What else could I have done?

[antlers]

25 said...Notwithstanding the comment I made about holding on for long being better than quitting too early,

do NOT confuse that with justification for score keeping, which

You have done too much. And it holds YOU back, and does nothing to her.
(like lighting yourself on fire to get smoke in her eyes...)

It does NOT promote "justice."

You honestly believe that you changed anyone's mind about the marriage by telling them the ex wife, their d had an affair?

Let me assure you ---> 90% of them will say YOU pushed her into the arms of the OM by the way you acted. Heck even you think there's some truth there.

It does not help anyone, least of all YOU, to bring that up again. It makes you look punitive, and vindictive and still holding on and keeping score.

All you have to do, IF anything is say "XW knows the real reasons behind our divorce. She knows choices WE BOTH MADE, ended our m.

I owned my mistakes and am a better man for it. I am not aware that xw has owned anything. Ask her if you like...." and leave it at that.

Your children will someday ask you questions and when they are ready, then you tell them..IF EVER.

My uncle left my wonderful aunt decades ago, for OW. He married OW after her own h killed himself. Uncle felt guilty that OW's kids were now fatherless so he left his own bio kids to marry OW and raise hers as his own....fair? Hell no.

My aunt never said a bad word about her ex b/c she placed her love for her children over her anger at her ex h. (You have not done this. You will be placing your anger, under the guise of "honesty/fairness" above their welfare if you choose to share that with them about their mother.

A few years ago my cousin asked her mother a question about the divorce and aunt finally said "your father wanted to be free to marry OW." Also, when OW (now his wife of decades) mentioned the anniversary, there was an overlap of years when aunt was still married to the uncle. So my cousin figured it all out.

She was hurt by her father's cowardly refusal to ever explain.

But she was so touched by her mother's (my aunt) protection of her relationship with her father. She admires her mom that much more now.

She still loves her dad, which is healthy for her. But she "gets it" now. Don't rush your kids into "reality" too soon. You'd be surprised at how well your xw will justify the affairs and you may come out looking a whole lot worse than you believe you deserve to be.

It's one thing to stand up for yourself, it's another to throw rocks.

SIDENOTE--my aunt is so much happier in her marriage now, than she ever could have been with a philandering h. In fact, her ex h still cheats on his "new" wife...

It wasn't my intention to change anyone's mind. I kept the truth to myself for a long time, while she continued to bash me to our kids and her family and anybody else who'd listen. And I beat myself up worse than she was beating me up. I don't feel like I was keeping score. After I realized, finally, that it truly was 'over', it became important to me for them to know the whole truth, instead of just what they were being told by her. I'll take responsibility for what I've done as I have from the beginning of this awful ordeal, but I am not responsible for her cheating and lying regardless of what they think! I own what I did...but I won't own that. She did that all on her own. I have no intention of bringing it up again. Punitive and vindictive? You just described her to a 'T' since she left.
"XW knows the real reasons behind our divorce. She knows choices WE BOTH MADE, ended our marriage. I owned my mistakes and am a better man for it. I am not aware that XW has owned anything. Ask her if you like...".
I will remember this...thank you for it.
I feel bad enough for screwing up as badly as I did during the marriage. Thinking about the cheating and lying that she did hurts pretty damn bad too.

[antlers]

It is time to let go. Forgive her for her wrongs just as you expected her to forgive you, yours. And accept that she has moved on.

I want to. I'm working on it. My youngest daughter recently told me that her mom "brainwashed" her and my son for over a year and a half against me after she left...she poisoned my kids against me for over a year and a half! And they are messed up because of that. That's not easy to forgive...do you agree?

And forgiving her for her cheating and lying, especially while I was working to make things better for all of us...that's not easy to forgive. Do you agree?

Do you think it's necessary to forgive her these things in order for me to let go and move on? She hasn't forgiven me anything, and she's let go and moved on according to her and her mother!

I really want to do whatever it takes...I just don't want to feel like this anymore.

[JT71]

Antlers, I haven't been here in a long time. My D was final in 2007. I asked the same questions you asked because everyone kept telling me I had to forgive him, the problem was, I was more hurt than angry. Forgiveness didn't seem to be the answer.

What I learned is that the burdens you carry with you: pain, hurt, guilt, anger, sadness, ...whatever, all need time. The only way through is through. However, the more you indulge in what my friends call "mental masturbation", the more worked up you will get and the fresher the wound will feel. Just like a scar needs time to fade, so do your wounds.

When you are ready to move on, you will. Of course her mother will say she has moved on. Her mother wants her daughter to be happy and sees what she wants to see. The first guy I dated after the D had everyone happy that I had "moved on". Had I? No, but atleast I was distracting myself.

It was 6 years this Nov since he dropped the bomb. I am happily dating a wonderful man now but I will tell you that Nov and Dec still have some very hard days for me. In fact, a close friend's wife just dropped the bomb on him this past week and it felt like I had gotten the sucker punch. It brought it all rushing back to me. The good news is, it has also faded quickly. I am upset for my friend but I can step back and help him without hurting.

Time is your friend. Ignore what everyone else says about her. Appearances mean nothing.

Goodluck

[Rick1963]

Antlers hang in there. I have faith that things will get better. Your children will come around and see the good father that you have become. It is a matter of time. I remember the time my dad introduced me and my bro to his GF. I was 17. I was pissed but my bro thought the world of my dad and we both kept it a secret from mom. I loved my dad but had my issues about him. He died a few months ago so I have hard time disrespecting him. The bottom line is that kids will make up their own stories about their parents and we have no say. Have a peaceful one

[Gypsy]

Hey ant..

It's your hurt, it's your journey and there are hurdles... some just the course of nature, the other sometimes placed by you (and me in my case).

In the same way your kids are beginning to understand that actions speak louder than words so will your ex's parents. And she will always be their daughter, the baby the loved from day one. It's a blessing if you're able to keep your extended family. And the way to do it (or at least what I did) is respecting the bond between parents and their child, the ex spouse's siblings and relatives. Everyone is hurt, not just you and has to find their own way. Pointing fingers, wanting to explain, venting about all the wrongs pushes folks who care for each of you away.

I ran into a couple I adored. The husband had worked closely with my ex and had retired to Florida. The couple and I went to lunch, had a wonderful time until they brought up Bill. My mouth started going... his legal fees depleted everything, he didn't see the kids at all, didn't give a cent to our son for college. I went on and on.. his affair during our marriage.. yadda yadda. When I tried to get in touch with them I never got a call back. And I keep trying for months. After a year I found out why.. from my ex. That our friend had been so horrified, that he went and spoke to the ex who told his own story. And my friend had to choose. Whether he let go of both of us, or just me, that friendship is gone.. and it makes me sad.

But I lost that connection because of my own anger, my feeling of betrayal.. which I spewed nonstop. And it was a very hard lesson that took quite a while to learn.

It hurts. It stinks. But.. as always.. ACTIONS speak louder than WORDS. Healthy boundaries, my friend. Oh yes... and the ex has never taken any accountability over the break up of the marriage, the mangling of the divorce.. and it's a blessing in disguise. There is no way that 100 percent of the finger pointing and blame is caused by one person. And you do take accountability for your actions. The secret is to no expect the same from someone who left emotionally and physically years ago.

And that is not justifying their actions. Just accepting that their baggage is no longer yours to own.

*hugs*

[antlers]

The problem was, I was more hurt than angry.

Ignore what everyone else says about her.
Appearances mean nothing.

I've been way more hurt too, throughout all of this. She was able to use her anger and hatred as energy, a tool, to help her leave and create another life gor herself. It's kinda hard...impossible...to use hurt as energy, a tool, to do what I needed to do.

I will keep the other two things in mind. Thank you.

[SunFunOne]

"He who angers you, controls you"...

I first saw those words on a billboard and they really hit home for me.

I took a communication course when my kids were small. I learned that the best communication takes place when you talk about your own feelings and perceptions. "I" statements. Not "She" statements. You are constantly bringing up what She did. People here and in your life are much more open to "I" statments. "I feel hurt over some of the things that happened in my marriage". - that kind of thing. Not "She did this and she did that". Yes - we all know. You are not the only one this has happened to. We have all been to Hell and back with the things our spouse did to us.

Everyone here is giving you fabulous advice. You need to take the time to listen and make a game plan.

I had a similar experience to Gypsy. I ran into ex's aunt and uncle one day (a couple of years after he ran off with OW). I told them what a Sh!t he was. How badly he treated me. How he wouldn't pay the kids' tuition. etc. etc. etc. I went on and on. And guess what? These 2 people whom I really cared about have removed themselves from my life. So I stopped. I realized that his relatives all cared but they had absolutely no control over his actions. But he was still their brother, nephew etc.

Today I have had his brother, nieces and nephews and one aunt and uncle stay in touch via Facebook or Christmas cards. This is better for my kids.

Life is not fair. Definitely not. At 4 years old - my son suffered traumatic brain injury. Ex left me and I raise him on my own and it is NOT easy. Not one day is easy. But I go on and I have a great life. Because I choose to have a great life regardless of my past.

I can honestly say that after 10 years - I do NOT forgive my ex for the horror and pain he caused me. Yes - you read that right. But I have gotten PAST it. I do not allow myself to drown in it. I had to go through it to get out of it. To feel the emotion. Then to take control of it and let go.

It took time and distance. After years of hanging on (I was one of the worst) - I finally stopped all communication with him unless it was something urgent about the kids. And he continued to be the nastiest person on the planet to me and sometimes the kids and even others. Which said a great deal about HIM - not about me. While I went on, met a wonderful someone new and began a much better life without him.

And it takes time to see them change too. Today we communicate a bit. I don't like him at all or what he did to me. I will not meet OW (they married) and accept that - but it is what it is. I do not talk to my kids about him unless they start the conversation then I listen, listen, listen as they struggle to come to terms with it all and keep whatever relationship with him that they can.

And my son's nurse tells me he cries a bit when she is leaving with my son (he sees him app once a month). Even though she doesn't know the story well (I have stopped TELLING everyone what happened) - she says - I think he regrets his choices.

Yes - they want the world to thing they've got a better life but truly - do you believe that? They live with guilt - like it or not and that can eat them up from the inside out.

Make some changes in your life. Make a concious decision to to that. Don't justify your own actions - make changes for the better. I started by telling myself I would not say one bad thing to the kids about their father. I regretted some things I had already said. It was a small first step but it led to many more.

Time heals all wounds and Time wounds all heels.

Listen. We have all walked in your shoes. We know.

Barb

[antlers]

Forgive her for her wrongs just as you expected her to forgive you, yours.

Hi Barb. My counselor is telling me that it's important for me to forgive...in order to let go of the pain and move on. A lot is said on this board about forgiveness...25 has on her posts that "Forgiveness is a gift that you give yourself". You encouraged me to forgive my ex, just as I would like her to forgive me. How is it that you, and Gineen...admittedly, have been able to let go and move on without forgiving? Honest and sincere question there. I've been kicking it around because I really want to be able to let go and move on. And I want to do whatever it takes to be able to do that. I want to be healthy physically, mentally, and emotionally. I don't think I'm to where I can do it right now, but if it's necessary, then I want to do whatever is necessary in order to be more focused and moving on in a positive way.

Barb, I'm sorry for your hardships. I've been an ER nurse for 26 years now, and I've seen lots of bad stuff like that. God bless you for continuing to love and care for your son. It takes a special kind of sorry-ass person to 'bail' like your ex did on a situation like that. I'm sure your heartache and feelings of betrayal have been huge.

[SunFunOne]

Well,

I like the way Gineen describes it. I don't think that my ex and OW cheating their spouses or treating them in an abusive manner is something you can totally say "what you did was ok" - because I can never get to that place. But I can get "past" it. I won't let it ruin my life. That's sort of how I "forgive" so to speak. I sure don't forget and I sure don't trust him or like him or want him in my life. But the truth is - he always will be. In future - he and I will become grandparents on the same day. And we will both love our grandchildren no doubt, the way we love our children.

That's cool that you are an ER nurse. You see a lot. And help so many people every day. I have the deepest respect for nurses and have been touched deeply by many - something I can never forget.

And yes - how could he bail on his son. And truthfully - I think that's coming back now to haunt him and bite him in the butt.

Sometimes - if we step back and let them deal with their own guilt. Or sleep in their own mess. It really helps NOT to point it out to them. I could not do that for a long, long time despite everyone here telling me to do just that. I pointed and shouted and criticized him and told anyone who would listen how wronged I was. And he spent all his time being angry at me for his situation (?????) But when I stopped. He was forced to realize that he didn't live in a bed of roses. And he was able to see what he did to us much more clearly. And he stopped being angry back.

Do I think he is a dickhead? OH YEAH! But do I think about him much. Nope. I have too many better things to think of.

Barb

[antlers]

Forgiving someone doesn't make what they did OK. Forgiveness simply means you will not hold on to what they did to hurt you. You don't forget it, and certainly don't excuse it. It just means I won't let it affect my emotions anymore.

I agree wholeheartedly with that.