Walking, I have been thinking about your post. Are we pack animals or herd or group animals?
I think we are interdependent, and need company - most of us are not naturally solitary, but most humans require time and space to grow and develop. It is this conflict between wanting space and wanting security. Other humans can be threatening and dangerous to us, as well as supportive and comforting. So can the environment
And perhaps that is what the poem is expressing. Our need to be alone and find ourself, and the joy and fulfillment that can bring, as well as the risks out there, and the loneliness.
Thank you for starting this thread. It reaffirms that even though all our MLCers are different there are common themes that seem to run through them all.
The way you describe your XH is the way I'm beginning to think of mine, right down to the way he relates to the children. H has not been one to share any deep feelings very often, preferring to stuff them down. The only conversations he has with our children now are superficial. When one approaches something that's uncomfortable for him he immediately shuts them down and changes the subject.
S24 hasn't spoken to his Dad since he left over 2 years ago. S's anger at his father is still very evident. Even though S's R or non R with his Dad is not my issue to deal with, it is one of my biggest fears that at some point it will be too late for them to ever reconnect on any level.
I don't know what a R would be like for them anyway as the other children report that they feel that H spending time with them seems to be more out of obligation than any real desire to be with them. I pray for the children's sakes that as H travels the tunnel that this changes and he'll want to spend time with them.
It appears that H is still firmly seated aboard the crazy train. He is definitely a different man than the one who I used to know. He used to be proud of his family and his ability to provide for us. It seems he now views us as an albatross around his neck, even after tossing the majority of the financial responsibility on me.
"Out of sight, out of mind" seems to fit H to a tee.
The sad thing, in a way, is that it all seems to matter less and less to the children and to us as times goes by. It is our salvation too, but it is sad that we no longer care as much.
My eldest son refused to speak to his father for the longest time - way past two years. My xh now desperately wants, on one level, to have his children in his life again [after pretty much ignoring their existence for years] but only on the basis that everyone plays 'let's pretend that there is nothing the matter with the situation'. that is, there is no sense of 'I screwed up on this, and let's try and put things right'.
So rather than argue they dutifully shuffle along to see him from time to time, have a meal, or go to the theatre, and they tell me one thing [they are doing it because afer all he is their father] and he says another - that everything is pretty much OK, and just as he predicted they would come around.
It is a duty for them, and a need for him, I think, at this stage. But really who knows, and if you think too much about them, as i have said, you get sucked back alongside the crazy train. Been there and done that.
The children and I are going to be OK, and that has been my main concern. It has been very very hairy at times, and my youngest nearly got killed in a reckless accident, which I believe was caused in large part by his misery and partly by normal stupid young adult behaviour - can't blame it all on his father! but he is OK now.
"Out of sight, out of mind" seems to fit H to a tee.
That certainly is the feeling I have about my H. "If I just sit over here out of the fray of family like and act like everything is OK, it will be."
And he did that for the last couple of years we were together. He felt I was overreacting much of the time. And I probably was, but it was in response to his non-reaction. I now know that I can't blame my actions on him but it sure makes it difficult to be in a relationship, which should be based on relating, with a person who is only there in body.
Me 57/H 58 M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13
Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do. I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering. Caroline Myss
The common theme for them is to break free, leave all of what they had behind. They, in their own way, believe that we will be right where they left us when the boarded the mother ship. Unfortunately, the world will not stand still for such things. Children grow up and we learn to move on the best we can. Unfortunately, the mlcer hasn't grown and has remained stuck in wonderland.
The words "let's be friends" only means that when they are open to clarity and want to connect w/you, it is on their terms and when they get that "fix" they then disappear again. The same applies to the children. It's only when they move further along the path do they begin to want some connection w/those the left behind...but the sweeping under the rug will not happen. Why? Because the children and spouses where is the same movie and know that nothing can change the past, except to own up to the mistakes and find a way to repair the damage. Many of them can't or won't do the necessary work and unfortunately, in some cases people have moved on completely.
I do believe that they all know at some point just how much damage they have created, but don't know how to fix it or are too proud to admit they screwed up. Just my two cents on all of this.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
Snodderly, I believe that you are right that either at some point, or some level of their thinking they come to know the damage they have caused. I don't think this is the case at the outset. But I totally agree that pride is a big part of their remaining stuck. The sort of pride that also prevents them from asking for the help that they need.
They have spent such a long time trying to convince themselves and anyone else who will listen that they are right, and the world is wrong, that if and when it begins to dawn on them that their world is far from OK, they dive behind the mask.
Masks are a big part of MLC. Hiding and pretending. But sadly they are too old for this game.
I agree that this thread should be stickied as it is very helpful as a reminder to all of us that a majority of the problems are the MLC's issues and not necessarily our own.
One thing I would like to point out though is that IMHO, OUR pride also is a big part of remaining stuck. I am realizing at least for me it is. I am slowly learning that the woman that I knew is basically dead and that I have to bury her and move on.
I also see the Taoist philosophy ( you have to let go, in order to gain)in these threads, which are now making sense.
When I met W, I wanted nothing to do with women because I had been burnt hard before. When I wasn't looking for it she came under my radar. I do not regret the relationship no matter how much it hurts now, because I have always been greatful for what life gives me good and bad, because i try to learn from it.
Anywho, that is my 2 cents. Thanks for the great thread!
M:35 W:33 M: 5 yrs. Daughter: 2 yr .7/11/10 D Final: 8/7/12
Hi everyone, This is the most wonderful thread and really something that's very much needed. Not just any time of the year, but yes with Christmas here and all the extra emotions that can surface.
Everything said here is so true and it's helping me through a difficult time of head spinning, spew, and threats to not pay child support with stbx.
If it werent for the support and posts here, I don't think I'd be where I am in regards to a much better level of detatchment and self esteem consistently getting stronger each day.
It still amazes me as to where the MLCers mind is through this. How they really do expect us to just remain exactly where they left us when they boarded crazy train and mother ship...only to find when they stop in once in a while that we're not there anymore. Then claim no responsibility or accountability for their actions and place all blame on us.
Great thread! Im reading daily for encouragment and peace of mind!
Beatrice, your words are so close to what I have found with my H. I posted this on Newcomers in the form of a letter to H I would never post.
You've made the decision not to see me, not to talk face-to-face, not to talk on the phone but to communicate only through email. I understand that you're detaching from me, your version of NC. But I think there is also fear involved because in looking at me and knowing what I've dealt with in the months since you left, you would also have to look at yourself and that scares you, alot.
But here's the crux, without looking deep within, you will never change. And maybe you don't want to, perhaps you are truly happy. But I know you, and I know you are a very stubborn man who doesn't know how to back off from a position once taken. That rigidity robs you of such a deeper happiness, a happiness that I am just now beginning to experience. But we each get to choose the path we walk.
Me 57/H 58 M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13
Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do. I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering. Caroline Myss
Rigidity is often a sign of a damaged personality. I suspect it may come from fear.
Most often the MLcer is not prepared to look within, and so goes on, damaged and damaging to others. not just us and their children, but to others they come into contact with. Their conduct is not restricted to how they treat us. Most people who have what I call long term MLCers, report that their strangeness is gradually noted by others - co-workers, friends, old ad new, and even the MLCer's family may eventually come to question if all is well. I say may. Some families are either so dysfunctional themselves, or so 'loyal' that they refuse to admit it, even if they see it.
So, this thread is really about learning true detachment, recognising they are the crazy train, and there is nothing we can do, except stay well clear of it whenever it thunders in our direction. An occasional wave and smile does no harm, I guess!
