Your W has given you a valuable gift of input to how she perceived your marriage, and what got her to this point.
Some of it may be coming from self-convincing, or rewriting history, but look for yourself and with your IC to find where the truth is. (I say it's a gift because my H wouldn't tell me why he wanted to leave me, he said it was just too much to list. I'm getting a little feedback now, finally.)
Yes yes seek anger management because she thinks you need it. It shows you're trying in good faith, and it will likely help you no matter where you fall on the spectrum.
And to answer your question, you don't sound like a monster to me and yes, I would be afraid of you when you're slamming doors. I'm sensitive to my perception of violent anger. My parents argued when I was little and slammed things and broke dishes, and I hid in a closet. And they were great parents, not perfect but not abusive at all by the standards of the day (meaning there were definitely spankings). But to this day I can't bear slamming doors. Once my H threw a carseat in the garage because he was mad and I felt (irrationally) terrified.
I'm not saying I was correct to be afraid. But you see a lot of people here who feel upset when their spouse is upset - their emotions are sort of entwined and they have lost control of theirs. If your W felt afraid simply because you were showing anger, she may be in that boat too and could learn more about boundaries and that "you are responsible for your own emotions" and such.
But it would be helpful for you to understand if she has a very low tolerance for physical expressions of anger, why that is, and how you can productively express and/or feel your own emotions without frightening her.
I think there's hope.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
Thank you for the insight. I really hadn't thought of W's telling me about what was bothering her as a gift. I really appreciate that.
Well, my IC sort of let me go today. Kind of out of the blue. We have had a 2 year (about) relationship, and she has been been clearly the best IC I have ever had (they are hard to come by - ones you really connect to, and feel you can trust).
Her reason for letting me go? in her own words, "There's nothing wrong with you." She said it over and over in our final session today. She gave me the referral for anger management (which she feels I do not need), and urged strongly that we go to MC.
Well, that is going to be a bit of a trick. You see, in the past we have tried MC, and I was the problem. I didn't really participate - looked down at the floor. I felt ashamed, because I was convinced that I was the problem. Last time we went, therapist asked what my dissatisfaction with M was, and I couldn't think of anything. My thought process was that I just wanted to be able to stop f--king things up! I just wanted to do things right, and I was sure that if I did, our M would be fine. So, I didn't say what I wanted. Additionally, I was no good at following up (ADD strikes again), so I didn't do the homework. Except last time, when therapist gave us homework to do together. I even (occasionally) reminded W that it was time to do it. But most of the times I pretty much neglected everything.
The result of all this is that W now feels that MC would be a waste of time, and she believes that I would never do anything to better our M. So it will take some convincing to get her into MC. But first I want to go through anger management - I hope that I can learn to be able to speak my mind clearly and nicely, so that when I am asked what I would like to be different about M I won't freeze up, but speak for myself productively. Don't want history to repeat itself. I want to make it count this time.
Anyway, (ex)IC feels that the problems now lie with W refusing to give up past wrongs and with the dynamic between us.
One of the things that has been occurring to me lately is the fact that so much of our problems come from the fact that I am afraid of W. I have let myself get to the point where I absolutely need her, as though she were oxygen. I become so afraid of her withdrawing from me that I pursue, and (in my worse times, which, contrary to her statements, are far more rare now) become agitated with frustration in trying to get her to turn back toward me. I don't know if she realizes it, but I think she leaverages this. She has the upper hand in all arguments, because she can pull back and make me fear losing her. My response is to get more and more desperate, and sometimes that desperation turns to anger, which is poorly controlled. I don't think she realizes that when I scare her, I am actually terrified by her. Not that it would matter if she did. The fact is that my fear is no excuse for losing my temper, anyway.
My fear of W also keeps me from voicing my own opinions and even my complaints about our R. I say that there is something I don't like, and she responds by telling me how I have no right to talk, and that shuts me right down. So usually I say nothing. In all honesty, I am sure I have done the same thing to her at times. But turnabout doesn't make things any better.
If I could deal with her anger by just walking away (this, of course, assuming I have judgment to recognize when she has a legitimate complaint and when she is just P.O.ed) I think I could cut off a lot of our arguments.
Then, imagine how the tone of things would differ, if I treated her well and did good things for her not because I wanted her to stay and be available for me, but just because I cared about her.
And this can only happen if I can be independent, able to stand on my own, live life on my own, be happy on my own. I need not to NEED her. Then I can WANT and LOVE her.
After all, her turning the cold shoulder to me should be a disappointment, not a crisis. I should not be afraid of her withholding her attention from me (heck, lately I have lived with it for weeks/months at a time!). I should be able to live my own life, and pursue what I value (being a good father, good professional, some things I enjoy) regardless of W's approval.
I know that all I have been saying is really just a reiteration of GAL, and that it is something we have all read about. I am just having a realization of what GAL means.
I'm not even sure that W realizes, but she can't be happy when I am under her heel any more than I can.
OK, I am pretty sure there were a couple more things I wanted to say. However, once I get started, I just type whatever comes to mind, and this is all I have for now. Type at you later.
Oh, by the way, I have never put down my "vital statistics," so here they are:
Me 45 W 42 T 20 M 18 => S 17, D 15, D 11, S 10, S 7, S/D? -5 mos. and counting... W not saying she wants D, but emotionally closed, refusing contact etc.
Think about it...if you met a potential mate who was nothing but a bundle of needs, would YOU be attracted to them?
OK, just going over that last post - when I stated that W "responds by telling me I have no right to talk," what I meant is that she brings up what I have done to damage our relationship, so I have no right to complain about her.
Think about it...if you met a potential mate who was nothing but a bundle of needs, would YOU be attracted to them?
Your IC may have had a good connection with you but maybe hit a wall and wasn't doing any good. The things you talk about being afraid of W, needing her like oxygen, backing down on arguments and then frustration building into anger, these are things you would seek IC for. Did you discuss these things with your IC? It's hard to believe that you did and she felt you were doing just fine.
You sound like a good candidate for a DB coach, since it's solution focused and you learn to do more of what works and less of what doesn't. Or at least find a different IC, or do some reading, to help yourself detach from your W's emotions and figure out how to feel stronger.
When one person changes, the relationship dynamics have to change. So if she won't go to MC you can still create change on your own.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
IC knows that I am aware of the strategies I need to use, and she feels that, at this point, my behavior is no longer contributing to the discord in the M, and that the only things I could talk about now would be things I already know - that I need to not "react" to W's anger at me, that I need to not let fear take over but keep reminding myself that I have my own life (I discussed DB with her - she then read the book and says it's mostly common sense, but it's right and she likes it) and will survive with or without W's emotional presence, and that I need to treat myself with respect in order to treat W with respect.
The only other thing she says I need to learn is to argue with W without either backing down or getting angry and out of control. And she told me that the anger management therapist will cover that with me (IC is in practice with this therapist, so knows her very well). I should also say that IC has met with W and me together once, and has multiple times during my therapy called W to get her POV on things. So she is not talking blindly when she says that there is no problem with what I am doing - even by W's account. The last time she spoke with W was on Monday of this week, and she says that the only complaints that W gave were of things that happened over a year ago (but she was still ranting about them). Feels W is having trouble letting go of what has already happened. This is why she thinks that MC is what we really need - to work through stuff that is wrong between us, rather than what's wrong with one of us.
Here I do have a bit of a struggle, because I know that it is too easy for me to lay all the blame for our problems on W. At the same time I know that one of my issues in therapy was learning to accept that W has moods and feelings of her own, independent of me, even if she sometimes claims they are my fault. I have also struggled with allowing W to have some responsibility for our relationship - to recognize that not all the problems in our M are my fault.
A DB coach sounds like a good idea. The problem is money. We handle all money in a joint account (single-income family, you know), so there would be the issue of convincing W to agree to a $400-$700 expenditure. But I do need to keep that in mind, in case W refuses MC.
In any event, you are right. Learning to own my own emotions separate from W and developing a feeling of internal strength are the main issues right now. For years I have been telling myself that my life would be over if W wanted to separate, that I would just work for the rest of my life, and wait to die. It's bound to take time to reverse that powerful message. But I'm on my way.
Thanks for checking in on me. I appreciate having someone to bounce these things off of.
Think about it...if you met a potential mate who was nothing but a bundle of needs, would YOU be attracted to them?
Hey Psych77! Did you read "The Solo Partner" yet? I am working through it. Sounds like it might be a good stop gap measure for you if money for more expensive counseling is a problem. Then maybe put aside a bit each month to get a DB coach?!?
Me 57 XH 58 Sons age 32 & 27 M:32 D final 9/12 Bought 10 Acres and Living the Dream!
Well, life is getting really fun, now! Our marriage is like living on a roller coaster, and I am trying to stay anchored on solid ground instead of hanging on for the ride.
Last Sunday night W woke up late and told me that she had a bad pain in her abdomen, right around her navel. She asked me to look at it. I did, but then I tried to touch it to determine its consistency. BIG mistake. She blew up, said, "I just told you...oh, f*** it, forget it!" And she stormed out of the room. After giving her a few minutes, I tried to come out and apologize, but she told me I was "the last person I want to talk to now." Well, I at least know enough about W to realize that when she says "Go away," she means it. So, I went back to bed, while she sat up.
The next I heard from her was on the phone. She was calling from the hospital. She had driven herself to the ER to be checked out, and they admitted her with (we would find out later) was an abdominal hernia. Right, for a pregnant woman! She's only second trimester, and not even showing. She was calling me to tell me I needed to stay home from work and take care of the kids, since she (obviously) couldn't. When she called later with the diagnosis, I asked if there was anything I could do for her. I threw myself (and the kids) into getting the house cleaned up, giving her as little work to do as possible, as she couldn't be lifting anything.
W has a "gift" for getting injuries while pregnant. Slips and falls, twisted hips, other major pains that limited her mobility. And in the past, I have failed to take care of her, pick up the extra housework and other needs, when she has been less able. I knew this was wrong, but this time I resolved to do it right. I was going to rally the kids, organize them so that each would have a reasonable amount of work to do every day, and, ideally the house would "run itself" for W.
Well, I worked like a nutcase that day, addressing exactly what she was complaining about. While I haven't nearly got things organized enough for the house to run effortlessly for W, I have made strides.
W came home that afternoon early, having not slept all night (anyone who has been in a hospital for a stay can understand why). Her manner toward me was softer than it had been for a while, and she was visibly tired. I encouraged her to go to bed, I cooked dinner (had been working on that between my housework I had tackled, so it was in the crock pot), and took the kids out of the house to finish their Christmas shopping, so there would be no disturbances. When she woke up dinner was set, and we ate.
W remained softer toward me, although there was no affection between us (I can't believe how hard it is not to seek that, once we got a few times where it got better), for a few days.
Then, yesterday, W started to become cold and sharp again. S10 is in a school band, and had a concert last night, so we went. Before we even left I could hear the difference in her voice. Same son had also really gotten on board when I tried to get them to help with housework, and as we drove there, I told W how helpful he had been and how he had thrown himself into doing his part. W agreed that he was usually a good helper, and then, in a lower voice, in a sarcastic tone, "Yeah, it's amazing how the kids rally when you actually decide to help me...when you co-parent instead of leaving me to be a single parent for 18 years!" She said it low enough that the kids couldn't hear her, but I heard.
I know that she is having issues trusting a change she has been looking for over the years, and she is probably confused as to "why now?" Doesn't know when the other shoe is going to drop, waiting for me to drop my efforts. I know she is struggling with her own issues and pain. It's just painful for me to meet coldness at best, and hostility at worst, when I am trying to make changes to make things better for both of us.
I guess I am getting payback. There have been a lot of times when I made a token effort during crisis times and gotten rewards back immediately, only to lose the resolve later when the marriage crisis passed. I probably deserve this now. But it's still sometimes discouraging.
One good thing that has come out of this is that I am finally getting to the point where I am OK wherever things are. I really want our marriage back, but now I am realizing that if she doesn't love me anymore, I will live. I am a big boy, and will not fall apart. My life will not lose all meaning. I will live my life. I will pick up and carry on. It would not be my preference, but I can take it regardless of how W responds to me.
Thanks for listening.
Think about it...if you met a potential mate who was nothing but a bundle of needs, would YOU be attracted to them?
Psych, I've never posted to you before.. but I have read along with your sitch.
I think it is a brave thing you are doing. As someone who experienced the other side of the coin (My w has abusive tendencies), I can tell you that all I wish is for my wife to acknowledge the harm that she did and try to make amends for it.
HOWEVER - I am equally petrified of it all as well.. I find myself wanting to believe w, but ultimately the shoe other drops. If/When my w ever does become the woman who can have healthy relationships with people and decides to have one with me - I am sure that will be my most challenging moment in our r.
I don't know if your w is rewriting history or if you do discover some truth to her sayings in regards to the abuse. Again Kudos for you for searching deep within yourself to find the answers.....
.... and if you find there is truth, know that there will be a long journey ahead of you.
25's saying of = constancy + time = changes she can believe in... will apply NOW more than ever.
But know that by changing... you are not only giving your w a gift, but giving the gift to YOURSELF as well.
I think when we focus on doing things just for the other person, we can find ourselves tiring and feeling defeated when they don't respond as hoped.
I have discovered that if I perceive my 180s to be beneficial to the BOTH of us, they are much easier to stick to.
Do not get discouraged with the long journey ahead. Find ways to continue to show compassion and grace to your w as she continues to spew some venom. Remember that she is scared. Create the safest environment possible for her to face those fears and then leave the rest up to her.
((( )))
M(f): 40 D'ed: 8/12
Show empathy when there's pain. Show grace when warranted. Kindness in the midst of anger. Faith in the face of fear.
