Never thought I'd be here......part 2

[workinghardguy]

what does it take for a WAS to say "maybe I'm off base in wanting a D"?

I think, especially for the WAW, you're asking the wrong question. The D is just the legal output of what they have already done inside themselves, and that is divorce themselves from the M.

IMO, the question really is, "what does it take for the WAW to question the decision to leave?"

I think the answer is complex. First, the WAW has to see someone they would want to be married to. The challenge there of course is that we are not that person. We were once, but somewhere that stopped being true. And even if we become the person they would want to be married to, we have baggage. Years and years of baggage that they have to look past in order to see us anew. This is where the time and sustained changes comes into play.

Second, I think they have to see that life post-D is not as rosy and beautiful as they crafted. That the alternative, trying the M, is worth it. There's risk there on their part. They've already tried the M route and feel they were wronged and hurt. So I imagine life post-D has to be similar. This is why I have to imagine split-ups where kids aren't involved have such a hard time reconciling. I like to think that one of the sources of cognitive dissonance for my W is to see the R between the kids and I, and then to watch the damage she is going to do to that and to them as she goes on her path.

In my case my W, I believe, has this vision that it will be ok. She's already left one husband when she had kids. But those kids were 1 and 3, and she found a replacement dad almost right away (me). I believe things will be very different this time. Her kids are 8 and 10 and have relationships, feelings, and are far more developed. They will have anger and will direct as they see fit. And our son is also old enough and has a great relationship with me, and it will be clear to her that he is hurting and that she chose to cause that hurt. Will create enough dissonance in her head? I don't know. And even if it does, I don't know that her return will be what I want.

[Mach1]

"Why do you think that compromise in your relationship , made you less than perfect?"

I didn't think that compromise in and of itself made me less than perfect. If I am being honest, I guess I felt that accepting something (doesn't matter what) that didn't conform to what I thought it should be, something that was far from perfect, made me less than perfect. In reality, nothing will ever be perfect. And as I said in a previous post - imperfections and "messes" are proof that there are people in your life that love you. That was the case for me anyway. My W's clothes tossed recklessly around the floor in our bedroom meant that she was THERE, that we were together and that she was living happily.

Sorry I haven't replied sooner.....


How do(would) you view this differently , if she came home today ?

What steps would you take to change this ? Either in you or her ?

Can you accept this from her ? And not out of loneliness, out of love ?

I see this ( in the past) , as that you loved her , but only if she didn't do these things .

What I would like to see from you, is for you to define exactly what "unconditional love" means to you.....

And, are you capable of GIVING that ?

What things are you willing to live with, and what things are deal-breakers for you ?

[rickb89]

I hear you loud and clear, antlers. The problem is I have not arrived at the point where I don't care if my M works out. Granted, I know that I will live either way - but from the depth of my living soul I am hopeful that it works out over time. I get the feeling that you almost need to detach to the point of ambivalence. I'm striving to get there, but since I still get shook up when I see her I probably am not there just yet.

Crimson

Crimson - I know you probably feel like you're walking through hell alone right now but you are not alone. Its does miraculously get easier, all the while not meaning that you don't love your W anymore, nor that there won't be moments of intense pain.

I woke up yesterday wanting to destroy the OM (I mean plumb nasty mean - Josey Wales). I meditated, thought through my DB plan, and prayed, and somehow got to a better place as the day went on. It actually ended up being a great day. Step by step my friend. You're getting stronger and evolving each moment. That's the gift (believe it or not) of this sitch.

I'm with you my friend!

[rickb89]

Thanks for the feedback and support, folks. I both need and appreciate it.

Here is the paradox of DB'ing that I am trying to embrace. Most of us are here because we are on the receiving end of a D or S and we WANT our spouse back. Yet, in order to meet this objective you need to stop thinking about your spouse and start focusing on yourself. It's like taking a left turn to eventually go right. Feels weird, but I am committed to it at this point.

WHAT IS RETROXAIILE? I KEEP HEARING THIS TERM!


yes yes yes^^^^!!!! BINGO!!!! You have to detach and prepare for life without them BUT with you being happy on your own


only to THEN find out that the WAS noticed you, and may start to come around...and then

THAT, imo, is when real piecing begins.

(If you can, is there a chance she'd attend Retrovaille with you? It's VERY useful.)

But yes indeed you must embrace this crazy paradox - and a bunch of ironies all combined in one...

TA DAH!!!! VOILA....

you are getting it...welcome to our world!


Rick89 - I was thinking the same thing. That is kinda how I am trying to live my life right now!

[rickb89]

25, don't mean to hijack thread, I see you have been giving some great advice. I was curious about Retrovaille and looked up some info on it. It all seems very interesting. At what point would you ask a WAS to try it, you say maybe piecing, but can it be used before it? It seems funny, other people on the boards talk about signs on not quitting, but when I looked at the website, I sort of got a sign. Earlier in the night I had prayed and asked God for a sign on what would be best for W and S to be happy, and when looking at the website for Retrovaille it mentioned the patron saint is St. Joseph. Well being raised catholic I chose St. Joseph as my patron Saint for confirmation and was born on St. Josephs day (March 19th). Could be a few silly coincidences, but hey you never know. I saw there is one in my area January 20th. Would this be too soon? How do you exactly ask a WAS to attend something like this?

CO1978 - believe in the signs. Here's one that happened to me Monday. I was with a friend talking business and during it I asked him how his W is doing with her breast cancer. He updated me and told me that his W has been a WAW for a few years. I didn't know this and he didn't know about mine. We spoke for hours and I brought up the topic that I'm not sure I could be as evolved as he (turn the other cheek) in forgiving the OM and we discussed my feelings that I could not stop myself from kicking this guys' butt if I saw him. My friend's answers were so evolved, insightful and helpful concerning forgiveness and understanding of both my W and the OM, and eventually we ended up outside talking on the sidewalk. Then I heard someone walking down the walk towards us and it was like an old western where I could hear spurs. Lo and behold it was the OM my friend's wife cheated with and they had a very cordial discussion. This could not have happened at a more opportune time.

Then, I get into my vehicle and there is a sweet text from my WAW telling me she loved the flowers I had bought here recently, an out of the blue, unexpected show of being connected.

Signs? Divine intervention? Has to be.

I think the stronger we allow oursleves to be, and when we take the higher path we are more likely to be in tune with the spirit world. Not easy but has to be done!

Good luck to you.

[labug]

I think that the walkaways act on pure external gratification. They don't want to do the hard work to look at themselves and their role in the demise of the R but think instead, "If I change house, car, partner, my life will be better."

We have the gift of being able to look inside and change, difficult and painful as it is. I'm sure we've all heard the phrase, "No matter where you go, there you are." Without doing the hard work the WA will have the same problems in the new house, new relationship.

We can decide to change or stay the same.

[Crimson]

So I had to text W this morning to fill her in on the baby since I dropped him off at the babysitter's and she will be picking him up and taking him to her place. (Still sounds weird to say that). I tried to be positive and upbeat (large cup of coffee probably helped). I said "someone is going to be excited to see mommy tonight!" - and went on to explain his diaper rash and a little nose bleed he had. She said she couldn't wait to see him and asked a question or two about how I was handling certain aspects of feeding him. I told her a quick story about the baby talking about the dog (possibly his first un-coached sentence) and that opened the door to a few texts about what we have been experiencing as he approaches the "terrible twos". After exchanging stories, she texted "He hard-headed....hmmmmmmm" - I said yeah, must have come from his mother (in a way that she knew I was joking). I immediately closed by saying "have a good day at the office". After that she texted "Is your dad OK?" - (he's recovering from colon cancer - when it rains, it pours - eh?). I didn't answer - but will later. She was sorta close with my dad.

It was a decent exchange - as most typically are when they center around our S. The fact that she even made the "hard-headed" joke is kind of nice - she hasn't shown ANY humor with me since the bomb dropped in September. Also nice that she asked about my dad - she hasn't done that in quite a few weeks (but asked when we were living apart under the same roof). I know all of this probably means nothing and I won't read too much into it- but at least it was a "decent", albeit brief, text session - and I made a point not to linger.

Crimson

[25yearsmlc]

Last thought - what does it take for a WAS to say "maybe I'm off base in wanting a D"?

usually, a CHANGED HUSBAND



You have to figure at this point they are tremendously vested in the process - retained a L, told family and friends, moved out, and so on. You have a lot of critical mass moving in one direction. If nothing else, pride could fuel the drive to the finish line. Maybe it just boils down to what's most important to them at the time.

[25yearsmlc]

I think that the walkaways act on pure external gratification.

some WASs are doing that^^^. But some have suffered for a long time with some pretty selfish LBSers. Then finally, unnoticed by the LBSer, the WAS just runs out of steam and lets go...

The challenge in either case for the lbser, is to look within and do THEIR OWN WORK and not keep blaming the WAS.

For one thing, sometimes the LBSer is more at fault than they first realized, and second, the blame game just doesn't help.

They don't want to do the hard work to look at themselves and their role in the demise of the R but think instead, "If I change house, car, partner, my life will be better."

We have the gift of being able to look inside and change, difficult and painful as it is. I'm sure we've all heard the phrase, "No matter where you go, there you are." Without doing the hard work the WA will have the same problems in the new house, new relationship.

We can decide to change or stay the same.

[25yearsmlc]

Don't mean to hijack but since many are asking, here...

RETROVAILLE

is a marriage retreat for couples in crisis (as opposed to marriage encounters that are more positively focussed on just getting a tune up).

Retrovaille means to "rediscover" and it began in Quebec. The Catholic Church started it but there are now interfaith retreats as well.

My h is not Catholic but when we went, the Retrovaille near us was being done on our anniversary weekend and I called to ask if there was a lot of Catholic dogma in it b/c I feared H would be turned off.

The folks at Retrovaille accurately said "no, you don't have to be Catholic to go" and they were right.

There were some prayers and mention of God and what marriage was intended to be, but H seemed fine with it. It did not feel "Catholic". Half those attending ours were not Catholic but I think most of them were Christian.

If you were not Christian and get turned off by "God Talk", then find the Retrovaille for interfaith marriages which may include agnostics.

My guess is that even though I never felt it was shoved down our throats, an atheist might be uncomfortable w/any religious connotations and Retrovaille does stress building a spiritual connection.


At ours, 4 couples were "Team" couples and they shared their stories with us. Each of them faced BAD BAD times in their past.

Their problems made ours pale in comparison (like having a child die, adultery, bankruptcy, etc)

yet these couples found their way back to each other.

(There was a retired priest there as well, sort of on the sidelines. He volunteered that if anyone felt harmed by the Church, he'd be willing to listen and address their grievances. I thought that was kind of brave).

You don't have to share in front of others, and for the most part, each couple/person does their own "homework" and then shares it with their spouse, usually.

There is a follow up program that's very useful...VERY..

but even just that weekend of Retrovaille, wherein you put your relationship as THE focus, and there is no blame assignments going on & forgiveness is demonstrated,

was profound for most of the couples.

Out of 25 couples at our retreat in 08, 22 are still married. Considering what brought them to Retrovaille (that their m's were crumbling)

that is a remarkable statistic.

Yes there's "work" to do in your marriage, and Retrovaille shows you how to do the work and that it's worth it.

I highly recommend it.