WAW told me she idoesn't want to be married.

[witz10]

First night of chanukah without my w. I have my kids but still a hard night. Not really looking fwd this years holidays but i will suck it up and have as much fun with them that i can.

[25yearsmlc]

First night of chanukah without my w. I have my kids but still a hard night. Not really looking fwd this years holidays but i will suck it up and have as much fun with them that i can.

I hope you do have fun with them Witz...really..for you and THEM!

I felt similar to Adinva btw. I pick up a lot of resentment from you.
Seems there is a lot of score keeping and measuring going on from you, and she has had to ask you for help in things that most "partners" would already be doing. I guess my take on it was that you were sort of clueless and counting what you did, and taking for granted what She does/gives on a daily basis.

It's not a big 2 x 4 but I cannot help but feel you are tallying acts of service instead of just lovingly giving...

I'm also very unclear as to what your 180s are.

What changes do you think your w has noticed, if any, in You?

You posted first in October, I believe (which is why I thought your sitch was only 2 months)

originally about how your w announced she wanted out.

It sounded as if you didn't put much effort into the actual r between you and your w. (TV instead of joining her in bed, not going to counselling after SHE asked to...etc) Otherwise you were vague about her complaints and yet you were seeing a therapist. This confuses me.

Surely you must know some of your issues and it's not all a mystery, right?

Anyhow, in that original post, after the comment about how you sort of ignored her as a woman, then you said you loved her "more than anything and she knows it."

um, really?

To me, it's clear she did Not feel loved by you.

I'm actually NOT trying to hit you with a 2 x 4 - but let's say I'm onto something here, okay?

For a minute, assume that the core problem in your marriage was you taking her for granted as a mate.

So, what's new Now? How have YOU outwardly changed towards her?

How would she come to believe that marriage to you now, could be better or different?

If you cannot answer that^^^ with Some specifics, that's you being stuck.

As for dating OWs, I know it's hard to assess other's sitches.

And I don't know much about the OM in her life. You seemed to sort of skim over it and suddenly I was reading about an OM and said, "what OM??"
I missed something big there.

So I don't know what to say about that. But it does not change my basic question.


What's new in your r? How are you different around her? The 180s?

And how are your GAL activities?

Those are what YOU control...and though I'm not a fan of dating while supposedly working on the m,

being a bit mysterious around your w, would not hurt!

Get some new cologne and clothes and a haircut. Go out and be vague about your "errands" or "seeing some friends"... you don't have to lie, to be mysterious.

Oh, as for God...well, metaphysically speaking I found the whole nightmare MLC experience, to have at least one BIG upside

- me getting in touch with my God, or higher power or the universe or whatever you want to call it/him.

He helps. My faith in "something caring about me", is less creed specific, but a lot stronger in reality, than before.

So Keep talking to Him b/c He is listening...and be open to the changes He might bring about in You...

((( )))

[Grmpy_Mnky]

Total newbie here. Always impressed by 25's sagely advice.

[witz10]

Thank you 25 I really do need people to be blunt on here. I am lost I am not really sure what to do and now I am starting to question my therapist.

We had a good first night of hanukah kids liked there toys and I already have had to exchange two toys for broken parts. Fun part of the holidays.

[I felt similar to Adinva btw. I pick up a lot of resentment from you.] I guess I resent that from the beginning she has lied to me. Basically since March some time when I caught this guys arm around my W's a$$. She said she didn't notice and now I was told by my neighbor that she gave this guy a peck on the lips one night and supposedly told me this. She never told me. If she had I would have had a problem with it. She asked me to go to counseling and I went with an open heart and open mind to hear the problems. We went the first week she told me she was not happy and had issues with me working for my family. Even then I was trying to get out of the family business and make changes. I was paying more attention to her when I was home. Another problem I still worked on weekends when we should have been on dates. Instead she would be next door with the guys. The other problem was we don't argue I let things go and I didn't speak up when I should. That has stopped. When she asked me for the last time to separate she also said we would restart slow by dating. Well 8 months and only 1 date and that was down the shore to talk about therapy and us after we got back from vacation. Before finding MWD's book I was trying to talk with her as much as possible and I pursued, was needy and pathetic. I did everything your not supposed to do. She went to the other man I think in August or September, thats when I started finding his beer in my fridge.

[Seems there is a lot of score keeping and measuring going on from you, and she has had to ask you for help in things that most "partners" would already be doing.] She refuses to ask me for help these days. I have to see if she needs help or I just do it on my own. In the past I always did chores around our home never had to ask. When it came to kids, meals, laundry, trash I was a good husband. We just lost our communication and romance. Again because she worked 2 jobs and so did I. Mine were mostly weekend so we would have up till 5 or 6 at night to do whatever together. Whether shopping or working out. Believe me I miss all this.

[It's not a big 2 x 4 but I cannot help but feel you are tallying acts of service instead of just lovingly giving...]I am doing everything possible to be more loving to her but she doesn't want any of it. I have brought flowers when I know she has had a bad day at work. I always ask her how she is doing, open doors when we are out, try to make her as comfortable as possible. I pick things up when I know she needs them, if I am running to the store me for I will text and ask her if she needs anything.

[I'm also very unclear as to what your 180s are.]
My 180's now are not pursuing her
GAL, which I go out with friends every weekend I don't have my kids
being more patient
When I was up at the condo, before I took kids twice a week, I was leaving as she was coming in. Not sticking around for chit chat. Still do that if we have a family outing. Did that last weekend when we got home from train ride at 930. I left and went to a xmas party
Losing weight for me and getting in shape. Ran first 5k last week with family
Watching about an hour of tv at night if that. As to where I used to watch 2-3 hours a night and be up till 1am
I bought a bunch of new clothes for me and I am dressing nicer.
The biggest 180 would be the new job whenever that happens. She does not believe I am looking and trying to get out.
I try to talk with her and make little jokes but she doesn't want any of it. Unless its about kids or finances. So I stopped reaching out and let her make first contact.
Of course I get at least 1 email a day around 10am. Whether it is important or not.
Like yesterday she emailed just to tell me she was mailing pics to my aunt. Which I already new since I was the one to buy the picture envelopes she asked me to pick up the day before.
Are these good 180's if not I would gladly take suggestions. Like I said please I look at this BB as a life coach in ways. I am still learning.

[What changes do you think your w has noticed, if any, in You?]
I know she has noticed the clothes and me getting fit she made a comment to my neighbor talking about how I am looking these days.

[You posted first in October, I believe (which is why I thought your sitch was only 2 months)]Nope found her book in October wish I found it months ago.

originally about how your w announced she wanted out.

[It sounded as if you didn't put much effort into the actual r between you and your w. (TV instead of joining her in bed, not going to counselling after SHE asked to...etc) Otherwise you were vague about her complaints and yet you were seeing a therapist. This confuses me.] I would work my families office during the day, come home eat and kiss my w and kids goodbye and go to retail job at night. So only see her in the morning and dinner for a half hour. When I would get home I was not tired from being at work and would my alone time. Instead I should have been reading in bed next to her. Or I read somewhere I should have laid in bed with her for 15-20 minutes till she fell asleep then go sit.
I needed to learn to be more aggressive and less passive. I just followed whatever my W said we were doing for that day. If she asked me to do something like paint the bathroom I would let it go for months. We lost the romance and passion and that was also why we went to a therapist to start talking again. We became roommates. I learned I was Depressed.

Its funny I am reading DR and highlighting the hell out of it. Everything MWD is writing about depression or MLC I can see in myself over the last 2-3 years. Not all the signs for depression but I could recognize how I was acting same with MLC.

Surely you must know some of your issues and it's not all a mystery, right? see above

[Anyhow, in that original post, after the comment about how you sort of ignored her as a woman, then you said you loved her "more than anything and she knows it."

um, really?] Yea she knows I love her and want her back. I have put it in writing over the summer and I have told her.

[To me, it's clear she did Not feel loved by you.]
Yea she felt neglected and ignored. She asked me for more passion and romance and I did not listen I had no idea what to do. Now I have ideas at the ying yang.

I'm actually NOT trying to hit you with a 2 x 4 - but let's say I'm onto something here, okay?[b] HIT AWAY I give you permission to drop an anvil on my head ala wile e coyote

For a minute, assume that the core problem in your marriage was you taking her for granted as a mate.

[So, what's new Now? How have YOU outwardly changed towards her?] I try to help and talk with her as much as possible. I try to do as much as possible IF she will let me. She wants to do things for herself at the moment.

[How would she come to believe that marriage to you now, could be better or different?] This I really don't know. I would sit her down and tell her that we will talk every night about our days, future or whatever. I would be more attentive to her more. Pay attention more to her. I always complimented her. Call each other at work for a quick catch me up. Cook more, I used to make dinner every night when we lived in CA but I also worked from home. Challenge her more mentally whether game or conversation

[If you cannot answer that^^^ with Some specifics, that's you being stuck.] Believe me I am not stuck on this.

[As for dating OWs, I know it's hard to assess other's sitches.] I am not dating anyone and have not even gone out.

[And I don't know much about the OM in her life. You seemed to sort of skim over it and suddenly I was reading about an OM and said, "what OM??"
I missed something big there.] This is one of the guys who she was drinking with when I was not home on weekends. He would listen to her and was there to talk with. He pursued her and now has her even though they don't go anywhere but her place and his.


[What's new in your r? How are you different around her? The 180s?] I am more up front and just answer questions if she asks. I do feel like I walk on eggshells. I try to help when she allows me to. I offer to help her out. I try to make sure she is ok.

And how are your GAL activities? Went to a xmas party last week, try to make plans everyweek to go out with friends, go to the gym, looking into softball in the spring, tried to get my drumset out of storage but my sons train tracks took that space over. Looking to do more 5ks as well.

[being a bit mysterious around your w, would not hurt!] I don't tell her what I do. As for haircut not much up top clipped down all the way.

[So Keep talking to Him b/c He is listening...and be open to the changes He might bring about in You...] I try every night before bed. Like I said things happen for a reason.

((( )))
[/quote]back at you thank you again!!!!

[witz10]

25 I am trying not to be or sound resentful. I guess like I said in my previous post she told me we would start slow. On my sons bday she told me there was no us. Just hard to be lied too like that.

This past week when she would tell me she was overwhelmed it just breaks me inside cause I know if I paid attention or did things in the past that this would not be like this and I would be with my family. Everyday this week I have asked her how she was doing and if there was anyway for me to help. She gave me teachers presents and family presents from my son. Took care of them. But she said she has to do it all herself. We used to be a good team.
The resent is her seeing someone else and not giving me the chance to prove myself to her.

[witz10]

I am going up for xmas morning for presents and breakfast, which I will help out with if she lets me. I used to let her sleep in on Saturdays and I would get up with kids feed them and get them all set as well as make something for breakfast. Sundays would be my day and she would do the same.

I have said it before I know it will be hard work for us if we reconcile, BUT I am used to getting my hands dirty and I am a forgiving man. How I was raised. People ask where have all the gentlemen gone. Here is one of them, how I was raised by my parents. I know with couples therapy for us and private on our own as well as all of you I know I will be ok whatever the outcome has for my future.
I will even see if she wants to do some of these course I read about once or twice a year. Just to make sure everything is ok and we learn and grow from this.

[25yearsmlc]

I'm going to take a stab at this but could be wrong, so you know...

I am going up for xmas morning for presents and breakfast, which I will help out with if she lets me.

stop with the "if she lets me". Just do it. Don't ask

and don't act like you expect to be rewarded. This sounds like a parental function she should not have to do ALL of by herself anyhow...imo


I used to let her sleep in on Saturdays and I would get up with kids feed them and get them all set as well as make something for breakfast. Sundays would be my day and she would do the same.

I have said it before I know it will be hard work for us if we reconcile, BUT I am used to getting my hands dirty and I am a forgiving man. How I was raised. People ask where have all the gentlemen gone. Here is one of them, how I was raised by my parents. I know with couples therapy for us and private on our own as well as all of you I know I will be ok whatever the outcome has for my future.

IF your w believes you will hold the affair (I'll assume it's an affair for the sake of discussion b/c I don't want to get bogged down in whether it's an EA or a PA or whatever...)

so if she believes you will hold it over her head like the Sword of Damacles

or throw it in her face every time you feel insecure or angry,

she won't come back. This is one reason it's SO important you Not appear resentful

I believe Many more WASs would come home if they thought they would be forgiven.

Fair or not, it's the LBSers job to show that they, (The LBSer) can and will get past it. (And speaking of fair, we KNOW this does not feel fair. I say 2 things to that. First, to HER

the marriage was unfair for a LONG time...longer than YOU realize and

2nd, more importantly, if you want to see the really "UNfair" - look at Africa...(for perspective) so

Lose the anger, at least in front of her. I know that is hard. Believe me...but it does help YOU and your family.

My anger consumed ME and when I realized the truth of that, it helped me to start letting go of it.

Besides, if you don't let it go, YOU will never be really happy again, no matter what SHE does...


I will even see if she wants to do some of these course I read about once or twice a year. Just to make sure everything is ok and we learn and grow from this.

that is all future talk and still depends on HER....

what are YOU DOING NOW to show change in you?

Not promises about later on IF she comes back...your words mean little to her now.

For NOW -here are some ideas...

YOU take a class (& start working LESS ASAP) and or join a club,

Do something that gets you meeting more people, with or without her.

Your 180s are mostly verbal and they simply are you "asking" and not doing.

Plus, the GAL are, no offense, but insufficient. Here are some of the things I did that I

had mostly always wanted to do - but some were just to push my comfort zone outward...

I took flying lessons, and went skydiving. THAT makes an impression...

I took a pottery class, and volunteered at the women's shelter (Then got on the board of directors, and it helped my job search/resume)

joined a writer's club (something I wrote got entered into a play festival and won...go figure)

edited a book on my free time, for money. This lead to meeting a bunch of new interesting people

I auditioned for plays and got roles in them. Met cool actors.

I did stand up comedy (Oh yeah, I'm damn funny)--now write jokes for money as an avocation

I learned to hunt and fish, which h loved to do. Now I can do it on my own OR with him. He appreciates it.

Worked out like a maniac, and got in great shape

saw a shrink and got on some meds for several months...thank GOD!

found a support group...

I do think there's more but you get the idea? Most of these things cost little or were free...

so branch out some more...you can do this. And you will NOT regret it.

((( )))

[25yearsmlc]

25 I am trying not to be or sound resentful. I guess like I said in my previous post she told me we would start slow. On my sons bday she told me there was no us. Just hard to be lied too like that.


remember the adage here, "believe nothing they SAY and only half of what they DO"....and that goes for her believing in you. If all you are doing is SAYING things would be better, that is not enough to get her back, imo...

let me ask you, has it been working thus far? If not, try something different. DB 101...

This past week when she would tell me she was overwhelmed it just breaks me inside cause I know if I paid attention or did things in the past that this would not be like this and I would be with my family. Everyday this week I have asked her how she was doing and if there was anyway for me to help.

more "asking"...Man, this just does Not impress her...(or me). Don't wait for her to accept your offer or to invite you. Just DO things to help and expect nothing in return.

No expectations...or they'll show and it'll come off as pursuit-which is what it would be. Instead DO things b/c you are NOW a NEW man...not b/c you expect her to come back but because you want to DO these things...

make sense?

She gave me teachers presents and family presents from my son. Took care of them. But she said she has to do it all herself. We used to be a good team.

be a good partner without her asking you for help.


The resent is her seeing someone else and not giving me the chance to prove myself to her.

you have been given the chance

but all you have done is ASK her IF you can do something that she is not in the mood to ask of, or accept from you

AND you make promises about the future.

She's heard those before.

She needs to SEE YOU BEING DIFFERENT, NOT TALKING ABOUT IT...

hope this helps.

I know you are sincere but something's not clicking yet.

(((( )))

[witz10]

This is one of the parts i hate the most of being separated. It is 50 degrees today and my w gave my daughter a very thin jacket. Tomorrow it is 40 in the morning i don't have the correct jacket for her. Also my s school is going on a field trip to a park in the morning and we might have rain all night. I don't have a change of shoes for him. Now i have to go to the store tonight to pick up an extra pair of shoes. Gotta get uaed to this these days. I just want my w to look one day in advance after i have the kids to make sure i have what i need for them.

[25yearsmlc]

let her know in an upbeat way that you are getting him some shoes for the weather coming...

marvel at how fast they grow. No blame...no guilting...if anything it'll backfire.

Just let her know he does not need a 3rd pair for Xmas since you are getting him some for 2moro...

And btw, YOU can discuss what they need in advance too. This isn't just HER job.

I mean, Couldn't she argue that YOU didn't tell her something or that YOU should have thought of this?

I'm just asking b/c you seem to think this exclusively reflects badly on Her...

and that's Not true and it's Not helping either of you or the sitch.

Okay?