Never thought I'd be here......part 2

[Crimson]

I hear you CO, but I keep thinking if I don't slightly mention the "transformations" I will never have a chance to speak to them - remember, she lives away now and I see her maybe once a week. Text and e-mail is all I really have - so is it bad if I make a simple remark? I think you're right about playing the dating thing close to my chest - I'm not dating, of course. My fear there is that if she thinks I'm dating someone then maybe she will - and as weak as this sounds I do NOT want that to happen. I feel like this is an opportunity to peacefully make a DB-type statement. Am I wrong? I can take it if I am.....

Crimson

[Accuray]

Crimson,

You're getting good advice here. NO WAY should you respond to her dating comment in any way. Pretend she didn't say that at all.

I am glad to hear of your transformations. I wish I could’ve been instrumental in supporting them along the way, It is interesting to see that once I was gone, you were able to make changes. Whatever the case, I’m glad to hear about them.

Why is she "hearing" about your transformations -- did you inventory them for her? If so, do not! The point is to do it for you. If she notices them, great! If not, that's ok too. Do not inventory all the changes you've been making for her benefit, that is pursuing.

Regarding transformations, even though you haven’t been around to support them along these last few months, you’ve been very influential – so I thank you for that. I’m trying to be a better human being and a better father.

Don't acknowledge her transformation comment either, she's baiting you.

========================================================

You need to build some mystery -- you need her to *wonder* what you're up to, so don't serve it up, make her dig for it.

Here's my ultimate DB scenario for you for the holiday:

W comes to pick up S or drop off S (versus you doing the driving). When she arrives, you are not waiting for her, she walks up on a scene where you're surrounded by friends and family, you're looking good, happy, obviously having a good time. Your blackberry is nowhere in site. You're wearing sharp clothes she hasn't seen before and have a new or different haircut.

When she comes, you're polite to her but not overly friendly, you do not invite her to stay. You help her collect S's things, load him into her car, kiss him goodbye, and go back inside.

She shows up by herself, picks up S, and drives home to be *alone* with S. That's what you want:

1) She sees you happy without her being part of the picture
2) You do not pursue at all
3) One of her complaints (Blackberry addiction) is not in evidence
4) You're at ease in a scene that looks fun and inviting but does not include her
5) There is something different about you (clothes, hair, attitude) that she doesn't understand, and you do NOT explain it.

If you can pull that off, that's probably about as good as you can do.

Accuray

[Crimson]

Accuray - I hear you and I think you're right. But tell me how I am being baited with the "transformations" comment. I'm not saying that I'm NOT being baited - I just don't fully see it. Insight is not my strong suit.

Also, I have NOT been saying ANYTHING about changes. Not a word - Ni un palabra! These are all things that she has seen on her own. And I am making them for me - they have to be permanent and I know if I do it just for her they won't be.

Crimson

[Crimson]

So I have a theory. W is still casual friends with the neighbors across the street and very good friends with the neighbors a few houses down. Two weekends ago a friend of mine went with me to my company Christmas party (very plutonic). She stayed at the house for a day or two and I when we were backing out of the driveway she waved at the neighbor and his son - from a moving vehicle that could have very easily looked like my W. I'm going out on a limb and guessing that the neighbors spoke and thought they saw her and it eventually made it's way back to her. Not that it matters in any way.

Am I crazy for thinking that this is incident is an opportunity? I am OK glossing over the dating remark - even though I fear that it will send a green light to her to date. Again - that would bother me. Still I feel like I need to say something about the transformations remark. If the overall consensus of the vets here is otherwise, I will go with it. I just feel like she opened a little window and I am not taking advantage of it. Again - I have no physical contact with her at all really. E-mail and text is all I have. I do not want to make it a "pursuit" thing at all - I just don't want the fact that she has (on her own) noticed changes to go unaddressed. How can I show her that marriage to me would be different/better from this point forward?

I don't want to reveal too much about what I have going on - I understand the notion of maintaining mystery. However, in the absence of personal contact how is she to know things are changing? Again, I get that these changes are for me - but I am very honest about wanting to save my M. In order to do that, how can I not involve her in some manner? I feel like I have detached - there is not a lot of reaching out on my part, but when does one reasonably throw out a signal? This is the one of the rare times that she has even mentioned anything along these lines - should I just let it pass?

I am perfectly willing to admit I am wrong about this if I am. I feel I may be.

Crimson

[labug]

I'm not a vet here but I did sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night!

I over think, over research, over rationalize, over talk everything and in the process get myself in trouble. Take it from me, I've responded to comments in the past with H and have always regretted it. Or I give too much information, my last one was "yes I was pi$$y and angry (about taxes) last year but I'm no longer pi$$y and angry. I'm now J, glad to meet ya." Cute, huh butt trying to telegraph "See, I've changed."

Luckily the rest of the email stuck to facts. Like you, this is the only contact I have with him.

Just think on it for awhile.

[2thepoint]

"Am I crazy for thinking that this is incident is an opportunity? I am OK glossing over the dating remark - even though I fear that it will send a green light to her to date."

Do you really think you have any say in this whatsoever? Cause you really don't!

"I just don't want the fact that she has (on her own) noticed changes to go unaddressed."

Why on earth do you have to address with her the fact that she may have noticed some of your changes?

"How can I show her that marriage to me would be different/better from this point forward?"

Shut the heck up and show her some more changes. But don't say anything about them.

You may want to reread the Divorce Remedy because you seem to be missing some critical do's and don'ts that our detailed in the book.

I'm sorry for the forceful and direct feedback, but I feel like you need it.

[2thepoint]

Oh, and quit trying to mind read and interpret every action or reaction. It does you no good and will make you crazy. If/when your wife is ready to reach out, she will let you know.

[Crimson]

I can handle the forceful and direct feedback, in fact I prefer it. So no need to apologize.

I see your point about shutting the heck up and showing her more changes. I just struggle, like most in my situation with a w that has moved out, with HOW to show her. That is really a problem. Again, I know I am probably wrong here and will most likely go against my gut and not address the "extras" she brought up outside of the logistics. I just feel anxious, like I am missing an opportunity not to say "look at me!!!! I'm changing!! But to say "I'm taking ownership of my role in this and am working on me right now". Not that verbatim, but something along those lines. If I am waaaay off base here, which is what I am sensing here, I can accept it.

Crimson

[Accuray]

Crimson,

Saying "look at me, look how good I'm doing" is pursuing, because you are looking to her for validation. You're putting on a little show and she is your audience. That's why you don't talk about it, you don't seek approval. If you MUST say something because it's killing you, talk about an accomplishment that your changes have enabled. For instance, if you had a goal to get in great shape by hiking, talk about a recent summit you bagged and how much fun it was. In that case, you're sharing something fun, the fact that you had to be in good shape to bag the summit is implied. Get it? Don't say "hey, I've got myself in really good shape, I know you always wanted me to do that". That's different from saying "I went on this really great hike on Sunday with some friends. We climbed up X peak and the view was awesome! I'd like to take S in the backpack on something a little less ambitious". See the difference?

The BEST thing is to say nothing and to continue to demonstrate your changes.

Here's the thing -- SHE NOTICED!

Let me say that again -- SHE NOTICED!

Why do you need to discuss it? You're sitting pretty, you've made progress! You haven't talked about it, and she noticed (or heard about it) anyway. All you can do now is screw it up. If you talk about it, she's not going to think your changes are even better. Let her imagination fill in what she doesn't know, let her wonder. You want her thinking about you, if you tell her all the details, she has no reason to think about you at all because she knows everything.

am OK glossing over the dating remark - even though I fear that it will send a green light to her to date.

Your lights don't have anything to do with her decision to date. She'll date if she wants to, regardless of whether you are dating or not. You can't control that so don't worry about endorsing it (or not)

How can I show her that marriage to me would be different/better from this point forward?

The answer is in your question, you have to "show" her, not "tell" her. Let it go. Telling only sets you back.

This is the one of the rare times that she has even mentioned anything along these lines - should I just let it pass?

Crimson, she initiated some dialog with you that wasn't about S or D. Did you read my analogy about the dammed up water? To your W, you are a big dammed up resevoir of emotion. She wants no part of that, she wants to stay away from it. If she makes a little overture and you overwhelm her, she will retreat. If you let it pass, you're more likely to get more from her, and you're more likely to get more sooner.

I believe it's in DR where it talks about a relationship like a teeter totter, when one person is up, the other is down, you can't both be up at the same time. You need to give her the space to reach out to you, by not reaching out to her.

You need to let her make overtures by not making any of your own.

When she does reach out to you, you need to make that experience "safe" for her. You make it safe by never escalating the situation, never taking it up a notch from what she's bringing to the table. If she hugs you, hug her back but don't kiss her or say "I love you". Keep it at the level she is bringing -- that makes it "safe" for her to extend herself a little more.

I think I posted you the link to the passage I quoted from "Love Must Be Tough" on CaughtOffGuard's thread. Re-read that. If she steps left away from you, and you take a step left to follow her, she's going to take another step left to maintain distance from you. If instead you take a step to the *right* thereby increasing the distance:

1) she has no reason to move any farther away
2) It's safe for her to take a step back toward you without violating the spacing she wants.

Make sense?

You need to let that whole dialog go. There is no response needed from you about any of it.

Accuray

[Accuray]

One more thing...

You asked how she's baiting you with her comments. Here's the explanation of that.

She implies that you wouldn't have been able to make your changes with her around.

That's the bait. Why is that bait?

If you agree with her, then you validate her decision to move out. Because she's moved out, you've been able to become a better person, so her decision to leave was the right one.

If you don't agree with her, now you're arguing and that validates her decision to move out.

You can't win. As Joshua rightly discovered, "the only way to win is not to play" (I'll buy you a Coke if you can identify that reference)

Accuray