The not so Waste Land

[25yearsmlc]

okay Harrier, I found your thread!

Long time coming update.

I have been active in the newcomer's forum. Dispensing advice.

Things are much the same to my chagrin.

Recap: I moved out on 9/1/11 (or so) as part of an agreement with my wife. Since then we've been living apart, but we have dinner @ least 2X week as a family and I usually stay the whole weekend @ our house. the first month was good, a lot of growth positive feelings on both ends. Second month -- not so much. Third month - again not so much.


are you concerned that this^^^ means the more you are apart, the easier it is for HER to detach? Even if it's true, you also say that when YOU seem alright with parting for good, she backtracks.

That says something to me. Pay attention to that.

For various reasons we didn't see our MC from Oct. 9 to Dec. 8.

Our last session on Dec. 8 was a little rough b/c we were bringing things to the surface that had been percolating for 2 months. Opened some old wounds I think.

more and more I want to tell people to "ONLY" See a DB type of mc. Most of the c's we saw, focussed on our past and how we got there.

Some of that must be addressed, but a lot of it seems counter productive.

Harrier, I was reading my journal from 05-06 to write a re-cap of my sitch and found myself getting very depressed and angry all over again.

I am not sure what it means but I'm seeing our former (DB like) MC tomorrow. Don't get me wrong; I don't feel like divorcing. But it sure showed me how little value the "historical reviews" have. In some ways I felt good to have made such progress but in other ways it just tore open some scabs...

so, fwiw I think there are MC's who inadvertently hurt the cause. That's why the simple but radical DB approach is so useful--focus on what HELPS the marriage and do less or none of what hurts it...

maybe that ought to include "marriage history tests".



Mainly my W is not ready to have me move back. I was crushed and lashed out a little. Our MC suggested we needed to communicate our feelings a little more with each. Funny for us because a lot of people here thought we talked too much this summer.

Saturday night, my W initiates an R talk based on the MC recommendations. It was rough.

The pertinent points. (DBed the cr@p out of the talk)

1. She really has a lot of anger @ me for my bad 10 months in 2010. She also is made @ me for "snooping" on her for years. she never felt like she had any privacy and basically gave that up.

2. She doesn't know if she can get over that.


b/c she does not know how to get over that. Forgiveness is a learned skill your mc isn't teaching her.

I hope you two can go to Retrovaille Harrier. I really do think it would help. Retrovaille itself won't "pressure" her but I don't know how you get her there.

3. She is emotionally exhausted from all this.

4. She doesn't know if she wants to go back to our MC because he dredges up stuff. Same with an IC.


she has a point! I see this as good b/c it means she's not looking for the MC to validate her choice to leave or using it as a bash Harrier spot. Or do you see it differently?


5. She needs more time to process everything.

6. She feels like I'm pressuring her to move back in & to some extent our MC is as well.

so, stop doing that. Remember when SHE backtracks? Detach - and let her come to you. Seriously...


7. As stated, she isn't ready to have me move back in because she feels some anxiety when I'm there. She is trying to work on this by having me around as much as she does. This have improved, but not enough to have me back.


keep your 180s, your positive changes and say NOTHING ABOUT MOVING BACK IN...in fact, here's an idea (it's a free idea so you are free to ignore it) but

try to act as if you assume you won't be home for a long time "if ever" and make some plans for the distant future that imply this. See what happens...
Let me know if you see a downside to this b/c at the moment, I can't.


8. If I told her she had to make a decision, it would be divorce. (Of course she gets very mad, if I suggest this.)

gee, ^^^^that's interesting... no I don't want you to say the D word, but start acting as if you know YOU will be fine no matter what and that you are resigning yourself to her unfortunate choice (as in, unfortunate for HER, not so much you). Make sense?


9. She told me a really shitty thing the OM did, but it helps explain some things. In the height if the EA (W had a 3-4m EA), I accidentally called OMs number once. I also went to his office once when she was dropping off something for him (Their printed emails). I was checking up on her and she saw me in the hallway outside is offices.
I had no idea he was there and neither did my W. But he heard me in the hallway.

So the guy freaks out a little. Starts to get concerned that I'm crazy and going to do something. My W calmed him down, but he told his good friend about it; who happens to be my W's other really close mentor. I'm pretty sure he omitted why I might be peeved at him. So I look like the crazy, jealous husband (at the time I was, but I thought I had a good reason )

wth? Too much drama my friend...too wacky. Be the normal guy. And if he's so big, why so scared? He's worthless...a coward and a cheat and he "forgot" to mention the affair he wanted to have that might give cause to your behavior? Don't assume the mentor is clueless...he may be, but he may not be.


But as much as I wanted to confront this guy and tell his wife about his actions, I didn't come close to it. Per the board and my own ideas about things. Plus the guy is way bigger than me.

Plus I'll stab you in the eye with a stick...

But it creates a weird situation at work for her the she has to navigate.

NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT THIS NOW, SO LET IT GO...

fwiw, that "letting go of what you cannot control" is a major life skill we all need to be happy.

Learn it now and have a better life. I'd say the same to your w if she were here...


10. My W acknowledged my changes. She said that since I have stopped snooping she is trusting me a lot more in that regard. and that trust helps build some of her old feelings for me. But she still wonders if they are to save the M although she thought they weren't fully to save the M.

consistent change + sufficient time = her believing the changes are real AND lasting...

but if you stop asking her if she notices them, I suspect they'll look less like tactics to get her back and more like real changes. Don't highlight them for her


11. She told me the one thing I could do was back off about moving back in.

so, here's a wild guess from me....I think it means you should BACK OFF...for real.


12. During one really emotional part of the talk, my W was talking about her EA. She looked me straight in the eye and said "I am so sorry." I just said thank you for saying that. I have made it a personal point to never bring it the EA in a fight or R talk.

she said it, she meant it, let it go. You got to hear what most LBSers won't ever hear. Accept it. She saw it and regretted it and apologized for it without blaming you for it. Praise God!!

13. She offered to move out - for numerous reason. Which I think is a actually a good idea.

meaning to switch places? Not a bad idea at all....are you worried she'll have too much freedom and might find an OM? She could do that anyhow, and this way the kids won't be around it....besides, it's Better to learn that now. (NO I don't think that is her reason but wanted to head you off at the pass if you were going there...)

During the talk there were a lot of points where I had to force myself to be quiet. I remembered all the things about how women don't necessarily want their Hs to "fix" things. I did a lot of listen and just validating.

YAY!!!...she'll ask for advice is she wants it. Let her vent and be heard. Did you know men interrupt women 6 times more often than women interrupt men?

For example. She said that maybe it would be easier to just get divorced because she could just step away from the situation. I said that "I don't want that, but I understand how you would feel that" Right after the words left my mouth she immediately back track on what she just said.

see my earlier comments

It wasn't a total DB effort. She was talking about how she was worried that I might get jealous again and said that her EA was really the first time she worked with man and She didn't know how I'd behave when she went to work with another man. (I gently pointed out that with the exception of one job after she graduate - she has been working with men exclusively for about 10 years.) But after that I went back into the mode and said "I could see how you might feel that way."

you are human and besides, sometimes they do need a tiny dose of reality therapy...how did she handle that comment? Best case scenario (that's realistic) is that she heard you and will ponder it...

so the talk winds down and she said she's going to bed. She leaves the room. Then comes back and says this "I want you to not try to read too much into the stuff I said or be worried I'm am just at my really depressed and pessimistic right now."


that's a big thing for her to say. Means she is aware of how mercurial she is behaving and that she knows she has mood swings. Do as she suggests and don't freak.


Sunday- we had a fabulous day with the family. Got the tree, made cookies. My W had to go into work to get some stuff---

So that's it. I'm sure there is stuff I've omitted.

Check out Retrovaille online and see what you think and the comments I posted somewhere else today about it.

She does not know how to let go of the past. And neither did I. It's huge.

I think it's also key to 90% of those who end up happy after a big crisis.

The rest are probably spiritually more evolved than me, but mostly I think learning to let go of injustices done to us, real and imagined, is a hard thing to do. Especially when we are "right" to be hurt.

My h did some things that I believe, "objectively", were pretty selfish. Even in retrospect when I see his side of things, there's no way to describe some of his choices another way. My point is, okay, he was selfish...So then what?

Does that mean I MUST leave the m? See, we all have flaws. Not all of them go away...

what can you live with and what must you let go of? Same for her. And of course counting your blessings helps.

At Retrovaille you will hear couples who had MUCH worse things in their m's going on and yet found their way back to good strong marriages.

puts it all in perspective.

((( )))