Putting it back together, but SSM issues linger

[Accuray]

Wow Captain, that was excellent, very thought provoking. You definitely made me stop and think. Don't think I skimmed over what I didn't quote below. I've only responded to areas where I have questions or want further dialog. The rest I accept with a humble "you are correct sir"

Wasn't it her that offered the solution by going directly to divorce?

Yes, but I don't understand the point you're making in this regard. I don't view divorce as the worst possible outcome. The worst possible outcome is "take no prisoners" acrimonious divorce and we didn't get near that.

By your own admission (below) you get resentful at the absence of sex…and in your own words you say she does not enjoy it and does not look forward to it. You use the words “she doesn't seem to mind.” You do realize that is your interpretation of that and unless she has specifically told you all of that (that she doesn’t mind, that she does not get angry or upset in any way) in an absolutely safe and truthful way, you really have no basis to say that.

Yes, although I admit this is my impression of things, it is informed. Historically she *would* get angry when she felt she was providing sex as a duty, when she really wasn't feeling connected to me at all, and that anger came through loud and clear. I saw the anger, but didn't understand the source because she wouldn't discuss it. I thought it could have been her job, parents, whatever the case may be, but the anger was evident either way. There is no anger evident now. The feeling of present anger is just not there anymore. There is caring now, and not resentment.

She also HAS discussed her feelings on the matter with me. We had several serious R discussions as part of our piecing, and I did get a lot of insight into her prior state of mind.

It is the scars I bear from years of living in the shadow of that anger that cause my issues with feeling like "taking". I simply can't do that anymore. As much as now it's receiving rather than taking, it's still difficult, because I would prefer to share instead of receive if that makes sense.

You'll have to take it on faith that our current ML does not make her angry. She doesn't resent me at this point. She has convinced herself that my changes have made me someone new, perhaps that's how she's wiped the slate in her own mind. I'm not going to pretend that the years of hurt have been erased on her part, they haven't. I have done a good job of not backsliding however. I "get it" and have embraced what she needs from me. I intellectually also understand the acceptance and no expectations. It's simply at odds with my needs, and those needs may be "mission critical" to me, to use my IC's language.

she is very definitely upset and suppressing the expression of anger, which probably originated somewhere and sometime else; a learned coping mechanism that you are having to deal with.

Yes, she is angry with her parents. Lots of suppressed anger there. She had some disfunctional prior relationships that left her with more anger. She also certainly accumulated some anger over the course of our marriage. She describes her current state of mind as "how she's always been, for as long as she can remember". She copes well however, she's not one to lay in bed all day or get paralyzed by depression. She manages to be happy once in a while, and that's what I live for. It's magical when her mood is good. She's very smart and self-aware, has her situation more or less understood, and chooses not to deal with it.

From every thing I know, it likely extends from that fear you mention at the end of the post, that once something starts, the “never enough” feeling is something that she sees as something that she cannot control and it just spirals down from there.

Yes, the IC nailed it. In discussing it with W she said "yes, I've told you that, you already knew that" Sadly, I did not. I wasn't able to understand it until the IC framed it for me. It's not a base of operation that I can identify with.

The one thing she can control is your “want” to feel wanted or desired. Reading your later post, she can also control by not emailing or texting you. If there is all this fear, then it also there when she does not meet the expectation (hers or yours) by failing to text, no matter what the reason. “Why bother”if she's already “in trouble” for not doing what she said she would do.

You lost me here, please expand. You're saying that she can exert some control over me by not meeting my expectations and keeping my "want" going. Wouldn't that just make her feel worse?

And therein lays the problem. To paraphrase or quote YODA: “Do or do not. There is no try.”
...
See, it sounds like you are doing something without actually committing to anything. And that is the point.

True, as mentioned, I did give it up for 14 months. I never mentioned it or made an overture in that time. From my perspective, that was a commitment. When I stopped commenting / pursuing more recently, she got upset thinking that she was failing me and started crying. It didn't seem productive to continue to pretend I wasn't interested in sex.

I simply cannot have no sexual expectations and be true to myself. We all have limits, that's something I know I can't do. If there's a line where I give up, that's where it's drawn. Being in a relationship with someone who I am attracted to, but am not sexual with makes me dark, it negatively effects all other aspects of my life, and to me, that tradeoff is not worth it.

Here is a quick test. If your wife told you tonight, when she gets home, that she never wants to have sex with you again and wants to stay married to you…would you still love her? And how would she know?

Captain, that's a *very* loaded question which I'm sure you appreciate. You told me yourself that we all have a line. That would cross mine. If my wife got sick and was physically unable to have sex with me, I wouldn't give it another thought, I would stay and love her. At that point I would have no expectation.

If she came home and told me that she was going to choose not to have sex with me ever again for no other reason than she didn't feel like it, I could not stay married to her. I wouldn't be doing either of us any favors by agreeing to that. I *would* still love her, of course I would, but I couldn't stay married, and those are two separate things.

I would imagine that if I came home and told her that I decided I wouldn't spend quality time talking to her ever again, she would not stay married to me either, and I wouldn't hold that against her. How could I? I know how important that is to her, and it's within my power to give. To withhold it and expect to stay married seems wrong.

Now to GB90's point, I could choose to view her lack of desire like a serious physical illness that precludes sex. Unfortunately, I couldn't live with that self-deception. I would wake up each day seeing through that and viewing it as a willful withholding, which in fact, I believe it would be.

Acceptance” is going to be a real challenge. I know. I am in and out of this “acceptance” myself.

Yes, this is what keeps me up at night. I have the opportunity to participate in this marriage which promises to be pretty damn good along many dimensions. There is one that is problematic. If I leave the marriage, there is absolutely no guarantee that I will find "a package" as good as the one I have now. Maybe I can find someone to be with where the sex will be outstanding, but if the rest of it isn't as good as what I have now, I probably won't be as happy in the long haul. If the rest of the marriage were bad, this would be easy. I'm agonizing over it because the rest is good.

The problem you face and will continue to face is that while she may know you *love her,* she also knows you don't accept her because you want her to be a certain way (your expectation) and she feels she can't be the way you expect.

To make things worse, I have faith in her to the point that I believe she *can* address these issues. I believe that if she works on her anger and self esteem, she will be a happier and more fulfilled person with or without me, and I do want that for her, from a very sincere place of love.

If someone you love woke up every day and slammed their hand in the door, could you stand by and watch that? Wouldn't it tear you apart every day knowing how unnecessary it is, and that the person could choose to stop doing that?

And there is another blind spot for you. You expect your wife to “accept” you. It is easy if your views and hers are pretty much aligned. Not so easy if they aren’t. My impression is that you don't feel very accepted right now.

Actually, I *do* feel that she accepts me. That's not what's driving my angst.

Keep your awareness of what you are telling yourself. It will guide you through. The tough part is doing it in the moment and 'on the fly.'

Yes, I'm having a hard time reconciling and accepting. I'm hopeful the IC can help to guide me through. I don't want divorce, I believe it permanently hurts the kids, and they're at a bad age for it. On top of that, I love my W and DO want to stay married. It's a very difficult tradeoff of things that are very important to me weighed against accepting what my W is and isn't able or willing to give. I'm not at the point of accepting that she's powerless to address her issues, and THAT is my problem. I realize that's not up to me to decide. She needs to do it for herself, not for me.

Accuray



[/quote]