DB'ing is soooo hard!

[rickb89]

Question for the DB vets (25yrs for example).

I understand that your DB'ing and sitch took years before a R happened. While you were detaching and GAL, and time was marching forward did you ever have someone express interest in a romantic relationship with you?

YES. Seemed once word got out that I was "on the market", a number of men showed interest.

How did it make you feel?

it flattered me and reassured me. I realized I would not be "alone" if I were to divorce.

How did you handle it, not knowing whether your WAS would ever return to you?


once I filed for a sep (w/support of my DB coach and MC -long story there)

AND after I saw that h was dating, I began to say "yes" to a few of the men who had asked. Nope, I didn't sleep with anyone. Yes it crossed my mind on occasion.

It's crucial to remember this - b/c I see others always assuming a r turns totally physical but its not necessarily true. For instance, I was very attracted to this one particular OM but did not sleep with him. I wanted to, sort of.
But I knew I wasn't ready. For one, there were weird things about it b/c I had been with only one man for so long, that I felt nervous and had some insecurities about things like "how to" with someone new, and stretch marks from being pregnant. Funny what enters our minds at moments like that.

I was completely honest with both men I "dated". One guy I went out with just twice but I liked him a lot as a friend. Very funny and smart but zero chemistry. Anyhow, I said the truth, that I was sep and that I had "some hopes" for a recon but was also "open to the single life" as well.

Mostly, the men I met were perfectly fine, but made me realize that h was in fact a good choice of partner for me. For one, some of the guys had big downsides to them (like they had no money but seemed interested in mine, OR they didn't see their kids much at all, which freaked me out. OR they bad mouthed their ex wives with such bitterness I was super turned off. They were definitely not the types of men I would bring into my life.

Also I never let anyone meet my kids. I listened to my mc who advised that, "only when you are 3/4 sure you want something long lasting, do you even introduce the kids to OM, and THEN the kids retain veto power".

OTOH, my h had some forgotten upsides. OMs at work made me realize how well suited h and I are for each other. For instance, H is well educated, smart and not threatened by me being smart too, ( I had forgotten that some men cannot handle a woman with more schooling or brains.)
H and I also have similar senses of humor and a lot of history.

For every exciting aspect of a new person, I found a downside to the lack of history with them, and an upside to having a partner who "gets" you. Of course, OMs would have been more appealing if h were still complaining and belittling and acting nutty in his MLC way. But by the time I began to date he had started to act a bit more rational. Selfish yes, but not so weird.


One guy who asked me out didn't know much about current events, or anything outside of his narrow work So yeah, that made h look better in comparison. ALSO a lot of men my age are not in good shape and h is. That makes a difference too.

However, I met one man I could see a future with who was very attractive. I slowed it down some b/c I was still on the fence with h. And in truth there was an obstacle with OM, (his love language and mine did Not match) that I felt would eventually be a dealbreaker for me. I could learn to love him but I would not been loved the way I wanted to be. Or so I feared.

So I backed off...and within a few months H made some moves back towards me. And OM moved on b/c he wanted to find a mate sooner rather than later, not a woman on the fence for long, and I would have been.

I am writing a book with a girl from London and we have a May publishing deadline so we are in constant contact. This is someone I have known as a great friend forever. BTW, she has a WAS too. She caught me off guard and asked if it were possible for us to create a life together. This really caught me off guard because there's never been anything romantic between us.

I am flattered by this. My immediate reaction, and then my more thought out reaction is that I absolutely do not want a life with anyone else, and I want my W to work through her issues, improve myself in what I need to, and hopefully R. I have no emotional doubt about how I feel.

I asked Kelli (London girl) if she really wants her M to work out and she said yes. I told her that I really want mine to work too.

Its nice to know someone cares though.

so you are not confused then? Your first and second reactions are the same. So, what is your real question?

I'm kind of thinking this all through in real time and just asking others how it is for them as I think this issue through. This British girl, Kelli, caught me way off guard and my feelings for my W when Kelli asked were actually very intense that I want my W and I to R, that if she can accept my improvements and she can move through her crisis then we could be very happy. That's my heart reaction. In my mind though there is some confusion. I've known Kelli since she was nine and if ever there was someone who could make me stop and think about another W, it would be her. I need to think this through more because there is so much I'm reacting to - my ego (esp w/ my W currently in an EA at the least), my loneliness in terms of the simple joys of female companionship, my age and how that factors into time left to enjoy a relationship, my kids, my wife's current breakdown, so much to think about. So yes, a lot to ponder. As I write this I really can't bring up a feeling that I want another relationship, casual dating or even a hookup. I have to watch out that I'm not looking at OW just because I know my W is an EA, you know like, hey I'm still got something in demand too. Really have to watch the ego here.

is it "when can I date for real?"

That depends on what you want, AND what you think will happen in your sitch

would dating hurt or help your cause?

(it can go either way. You have to figure it out FIRST, BEFORE you date or involve OW.

At this point dating another W would certainly end our M. Even though she has her thing going on w/OM, if I dated someone she in no way would put up with it.

E.G., If trust were an issue before, I think dating is a bad idea for the m. Your wife will learn of the dating and if it's someone you work with, you are complicating more than one thing at a crazy time.

Second, If there was an OW in the picture in your marital history, then, dating might be fatal to the chance of reconciling. A wife who felt insecure before, will be GONE and the m will be over...


No, I have never cheated on her or anyone else for that matter. I was with her and her only for 24 yrs. With her issues (you have seen these in earlier posts) she could not see the odd way it went with us - her being constantly hit on and needing the attention of men, and an inability to trust men (and me), it was a tough issue for us. I'm still figuring out how I could have handled this better. Honestly, I think I should have realized that she needed professional help and that I was not capable of handling this. Your previous comparison of her to Marilyn Monroe is really quite accurate and I think I was the Joe DiMaggio is this story. I used to try and talk this through with her over and over but I just could not find a way to bridge the gap.

OTOH, If the WAS is taking you for granted, or has been,

I would say I am being taken for granted! This is a 100% one-way relationship at the moment. Again, I can't read her mind
but on the surface this is totally one way - it's as if we were never married, and there's her OM sitch.

then dating might be helpful b/c when the WAS sees that you are moving on for real, and or that others are interested, they may wake up.

She does see that other W are interested but I have not returned the interest so I imagine she is processing that somehow. Pretty much any W I am in contact with is suspect. No, as long as we live together I think dating would be a very anti R move for us. I do so hate this OM sitch though!

For me, the dating was well hidden from h though I'm sure he knoww I did. It bugged him...a lot. That did not immediately lead to an obvious change.

H once spontaneously volunteered that he had "not slept with anyone else!!" and I said "that's nice, me neither"...

We have left it at that for 5 years. I'm fine with that.

Given that I was pretty darn attracted to an OM, and still did not sleep with him, I choose to believe h could do the same w/any possible OWs.

My W has told me more than once that is not in a relationship with the OM. I don't know if I believe her given other lies, and the fact that my cousin (OM) has hidden from me throughout this entire thing. If just a friendship then why the secrecy?

[25yearsmlc]

plenty of reasons to hide the R even if no sex is happening.

I just said that's what I did. I didn't want to embarrass my h or aggravate things but I did date and I did have feelings for OM. But I did not sleep with him.

The reason I hid it, among other things, is bc I didn't want h to think I was sleeping with him (and I wasn't.)

I find it odd that no one in your family has taken cousin out by the woodshed and done some "splainin' to him.

Not you, but someone needs to tell him he's hurting his own extended family and hanging with an older woman with problems he's NOT helping.

I hope your w gets the help she needs. Is she on meds now?

And face what it is with Kelli; you have a wounded ego and a younger cute woman you have shown some sort of interest in, expressed interest in you. She's also looking at you as a safe, older mentor man who won't hurt her like her h has wounded her. She is vulnerable and so are you.

You are both wounded people in no position to be in an R with the other. For her sake, and yours, make it clear that you two can date in your next life but not in this one.

hang in there.

it does get better

[rickb89]

[/color][color:#33CC00]

Rick

elsewhere you asked about dating. You said you are sure you want your m to work out. You also said it felt good to know that another person cared and I think you mean it feels good to know OWs find you attractive. Yes

I get that. You are lonely and needy. YES!!!!!!

But you have a goal in mind AND your w has some real problems she's getting help for. She feels pretty bad about herself. I cannot see how dating OWs in your situation would be a good idea at this point GIVEN the above. Yes this makes good sense. I am lonley and the subject of another relationship came up through a close female friend. I was sharing my thoughts with the DB crowd seeking input, and confronting this issue for the first time really.

My W is going through a huge crisis and breakdown. I won't go into the details of what lead to this major crisis as I have outlined them in previous posts, but know that she has major childhood trauma in her life that is erupting in a big way now and she is doing her best to face it yet still completely controlled by it. Her leaving me but still living together is where the DB'ing comes into play.

She's like an unpredictable tide that come in and out, but you don't know when or how big of a tide or what state it will be in. I'm not a psychiatrist nor do I have any training in this so it is very hard to know what to do, all the while DB'ing because of our living together separated status. I am just letting her be, do whatever she needs to do, and quietly there for her, all the while GAL, DB'ing, raising three sons, running a real estate company, writing a novel collaborating with a girl in London with a publishing deadline, am part of an amazing yoga group.

rick your life sounds like it did before and that's fine. But you almost seemed to be complaining here, as if your life is worse b/c of your w---and I know you are hurt but--[color:#33FF33]what is happening here ^^^ that would not happen with or without your w? Other than feeling rejected, which I'm not making light of, how is your life worse for this?

I was more just journaling and sharing here. Nonetheless my life is very different since the bombing and now I'm complaining! It is worse since the bomb for me in ways other than the practical. Regardless of the issues we have pre-bomb and after I miss sharing my life with her so much. I miss the constant sharing our days and it being part of our life together. I miss sharing the day to day stuff - the things we have in common, sharing the kids, our long talks, our history, things together - movies, books, music, travel, etc. Regardless of the tough issues we were living with, I shared my soul with her all along. For me, I remember the good despite the tough and while there were issues all along, there was good all along too. I feel like I might if I were widowed, and her ghost is in the house and I can see it all the time.

true-As a father your sons are hurt and bothered and I get that. But practically speaking you are pretty much going ahead and living your life the same as before, right? Did I misread this?

On the surface I am doing just that, but with taking on the duties my W used to do as well. So, it's gotten more complicated in terms of logistics but I've figured it out. On a more comical note learning to cook was quite an adventure, but when I started relating it to carpentry which I'm good at, it all started to fall into place.... measure twice, cut once. You are right that practically things are going on steadily. The emotional part and soul level stuff are parts of my life needing a lot of work in this sitch.

Maybe you are counting your blessings. I could not tell...just curious.

I was just letting people know where I am, and that I am GAL. Funny you should say counting my blessings. I just heard a beautiful song in which the singer said " I need no blessings, but I'm counting mine...". A great reminder for me!

[/color]
When my W talks to me she can literally experience an amazing range of emotions in one sentence - kind of like the four seasons all at once. She's been in suicide phase through this, escapism, depression, euphoria, rage, you name it.

Today she said that I should find someone else because she is no good to anybody anymore, that she has lost everything.

the OM is probably out of the picture and she thinks she's done too much damage to your m to "come home."

[color:#33CC00]I wish! Meaning, the OM out of the picture. As far as I can tell, and I don't stalk the situation anymore, he's still in the picture.

Your stability is crucial now more than ever. Being light hearted around her will demonstrate that ALL IS NOT LOST...you two CAN come back from this. Maybe rent a comedy, or do/see something she enjoys. Nothing heavy. Get her endorphins up. A back massage with no strings attached? Laughing, playing a game with sons, bowling--whatever SHE loves doing.
[/color]

I have really been able to be stay lighthearted for her, and yes I can see my stability is so crucial right now. There is some big earthquake going on inside her right now. For example, she burst into my home office yesterday screaming loudly that she needed me in an emergency. I dropped what I was doing and went to her aid which as it turned out was she was in a hurry to complete something for her job and needed me to show her how to backup pictures to a memory stick. The emotion she displayed was as if aliens had landed in our front yard. All the while screaming at our poor dog for barking at her (he was freaked out by her too), and telling me how I am last person she should be asking for help because of how horrible she is to me.

I told her not to worry about me, that I know what I am doing, and that she should keep working on herself right now. I said that's she's lost right now but she has not lost anything. From a DB point of view I think I played it pretty cool, but still showing support.



Spend more time listening and less time correcting her perceptions...do you get that

[color:#66FF99][color:#66FF99]I'm not sure then. The more you share with me I think I am starting to get it but I will say that this is tough. Pretty much anyone who shares some issue with me I immediately think of how can I help fix it, or offer thoughts in that light. I think I am going to have to stop myself from responding as per habit. Maybe a mental count till three or something before speaking. This one is really hard for me, but I have to get this. I even do this to myself. Fix this, fix that. Seriously, my earliest memories were thoughts on how I could fix the world. It's been with me all along.[/color]

Men tend to think when we women express pain, we must want it fixed. Usually we do not. I've got to get this!!!!!! We want to express our emotions and then process them and this is how we do it. If I say "I feel sad b/c I gained 10 lbs and feel fat and dread seeing my old friends" and you say "Don't feel bad b/c you look fine", you have also just told me I don't have the right to feel bad b/c I should not and that the topic doesn't even warrant more discussion. Why are M and W so different this way? Honestly, if you hadn't told me I would never think this is how it works for women.

God I need the 2" * 4" for this! However, and you will be glad to note she did bring up this exact topic this morning, i.e. she feels fat and out of shape. I resisted, put the tongue brakes on and told her I feel sorry that she feels that way. In my mind I could hear her thinking..."Hey you didn't deny it, you do think I'm fat!". In the past I would have said my typical responses... you look beautiful, come back to yoga with me and you'll feel great, etc.

See, that can feel like you are telling us what to feel, which does nothing to change how we feel so in effect our feelings are dismissed and the topic gets changed. In a way you never meant, it's the net effect of saying "Shut up, you are wrong"...

Jesus, I didn't mean it that way!!!!!

I hope you can understand what I'm saying and not get defensive. It's an observation about your situation and your w and your desire to control things so much...I may be repeating myself but you know, it's fine to ask her what she needs from you.

I not feeling defensive at all so thanks for your excellent input. Control things? It sounds so creepy this way, but you have me thinking. I think given my background (very tough in ways equal to my wife's) I do think I think of everything in terms of making something work or as some sort of challenge, i.e overcome this or it overcomes you. I'm thinking out loud here. Need to think about this.

"How can I help?" Instead of denying what she just finished saying...
[/color] Okay. I will try this out.

I thought about whether her knowing from me that she has not lost anything may not be the best DB approach but this stuff happens at light speed and I'm responding to her wild swinging emotions at the time.

well you are human and that's fine. But I would say you need to listen a whole lot more and not worry so much about correcting her perceptions. Her doctor is there for that. Also, are her suicidal ideations being reported to him or are those old feelings?

[color:#33CC00]I think these are old feelings but I worry that she might be hiding it if she feels it now. You see, last time she was public about this (August) she really had a hard time with knowing that others knew it. She's caught in a dilemma. She is seeing that how she kept everything buried in her hurt her so much, so when she let her thoughts on suicide out it was very foreign territory for her. She actually disappeared for four days that time and it was a very stressful time. She has expressed her feelings to her psychiatrist. What's tough for me is that what goes on between her and her doctor is confidential. What I know I know by her telling me. This is difficult because she plays out some of her issues on him too - the sultry siren who has that special connection to men. I hear this guy is very good and from what I get from her he is doing well with her issues. In fact he wants to see her daily but she can't do it practically. Just the fact that she is going to anyone is an amazing thing for her so I pray for time to do its healing.

Have you read 9lives thread? His wife took her life. Check his thread out sometime. [/color]

I will, but am apprehensive given the ending.

On one hand maybe the fear of losing everything may be the impetus for her to work her way back to me and family, but on the other hand she was so incredibly down that I didn't want her to feel like she blew it all.

it won't motivate her, it'll overwhelm her.

Make sure the road home is paved and smooth. Make sure she is getting the help she needs.

Did you watch the Marilyn Monroe movie? (See it but Do not take your wife to see it, imo)

I haven't seen it but will find it and watch it alone.

good luck Rick

and btw, don't do any dating soon. Your w sounds unstable to me.

SIDENOTE

did anyone ever confront the cousin? Does he say it's all innocent and that he was simply a shoulder for her to cry on?

I spoke to him once very early on and he sounded very innocent of any wrongdoing at the time. That was after my W got caught lying to me about being with her friends for a weekend and was really with him. He said he did not know she had lied to me and that in his view her coming to his place was just a way for her to get away from it all. That sounded reasonable to me but that was before someone hacked her email (I still dont' know who did this or why)and sent me emails from him to her that I could not in any way take as just being friends. That was before the hundreds of secret phonecalls, the mystery birth control of hers, the secret meetings in NY, and some other stuff. I'm just saying... that if they have gone this route of deception, the evidence certainly supports an affair. If one of my cousins wive's started showing up at my house I would talk to my cousin, i.e hey are you okay, what can I do, are you okay with this, etc. I wouldn't send her romantic emails, and hide hundreds of calls to her behind his back.
BTW, his brother learned of this without my input and really confronted him, about a month ago. My cousin in Penn said that there is no PA, but was very defensive about the amount of contact they have, i.e we talk once in a while (reality - up to three hrs/day).
Maybe this is really just two people in dire need finding help in each other. He's currently suffering from his second wife leaving him, custody battle, etc so the altrustic part of me says this might be just this only.

I bet that is how it started. He seemed safe in part b/c of his youth. We're the same age!

Innocent, idealistic and not capable of using someone...(in her eyes that is)

Again, hang in there!

I will! Thanks so much!!!!!!!!

[25yearsmlc]

for some reason I thought he was only 21 y/o....

where the heck did I get that?

well, anyhow...carry on Rick, you are doing very well, given the givens...

[rickb89]

plenty of reasons to hide the R even if no sex is happening.

I just said that's what I did. I didn't want to embarrass my h or aggravate things but I did date and I did have feelings for OM. But I did not sleep with him.

The reason I hid it, among other things, is bc I didn't want h to think I was sleeping with him (and I wasn't.)

I find it odd that no one in your family has taken cousin out by the woodshed and done some "splainin' to him.

Rick - He lives about 500 miles away from anyone else in our family. Remember that my sons found out about this before I did. When I found out I had to process it and deal with it, and on top of that had to talk some sense into my boys who were planning a little butt-kicking road trip to say hello to him. His brother who lives near me did explain to him that he is grossly out of line and needs to stop at once. No compliance there, this still goes on. With all that has gone on with my wife , and me, and both of us, this issue is the one that I find so hard to let go, detach, etc. I try to be above board, turn the other cheek, rise above it, maybe even believe my W is telling me the truth, but even so this guy has no common sense doing this. I have never been so challenged not to turn to the dark side. Even as I write this my blood is boiling. Look, as a side career I taught hundreds of kids the ancient kung fu arts and principles so I have developed a lot of self control, but this pushes me to the brink.... to think my own family would run behind my back like this. Seriously, his distance in mileage may be preventing some news at eleven type stuff.

Not you, but someone needs to tell him he's hurting his own extended family and hanging with an older woman with problems he's NOT helping.

I hope your w gets the help she needs. Is she on meds now?

Rick - yes she is on an anti-anxiety med. The doctor is still trying to help her and as far as I know there has been no definite diagnosis made yet. He has mentioned to her a possiblity combo of narcisistic personality disorder, and martyr personality disorder. Its hard to know for sure because of doctor-patient confidentiality.

And face what it is with Kelli; you have a wounded ego and a younger cute woman you have shown some sort of interest in, expressed interest in you. She's also looking at you as a safe, older mentor man who won't hurt her like her h has wounded her. She is vulnerable and so are you.

Rick - yeah I really have to be careful with Kelli, she been a dear friend forever. And yes she is younger (how did you know that?) and wounded and all that. I've known her simce we were kids and have been friends through her rise to fame and all so she does indeed feel very safe with me. I'm not after her money or anything like a lot of other guys and tell it like it is with her. In fact I use the 2" * 4" on her, in a sense passing on the insights I get here. The fact that we are in this book deal together, and my listening to her issues with her WAS have made her jump to me as a safe harbor.

You are both wounded people in no position to be in an R with the other. For her sake, and yours, make it clear that you two can date in your next life but not in this one.

Rick - Believe me, already done. With my W's jealousy issues over the years, Kelli and I did not see each other much for a long time, but kept in contact. I feel so weak that I allowed that to happen. That I let my W's fears dictate my choices. I can only blame myself for letting the double standard with my wife go on. I always believed in respecting a partners friendships of any sex and am not the jealous type. I do think I let the reality of it slide however, and buried this issue under the parts of our life that was good. I'm still trying to figure out how I could have handled this issue better. I really ate the poison of it for so long, let it make me bitter and feel less than valued by her. That would make me frustrated with her, and lead to stress between us. I just didn't face it the right way. although I'm not sure what the right way is.

hang in there.

it does get better

THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[rickb89]

for some reason I thought he was only 21 y/o....

where the heck did I get that?

well, anyhow...carry on Rick, you are doing very well, given the givens...

Thank you. You really are a good soul. I respect the things you say and hope I can be as strong as you have been.

[rickb89]

The ebbs and flows of DB'ing:

This past Friday I felt so close to giving up on this DB'ing, feeling like it can be so one sided and so unrewarding.

Friday night two of my sons and their girlfriends and me were watching the movie Donnie Darko and were having a good time. My W cut through the room on her way to the room she has been living in. She said she was exhausted, going to bed. She gave each person there a hug and said she loved them, completely not acknowledging me on her way upstairs. I was very hurt by this. My son's fiance gave me a look like wow that [censored], but I did not acknowledge this to anyone and the night went on happily. A minor DB victory.

Later I went upstairs to read and as I passed by her room she was talking very loudly on the phone to the OM. I quickly moved on, purposely not listening in and went to read. I really wanted to eavesdrop but did not. Another DB victory for me.

I woke up feeling like I understand perfectly well why I need to detach, and GAL and that while I have been doing it, the detaching part is very hard because of how painful it is on a moment to moment basis. It makes good sense in theory but is really awful to live the excruciating little details of it.

Anyhow, I was thinking how unfair, and one sided DB'ing can be and was contemplating that maybe a physical separation is an answer. But then I would think about my friends on this blog who are living in separate residences and would kill for an opportunity like mine (living together but separate bedrooms).

I started thinking about how maybe I need to refocus my life on what service I can be to others, and not have it be so much about what I want for me. I started thinking about whether I can enact this concept with my W. Can I take the focus off me and what I want and try to be completelty supportive of what she is going through?

With that in mind on Saturday, my W started opening up about her pschyciatrist and therapy. How he feels she never progressed beyond age eight which is when her father died. So here you have a girl who was molested horribly before that, and then the true love of her life dies. I knew this about her all along but for her to speak of this openly and know that her whole life beyond that was impacted so severly is a big deal. She pointed out one by one the areas where stagnated in her life and did not mature. The more I can leave the door open for her return to the M and family, the more I can evolve so that she feels safe with me, the more time I give her, the more chance we have of evolving to a better marriage.

That afternoon I had a chance to GAL and detach. I went to a homecoming for my friend's son home from the war. Knowing that my W may see this through her eyes as something threatening (a lifelong issue of trust for her) I went anyway. Knowing that she might misinterpet things and by her fears move further away from me is tough, when DB'ing calls for detachment and GAL, but I did it anyway and had a good time.

Later when I met up with my W to go Xmas shopping she didn't ask anything about whether or not I had a good time, didn't even mention it. I felt slighted by this because all our talk is about her and her life and she never even asks anything about my life or my day to day. It's so obscenely one-sided but I do realize she is at a place where she needs to unravel her own life, focus completely on it, face her issues and learn to live beyond them. So here is my chance for unconditional support of a fellow human, all the more harder to do because I really want to share my life with her too.

So we go shopping and she is as cold as ice, it's so awfully uncomfortable for me and all I can think is I want to dive out of the car and run for the hills. I'd see all these happy couples around me shopping together and I was so hurt. My mind would run to thoughts that my W would rather be doing this with the OM, and that her phone is constantly getting incoming text messages and I have no clue who it is. Then I think about my good friend Kelli and maybe I should just call her and tell her okay, I'm in and let's give it a shot together. I'm walking around these stores and feeling all of this. I keep hearing these bits of DB wisdom from you guys and I'm managing not to puke, not to break down, not to run, not to let the boogeyman overwhelm me, not to run to a new relationship, to be above it all, to let my W have this time, to be willing to endire all of this pain for her and for her alone should we never R. Suprisingly, as the night moved on it became better and better. We just started connecting as we bought our boys presents, have a great time buying gifts, laughing at the gag gifts, really enjoying dinner together, you name it. The night somehbow became magical for us. When we got home the usual army of teens and twenty somethings were there and one of my sones ha d made his own pizza crrations for the two of us which we shared together.

On Sunday, my W was so connected to our house which she hasnlt been for months - doing projects, cleaning, happy, etc. She is very into art and photography and especially so as she goes through her therapy. She has created this wall fixture with a wooden window blind in which she had inserted a number of postcards which she had collected over years. She told me that she realized that the content and subject matter are truly an expression of where she is as a person and through it can see that she really had stayed at an age eight emotional level.

She asked me to evaluate it all and tell her what I make of it in terms of who she is. It was really very interesting to do this. I took my time and saw so may aspects of her personality in this work of art. Doing this really opened up the discussion of her past, how it has made her what she is, how it was reflected in our M, how I responded to it, etc. A really great deep, honest, open discussion. One thing I told her was that I see that she has always been so horribly afraid of loss, going back to her dad's death, that she has never really opened up to letting in it. That doing that really does mean that you have to accept real hurt along with it because we are all going to die someday but so what, leap off the cliff and just let it in along with the risk. She's always peeped out of her emotional shell for certain things, like raising her sons, but has always ran back to her shell when fear was there. She told me that her Mom had told her the exact same thing, word for word that morning.

She expressed her concern that her boys don't love her anymore. I let her talk it all out, just listened. She asked me why when they had issue growing up she was there for them, but now that she's going through this why aren't they there for her? I told her that this issue was different than those because there were intitial circumstances in this that sent a very new message, that the M and family was going to be very different going forward, but that the boys love her and time has worked for us in this. Months ago it was a disaster for everyone, and that this was impossible for her to go through in a vacuum. It affected everyone, but nonetheless her we are still intact as a family. We could have gone down for the count but everyone has learned so much from this.

She was really asking for my input and it was a nice oppurtuinity to focus on the positives, at least as I perceived them. All in all the day was so nice and even had her talking about our family vacation next year and mybe needing our passports to go out of country.

Later that night she went food shopping and Xmas shopping. When she got home there was about 15 people at the bonfire in our back yard - sons, girlfriends and friends. When she got home however they were all in the kitchen because we were all making food. And she seemed so at ease with them, and not like as has been the case since the bomb dropped. It was very refreshing. The herd of them moved outside to the bonfire but my W felt that bacause she had arrived, they all went outside to avoid her. I listened to her concern and she seemed to be waiting for a answer so I said that really it's just a coincidence, they ate and are just heading back to the bonfire and to continue their swordfighting tournament. She seemed to accept that and nthen suprisingly hung around to watch football with me.

I've got to be so carful here because try as I might to detach, I really do have my emotions tied to her emotions which given the circumdtances are all oveer the place. I am really getting better at GAL, listening to her, learning from my mistakes and bettering myself.

Another weird thing is that she seems to want me to hug her in the morning which, given the separate rooms and bomb influenced celibate lifestyle is at least some contact. So, I hug her and she just accepts it, doesn't put her arms around me though, just accepts it from me. She just kind of stands there until I figure it out and hug her then she goes off to do her things. And it's not every day. Her mood swings are enormous. So are mine in this but I keep it bottled up so that she only see's the supportive me.

I'll just keep DB'ing, praying and dealing with my emotions throught out this.

[rickb89]

I'm having a DB crisis and looking for input:

I am really doubting that DB'ing works.

I mean, you examine yourself and see where you contributed to the M problems, you decide to learn from it and become a better person. You GAL and detach. You give the WAS time and quiet support. That's what the LBS does.

What does the WAS spouse do? It seems to me that they want time and understanding. During this time, everything becomes about them, all conversation is one sided, you get no affection, no consideration for your daily life or how you might be feeling. You get to watch your WAS put all their efforts into a life without you, you get to be exposed to their EA and/or PA. You get discarded, shat on constantly, and you have to perfectly understand their needs and walk on eggshells but they can say and do anything without any sense of the selfishness of it. You try to understand where they are and help create an environment for them to heal and they could care less about yours. You hear endless revisionistic versions of your life with them, that always paint you in a dark light. You support your family without their help and in fact in spite of it. You do your best to empathize, you provide encouragement where you can, and you get nothing in return. They refuse to work on the R at all, while you will do anything to better it.

Yeah, I'm bitchin about this. I'm typing this at the dining room table while my wife is upstairs on the phone with the OM.

Somebody tell me, help me out. How can DB'ing work at all? I feel like I'm just enabling my W to be more self centered, more able to have her cake and eat it to.

When you are tearing yourself apart in self evaluation, working so honestly to improve, and provising support and you have so much pain from your S, how does this work?

Really, can this work for people? Why would a spouse who has run away, and is so one sided reverse and see that their M is worth saving? It seems like the better person you become, the more supportive and understanding you become, the less the WAS cares.

[adinva]

DB is about doing what works and not doing what doesn't. I don't think there's anything in db about perfectly understanding their needs and walking on eggshells. You might need to try something different than what you've been doing. Or you may need to detach more so that you can accept your situation and work within it rather than railing against what it is not.

Am not unsympathetic, but if you define db "working" as db making your wife start working on your relationship, that's not the stated goal of db.

[labug]

{rick89}, this is so hard and it does seem that at times we are da%ned if we do, da^ned if we don't. I've been grappling with similar questions all week with little sleep and lots of mental torment. This morning I've finally come to the realization that I'm trying mentally to control the outcome of this, and I can't. I just can't.

I read just a few minutes ago that swinging from one extreme behavior to another is normal as people change. We are seeking balance and we have to trust that we will find it, maybe just not today.

I can't say it any better than Ad: "detach more so that you can accept your situation and work within it rather than railing against what it is not."