIS CURRENT STATE IS NOT HIS WIFE'S FAULT... IT IS HIS OWN!

He has CHOSEN to allow his w and his sitch destroy him... and I'll tell you what... his son is suffering because of it too.

Is that what you want for you S4? I think not........

You are right. Like I've said, I can't imagine hurting the little guy more than this whole mess is already hurting him. I want to be there for him--- in my darkest moments he keeps me from doing anything insane. Another poster said of suicide -- it's another form of abandonment. That totally echoes my feelings -- and I wouldn't do that to my precious little dude. I want to be strong for him, but sometimes I'm just not strong. But I keep putting one foot in front of the other.......etc....

... so get help. We are here for you but what are you doing about getting support from "Physical" bodies??

Divorce groups are working wonders for Rick and JB.

If I were still in Cali or a bigger metro area I would have better luck with the support groups. Where i live, well, being gay makes one a sort of pariah -- For example, the first L i consulted -- 'yes, you have a case, you can go for joint custody based on case.....but I can't help you because I know W." SECOND L -- oh no, you have no claim on S-- you're just like a helpful neighbor. I believe in my heart after reflecting that second L was NOT into this case due to the same sex issue--- i could almost see it in her eyes and demeanor.

This was kinda of confirmed tonight when I was at my bro's house. He's a L -- yes, i know, why hadn't I consulted him? ....it's a LONG story --- lots of family issues -- but he's non practicing and a very successful businessman who owns a chain of businesses many of you would immediately recognize if I named it...(I can only dream of having his money) ANYWAY -- he and I have made amends over the years from old hurts and tonight I went down to his home for xmas with his family. He was VERY interested in the sitch and looked up the case, read the case from our state, and gave me his opinion. He believes the second L didn't even bother to read the whole thing --- likely due to a bias-- he said it seems pretty clear that I do indeed have legal standing....(25, wanna weigh in? LOL) SOOOOOOO where i was going with this is that in my region, finding ANY support for my sitch --- pretty hard. I miss Cali.....:) My niece lives in SF and I'm definitely going to visit here this spring. I loved SF -- sigh.

On the other hand, Val, I've opened myself up this past semester and started a few friendships. A definite 180 for me--- i have always been very very shy, and I've pushed myself out of my comfort zone and am building some friendships I would never have sought out if W and I were still status quo. A couple of these new friends have been there through some of my rough patches, and i think they are keepers LOL.


I understand the church thing. I hate the title "Christian". I hate that people have taken a loving father and used him to promote hatred....
ABSOLUTELY


.... I also feared trusting in something and being let down. After all, I trusted my w and she just ripped my heart out and squashed it with a semi- truck.

FOR REAL. TRUST? Right now, never again.

.... but I have walked where you are walking... and I didn't know what else to do. I knew that I wanted to fight, but also wanted to die. I knew I was failing at handling it on my own. I was not strong enough.

So I walked into Church and I put it out there. I no longer was to prideful to admit I was too weak. I no longer let the fear rule me.

I decided to take control of my life.

I am not saying to go back to church or join a D group (although I may be suggesting it ) but d@mnit IS - TAKE BACK YOUR LIFE.

I've been considering taking my agnostic self into church if only for the social aspect....who knows where it might lead?? If there was a Unitarian Universalist Church close to me I'd be there yesterday, for real. THEY are accepting of all.

YOU ARE IN CONTROL HERE. NOT YOUR WIFE!

You are too smart, caring, and loving to allow this to destroy you. You owe it to your son. He!! you owe it to yourself.

Your w is just a person. She is not God and does not determine your self worth. She does not determine your happiness. She only has the control over you that you allow her to have. SO STOP GIVING IT TO HER.

It's time to start fighting. It's time to put your needs back in the spotlight.

Got it. Great 2X4 without being a 2X4. I understand that I'm giving her the control. I think my main struggle is how to stop what you have called 'stinking thinking' I see visions of W and OW and try really hard to push them out of my head.....

So let's start now - there's no better time. How about a small baby step. Tell me 5 things that you make you feel better about yourself. It can be easy..when I first started it was this

1. Wear make-up everyday
2. Dress feminine at least once a wk.
3. If I go out w/ friends. Buy one a drink
4. Save all my recyclables and give them to the dude that digs through my trash.
5. Post only positive things on Facebook.

See how that easy that was... so come on.. what's your 5 things?

Define them... do them!

You can do this!

(((( ))))

[/quote]



OK my 5 things??? Some of these I've already been doing
1. dress nice, fix my hair, and wear makeup, even on weekends.
2. go back to a regular exercise routine, even if it's only walking around the neighborhood
3. stay in closer contact with my family, especially nieces and nephews(due to the fact that my bros are much older than me, nieces and nephews are actually closer to my age)
4. Go out a couple of times a month with any one of my new friends
5. volunteer at a local soup kitchen/homeless shelter when time permits