Putting it back together, but SSM issues linger

[TeaEarlGreyHot]

Accuray: I read through your last post before finalizing this and while I know you were venting, I thought it was still important to post this. Your thoughts and internal conversation are playing havoc on your feelings. You probably know that at some level but it is a little like trying to jump around behind yourself to see your own back.

That said, know that what may seem to challenge and confront you directly is actually designed to have you think through and be aware of your own word processing and how it directly affects your view of the world. That may be important later this evening. So here goes:

I have mix feelings about your wife forcing herself to have sex with you. Mine was doing something similar, eventually she tired of it, and stopped it. Yours sounds to be heading that way.

I don't think she'll do that. She really took the SSM book to heart, and she really doesn't seem to mind doing it, it doesn't make her angry or upset in any way. The issue is really mine, it bothers me that she doesn't enjoy it and look forward to it. She doesn't hate it by any means, she's just very take it or leave it. It would be nice to feel wanted or desired once in a while, you know?

I’m curious on what basis you come to this conclusion. GB90 may be on to something and I also have thoughts along the same lines. I also have some experience with this as well.

Wasn’t it her that offered the solution by going directly to divorce? Do not pass go, do not collect reconciliation? So, you already know one of the worst possible outcomes is already at the table. You certainly have accomplished much by drawing back from the brink and generating some conversation around the issues and I don't diminish the importance of that.

By your own admission (below) you get resentful at the absence of sex…and in your own words you say she does not enjoy it and does not look forward to it. You use the words “she doesn’t seem to mind.” You do realize that is your interpretation of that and unless she has specifically told you all of that (that she doesn’t mind, that she does not get angry or upset in any way) in an absolutely safe and truthful way, you really have no basis to say that. Besides your IC is likely to dissuade you from this line of thinking because if there is all this other stuff going on for her…she is very definitely upset and suppressing the expression of anger, which probably originated somewhere and sometime else; a learned coping mechanism that you are having to deal with.

From every thing I know, it likely extends from that fear you mention at the end of the post, that once something starts, the “never enough” feeling is something that she sees as something that she cannot control and it just spirals down from there.

The one thing she can control is your “want” to feel wanted or desired. Reading your later post, she can also control by not emailing or texting you. If there is all this fear, then it also there when she does not meet the expectation (hers or yours) by failing to text, no matter what the reason. “Why bother” if she’s already “in trouble” for not doing what she said she would do.

Instead focus on reducing all expectations of sex. You mentioned OM seemed a better choice because there were no expectations. I think you should steal this from his book.

I've tried that many times over the course of our marriage. That usually results in sex disappearing and me getting resentful. Honestly we're in a better place when she agrees to a given frequency but I let her decide when. MY issue is really the attitude she is bringing to it more than anything else.

And therein lays the problem. To paraphrase or quote YODA: “Do or do not. There is no try.”

“Try” is a weasel word. I can even give you an exercise to demonstrate this. Place a piece of paper on a table. Now try to pick it up. Did you pick it up? Well, you failed to follow directions. I didn’t tell you to pick it up, I told you to "try to pick it up." So, put it back down on the table and try to pick it up. Is it still on the table this time? Try harder. Still on the table? You aren’t trying hard enough, try harder.

See, it sounds like you are doing something without actually committing to anything. And that is the point.

Our lives and how our lives occur to and for us is based in language, specifically the language we use. Without language we are unable to describe an occurring world. Ever wonder why you can’t remember stuff before a certain age? Don’t think things happened in your world as a baby or a toddler? They did, you just didn’t have language to describe it and without language to catalog how things occurred, there is no way to remember. “Try” is one part of the language you learned very early on.

From inside your own head I know it looks like you are in a better place because she does sex to or on you periodically. And from the way you have written about it (the words you have chosen), that is what it looks like. She’s doing sex to you or on you “in order to” avoid something (e.g., you getting resentful). You’ve written things to that effect elsewhere in this thread as well. You don’t like her attitude? You’re really going to be unpleasantly surprised when she gets tired of doing sex to you. And as you admit, it is your issue.

Expectations can be a killer (different from anticipation) for more than one reason. Expectations are based upon a past conversation you’ve had (with yourself) and/or learned. It IS the way things SHOULD BE!

Failing to meet expectations (by falling short) leads to disappointment and fear that something is wrong. Maybe not the first time (but you will remember the disappointment), but certainly after numerous failures. So, every time you expect things to go a certain way and they don’t, what isn’t being fulfilled is a past conversation about the way things should be.

This is the language of your life and right now there is another set of language competing for your attention to explain your predicament. What a keen observer would note is that there is a certain excitement about "insights" and a new set of thoughts (and language) that may ring true for you. It's what you do with those insights that will ultimately matter. Some may be less compelling than they seem now, some may make a real difference (in defining your future relationship with your wife). Only time will tell.

My W believes that whenever I do something nice it's to get sex. She can't see the love involved in the action or in the sex. My goal is to break this belief through actions not words. To make her feel loved AND desired.

That's not my situation at all. I do not have "No More Mr. Nice Guy" stuff going on. I definitely don't "give to get" and my W doesn't regard me in that way. She *knows* I love her. It's not that she doesn't want me to validate her. The issue is that she's got a quick inadequacy trigger, and it's easy to fire that. Being critical of ANYTHING around her makes her feel badly about herself. I don't criticize her, and she is not insecure in my love for her.

Sex is not an overtly divisive issue in our marriage, we don't argue about it. The tensions are more subtle.

Here is a quick test. If your wife told you tonight, when she gets home, that she never wants to have sex with you again and wants to stay married to you…would you still love her? And how would she know?

Mine believes I only validate for sex, could yours be feeling the same?

She does not. My W does not feel good about herself, and wants me to accept that rather than expecting her to work on it. Same thing with sex -- she doesn't have a drive for it and wants me to accept that. She's not interested in having good sex, she's not interested in having sex at all, but she will do it.

In response to Adinva's post, she doesn't seem to take any pleasure from satisfying me in that way (or any way). She doesn't do things to make me happy. It doesn't seem to do anything for her to please me. That's not to say that she's mean to me -- she's not. She's just low energy / low affection / low enthusiasm. In insight my IC contributed is that the *reason* she doesn't do things to please me is her fear that it will never be good enough, that she'll be judged and found to be lacking. Any form of thank you or praise (to her) is a reminder of all the things she didn't do or is not doing.

That's a tough spot for me to be in, it's very "no win" from my perspective.

Accuray

You are correct in that sense…it is no win if you expect that what you describe as "needs" being met. I saw this earlier this week when you originally wrote about your new IC. “Acceptance” is going to be a real challenge. I know. I am in and out of this “acceptance” myself.

Let’s face it, you are quite clear that your wife’s personal preference is for no sex whatsoever. Left to her own preference she would not be sexually involved with you any longer while being married to you. Isn’t that what you’ve described? The problem you face and will continue to face is that while she may know you *love her,* she also knows you don’t accept her because you want her to be a certain way (your expectation) and she feels she can’t be the way you expect.

And there is another blind spot for you. You expect your wife to “accept” you. It is easy if your views and hers are pretty much aligned. Not so easy if they aren’t. My impression is that you don't feel very accepted right now.

Keep your awareness of what you are telling yourself. It will guide you through. The tough part is doing it in the moment and 'on the fly.'

The Captain