Never thought I'd be here......part 2

[Mach1]

I was filling a round hole with a square peg and calling it a perfect fit. I was wrong. I was selfish. I was stubborn. I was blind.

I think most of the people here could echo your words....

Some of the wisest words spoken here , were that we all did the best we could with the tools that we had in place for that particular time, and event.

Could we have all done better? Sure

Did we all know that we could have done better? Probably not.

Does that stop us from doing better in the future? It will if we don't recognize the patterns of behavior that caused us to go down that path, and kill the root of those issues.

Personally, I would rather not know and strive to learn, than to know and do nothing to change it.

Now that you know, you can never not know again.

I have spent so much time trying to examine what was/is wrong with her that I didn't really look at what I did to drive her away. How does a perfectionist admit that they were a less-than-ideal spouse? I was covering all of the bases that I thought mattered - and not covering the ones that mattered to her. I felt like I did improve her life - but probably just from a material standpoint - and not completely from a "true happiness" standpoint. I thought as long as there was a little blue box from Tiffany under the tree every Christmas that it would show her how much I loved her - when all she really wanted was for me to hold her hand and walk to the park with our son.

I am ashamed of myself that it had to come to this for me to have these realizations come into sharp focus when all I had to do was listen a little bit more. I can try to blame this all on depression and hormones - and maybe there is a component of that involved, but it doesn't take away from the fact that there were REAL ISSUES driving her actions - depression or not.

So now I am asking the experts on this board - how do I fix this within myself now that I am carrying this grief around? Sure, I want to bring my family back - but I want to be BETTER first. I want her to believe that I am better and want to be back together - I just don't know how to get there from here.

The drive to make better choices and decisions is what will help you be successful.

Once you have identified the root of this, then you MUST be able to forgive....

And when I say forgive, I mean to forgive yourself for your actions. Remember that none of what you did, was malicious or with intent to harm your spouse.

Forgiveness is a gift that you give yourself, because I can assure you that your spouse isn't interested in hearing that from you right now.


I have but one question to start you on your path.....

You have listed the things you have identified as deficient behavioral patterns.....



Why were you like that ?.

[antlers]

I am ashamed of myself that it had to come to this for me to have these realizations come into sharp focus when all I had to do was listen a little bit more.

So now I am asking the experts on this board - how do I fix this within myself now that I am carrying this grief around?

I am not beating myself up here - just trying to be as honest as possible.

It's a shame that we sometimes have to lose the things that are the most dear to us in order for us to see what pricks we've been. I can empathize with nearly everything you're saying here. And so can many others.

I believe that it's never too late to start doing what's right. That doesn't mean that things are going to work out for you. But this is how you fix it within yourself...you have true remorse, you apologize, you ask for forgiveness, you do everything you can to atone, then you take corrective action and make the changes within yourself that need to be made...no matter what. You ask for and accept God's forgiveness, and then you forgive yourself. And you start thinking about things differently, and doing things differently.

I completely understand the honest self-reflection...and I think that honesty is necessary for you to learn and grow. The key is to do these things because they need to be done...period...and not because you just want things to work out.

[adinva]

What I wouldn't give for my H to say the words you just said, Crimson.

[CO1978]

Pretty much everything you said there could be applied to my sitch. We are very much alike. I realized pretty much all of what was "wrong" with me the first few days she left. She kind of threw some of it in my face and it made me take a long good look at myself. I realized, Wow, this was mostly my fault. Seeing your faults is the first step of fixing them. I made a list of the things, like you did, and with my IC figured out a plan to correct them. I may or may not get a chance to show my W that I am a better person. I look over the list everyday and apply it whenever possible, to whoever possible. Its sad how we don't see the signs that are in front of our face. We all take the little things for granted, but those little things add up and take a toll. I said it once before and I will continue to say it, the book "The Four Agreements" by don Miguel Ruiz really changed me. I have to recomend that book to everyone. If you don't feel like reading the book here is a link to a summary of the book
http://www.humanpotentialunlimited.com/Summary-content.html

[25yearsmlc]

I have been putting a lot of thought into personal introspection these last few days. Naturally, it is difficult because I am finding that it forces you to lay down your defenses and look at your actions through the eyes of your spouse to a certain degree. When the bomb was dropped in September I spent SOOO much time focusing on what was wrong with W (hormones, depression, etc.) - it was a waste. That's not to say that there wasn't/isn't validity to it - but there is nothing I can do about it at all. It was most cheeseless of cheesless tunnels I could find. That said, defenses down - here's some of my introspection about how I landed here.

Well said. Among the most important realizations I had was that even though my h was "wrong" to make the choices he was making (to summarize- put himself above the rest of us, pursued something he knew wasn't good for me or the kids), MYbehavior did NOT help and may have hurt things.

AND that this^^^ realization is empowering b/c it means WE/YOU are not helpless.




--- Quote from the W on D day: "you're good at the big things - nice house, providing, finances - but you miss the little things and the little things matter!!". She would ask me to do certain things with her, like walk to the park with the baby and I would claim I was too tired because I just got back from work and just wanted to relax. She always asked me to rub her back and I only did it half the time - the other times I would just say "no" thinking that I was tired, trying to sleep or that she wouldn't do it for me if I asked.


Sounds as if her primary Love Language is Not "gifts" so much as quality time shared, words of affirmation or loving touches. Boy can I relate. Not to say we enjoy our birthdays or holidays being ignored, (you can't do that)

but a planned date, time touching (with or without sex following), a sincerely given compliment, on a daily basis, went a long way to heal my marriage.


I loved my wife the whole time, but I viewed marriage and fatherhood as responsibility - almost like a wagon that I had to pull.

a lot of men fall into this trap. They work hard at work, and think that the entitlements at work should spill over into family life b/c the payoff at work SEEMS to spill over (bigger house, nicer car)

but in reality the payoff at work, often comes at the expense of something at home, like TIME together, relaxed, unhurried time...and all the love that time together can produce...



I didn't look at it like I see it now - it's a blessing, a gift, something that needs to be selflessly tended to. With the view I had, it didn't leave a lot of room for sitting back and appreciating my wife for simply being her....for being my wife. It was made worse by the fact that I DO have perfectionist tendencies that drive me. Without intending to, I forced my wife to deal with them. My eye never goes to what's right first - it goes to what I perceive as being wrong first and I go to "fix-it" mode.


wow, you are so touching a chord! My h is an MD who works in the operating room. When he entered the home he'd immediately look around for "negatives" (as if he were in the operating room staring at monitors of a patient, looking for warning signs, problems or discrepancies. Most homes have discrepancies!!)

It felt stressful and the kids and I began to dread his coming home. They told me so.

The fact that he had his secret plans and was justifying them, contributed to the negatives but I certainly am glad you are seeing this. It took him a long time away from us to realize what he was losing and that the "patient was just fine, thanks".... You are a faster learned, perhaps b/c she left rather than you. But take what you learn no matter how you learn it, and remember it.

make sense?


Stepping outside of myself, I can see how someone else could grow tired of that over time. Eventually, she may have thought that I was doing the same to her - not seeing her pluses, but zeroing in on her minuses and trying to fix them. She has all but said that.


Then it is true, & she saw it that way clearly. And she wasn't "crazy" or "imbalanced" to see it that way. There in fact were reasons....but see that this is good b/c it means you do have some control here...


There were moments that if I had an idea in my head, I wouldn't budge if she had a different idea. For example - we have a loft area upstairs in our house. The first time I stepped into the place I INSTANTLY converted it into a small home theater in my head and started making plans. After the baby was born, she wanted to change it to a play area for him with a train table, and other things. I refused to budge - even though we have a big a$$ flat screen and surround sound downstairs. Selfish. No way around it. I wouldn't even give serious thought to making it a play area. A few weeks after she said she wanted a D, I bought a train table and put it in the room and left her a note that I was sorry for being selfigh. But by then it was too late, she was already sleeping in a different room and plotting her escape to her own place. There are other examples I could give of being selfish - but just know that I see it much more clearly now.


I know this^^^ is painful....but now you are awake. No more sleeping at the wheel...


We found a church that we both really liked. We would go every now and then - but then she started attending regularly. I didn't go with her. I chose to stay home, not because I had a problem with church but because "I have to be somewhere on time 5 days a week - I just want to enjoy down time on Sunday and not HAVE to be anywhere". I knew she wanted me to go - but I just ignored it. And yes, I would feel guilty - but I didn't change my actions. I put what I wanted above she wanted. Again, it's clear what I did wrong here and I regret it tremendously.


ouch...


I ignored her subtle suggestions of things she liked me to do for her. We would wake up on Saturday mornings and she would say "Would you make us breakfast?" - I would say no, or worse yet say nothing at all. I knew that she loved when I cooked for her or when we cooked together - I just didn't pay attention.



In moments, she would bravely confess that she suffered from low self esteem and I KNEW that she needed a lot of positive feedback from me. I never gave as much as I should. I felt that she had to learn to love and accept herself - or all of the compliments in the world from me would be of little to no help at all. Clearly there was an opportunity for me to make her feel better about herself and I did not take advantage of it. I let my beliefs override her needs. Looking back, I regret that more than I can say.


Not to twist the knife more, but is it also possible that it was self serving of you to say "all the compliments in the world from me would be of little help" b/c that also meant you did not have to make an effort there? You could justify your silence/withholding.

AND OR that you feared somehow it would shift the balance of power to compliment her "too much"?

Since you are looking inward, damn bravely I might add, I feel I can pose that.


I thought that as long as I was providing, giving her a good life and paying the bills that she would see me a a great husband.


I like men, but I fear that most think this^^^ way...or at least many do.

I hear it a lot around here on DB, "I was a good h, I never cheated or drank too much and we have a nice home."...like that's all there is.

A few hundred years ago that probably would have been enough b/c marriages were arranged for the upper class - and getting someone who didnt' treat you like a slave WAS great, and if you were poor, you were thrilled to have a roof over your head...


She was right - I missed all of the little things somehow. I missed all of the things that would have touched her soul because I felt that things that I was doing were already doing that. I was filling a round hole with a square peg and calling it a perfect fit. I was wrong. I was selfish. I was stubborn. I was blind.


Now you know much more about HER love languages, and you are awake. Stay awake. It will show, in time.

You must rearrange your view of time here. You are SO NEW TO THIS!!!



I have spent so much time trying to examine what was/is wrong with her that I didn't really look at what I did to drive her away. How does a perfectionist admit that they were a less-than-ideal spouse? I was covering all of the bases that I thought mattered - and not covering the ones that mattered to her. I felt like I did improve her life - but probably just from a material standpoint - and not completely from a "true happiness" standpoint. I thought as long as there was a little blue box from Tiffany under the tree every Christmas that it would show her how much I loved her - when all she really wanted was for me to hold her hand and walk to the park with our son.


then you DO know how, see?



I am ashamed of myself that it had to come to this for me to have these realizations come into sharp focus when all I had to do was listen a little bit more. I can try to blame this all on depression and hormones - and maybe there is a component of that involoved, but it doesn't take away from the fact that there were REAL ISSUES driving her actions - depression or not.


I wish I had a symbol for TRUMPETS BLARING here....wish other h's could read this...and get it.

Instead, I will post this little thingy and leave it at that...

So now I am asking the experts on this board - how do I fix this within myself now that I am carrying this grief around? Sure, I want to bring my family back - but I want to be BETTER first. I want her to believe that I am better and want to be back together - I just don't know how to get there from here.

I am not beating myself up here - just trying to be as honest as possible.

Crimson

as Mach said, forgiveness is a gift you give yourself.

That does not only apply to forgiving those who hurt you but to yourself when you hurt others and regret it,

and when you have created your own personal hell.

The more you learn to love and accept yourself, WHILE working to improve, the more you may be able to see others in your life that way too.

I think at some point we all need to see ourselves naked in the mirror (not necessarily literally, okay?)

but to see ourselves as we have truly been, warts and all, with our strengths and weaknesses, our greatnesses and our flaws

our quirks, our habits, our quality traits and our personality assets and our defects in character, and

if we are lucky the divine in us will accept us with love.

That is, we'll see ourselves through God's eyes. And if we allow it, we can learn to see our spouses through His eyes as well.

Maybe that's our real job as husbands and wives, to love as HE does.

[Crimson]

Adinva - what I wouldn't give for my W to be open to hearing those words from me.

CO1978 -- My aunt also reccommended that book to me. I downloaded it on my iPad a few days ago and will start reading this weekend perhaps.

"I have but one question to start you on your path.....You have listed the things you have identified as deficient behavioral patterns.....Why were you like that ?"

Mach1 - thank you for challenging me with that question. It is something that I otherwise would not have asked myself. Here goes....

Let me preface this by saying that I don't "blame" anyone for who or how I am. I will simply explain what my influences were and what has always been expected of me.

I was raised to not accept failure - ever - under any circumstances. I was literally told frequently that "failure is not an option" - neither was "partially done" or "almost". From the time I was old enough to remember, my dad always used to say this to me: "Once a job you've first begun, never leave it till it's done. Be it great or ever so small, do it right or not at all". Perfection, or the pursuit of it, was established as a criteria for success. From how well I did weekly chores to my performance in school - the expectation was perfection. Professionally and academically that has served me well. The side effects that it produced have not. As mentioned in previous post above, my eye ALWAYS goes straight to the imperfection in something with an intent to fix it. I literally have a physical reaction inside of me with I perceive something is "out of order" or wrong and I immediately try to fix it. It could be as simple as a picture hanging crooked or my closet being disorganized - I feel as though I have to make it perfect.

Soooo, how does that manifest in a relationship? Well, obviously the resulting OCD made my wife crazy - and she took it personally as if I was saying she failed to do something so now I have to do it. But more interestingly, it made me strive for this ideal of perfection as a spouse. Which, in and of itself, is noble - if and ONLY if you are pursuing that perfection as it has been defined by your spouse. In my case, I was seeking it as defined by my parents. Provide, protect....those were the big two from my father. Neatness and organization - those were the contributions from my mother. THOSE became my yard stick - and as long as I thought I was doing those (provide and protect especially) I thought I was avoiding be a failure as a father and husband. Why? Because the people that I got those marching orders from told be from birth that "failure was not an option".

So, if I put myself in my wife's shoes I can see the frustration when her set of criteria for being a good H is somewhat different. Remember - she said "you're good at the big things - but you are awful and the small things, and the small tihngs matter". She also probably felt that nothing she did measured up in my eyes. So I guess the concise answer to your question is that I had those behaviors because I thought that was how to not fail as a husband - to be perfect according to some set of criteria established by my family. They've been married 40 years - how could they be wrong, right? I thought I was a great husband because I did what I thought made a great husband....not what my wife thought made a great husband. Granted, she appreciated the things that I DID do - but it's like eating french fries without ketchup. You love the fries, but if you don't have the ketchup it isn't quite right...still good, but not "right". Well, I would guess that my W got tired of plain fries.

It's as if I was telling myself that I didn't need to make breakfast, walk in the park, or give up things I wanted because I was BEING a good husband. Selfish. Just selfish.

The irony is that in the pursuit of being a perfect husband, I was largely imperfect to my W over time. Over the last 3 months I have had nothing but time to contemplate these things and lament my mistakes. It all appears so clearly now - I know what I need (or needed) to do and I don't have the chance because my W reached her breaking point with me. Now I am in a nice, big empty house that is serving as a reminder that you can acheive all you want, but without someone to bring it to it is meaningless. I hope that life grants me a second chance with my family to be a better husband.

Crimson

[Mach1]

Crimson, thank you for your answer.

I want you to know too, that these answers are for you, and not so much for me.

I know how hard the answers come, and deeply personal they are.

My questions will be somewhat shorter : )



Why do you think that compromise in your relationship , made you less than perfect ?

[Accuray]

Crimson,

I also really identify with your feelings here and went through the same process in many ways. I re-read your initial posting to compare to your introspection which is an interesting exercise. I applaud the time you've been spending evaluating yourself as a result of this terrible experience -- that's the good that comes from it that we take forward with us no matter what happens. I know I've become a better person because of it.

I was selfish and didn't listen or pay attention to the small signs my W was sending.

I felt the same way. My IC pointed out that W wasn't being very clear in her communication, she was sending "small signs" and expecting me to mind read. That's not a realistic expectation. You can own part of this, but you can't own all of it. W was also responsible for being clear that she wasn't happy, and she wasn't until she got to the point that she gave up. Maybe you weren't receiving as well as you could have been, but W also could have been much more explicit that she was unhappy and needed something different from you.

My eye never goes to what's right first - it goes to what I perceive as being wrong first and I go to "fix-it" mode. Stepping outside of myself, I can see how someone else could grow tired of that over time. Eventually, she may have thought that I was doing the same to her - not seeing her pluses, but zeroing in on her minuses and trying to fix them. She has all but said that.

A lot of this is just your personality type versus something that's broken and needs to be fixed. You need to be aware of it and manage it, but you may not be able to change it. I recommend you take the Enneagram Riso-Hudson personality test. The full test is available here: http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/Tests_Battery.asp

It's $10 and takes 40 minutes. That will give you some insight into your natural tendancies. If you can determine your W's type, there is a page that talks about the dynamics of how the personality types interact, the common frictions, and how they can support and reinforce each other. I did that test and found it very useful in understanding what drives the behaviors you've described above.

I am a type 3, an "Achiever":

Basic Fear: Of being worthless
Basic Desire: To feel valuable and worthwhile

As an achiever, I strive to optimize. Although I never criticize my W or explicitly set expectations for her, just living with someone who is an achiever when you are not can be intimidating. Because you see the achiever constantly pushing themselves, the spouse can feel like they don't measure up by comparison, and can come to resent you for the fact that they don't feel good about themselves living in your shadow. That's the hard part, it's not what you're saying to them, doing to them, or expecting from them -- it's the assumptions they're making about how you feel about them based on how you talk and feel about most other things. My DB coach advised that I cannot "own" my W's feelings of inadequacy by comparison, those are hers to deal with. I DO, however, need to be sensitive to them, because I now understand the dynamic it creates.

My W had an affair with a "9" -- a Peacemaker, which undoubtedly gave her a break from dealing with someone who is always driving. My epiphany through this process has been to relax more, to be more accepting, and to be more conscious of my impact on my W and my family, even if I'm talking about something or doing something that doesn't involve them.

We found a church that we both really liked. We would go every now and then - but then she started attending regularly. I didn't go with her. I chose to stay home, not because I had a problem with church but because "I have to be somewhere on time 5 days a week - I just want to enjoy down time on Sunday and not HAVE to be anywhere". I knew she wanted me to go - but I just ignored it. And yes, I would feel guilty - but I didn't change my actions. I put what I wanted above she wanted. Again, it's clear what I did wrong here and I regret it tremendously.

Funny, same thing happened to me, although it was my W who found the church and started taking the kids without discussing it with me at all. I started going with her, but like you, I thought that I have to work 5 days a week and get Saturday and Sunday to get a ton of stuff done plus relax. If I do a 10:00 service followed by an 11:00 coffee hour, 25% of the weekend is taken by something I'm not passionate about. Since we've been piecing I started going again to support her interests. My IC said that if I don't enjoy it and get anything out of it, I should not go -- I should use the time to do something for me (GAL) because I'll feel better about everything and be more positive in all our other weekly interactions. I haven't taken that advice yet, I'm still going.

In moments, she would bravely confess that she suffered from low self esteem and I KNEW that she needed a lot of positive feedback from me. I never gave as much as I should. I felt that she had to learn to love and accept herself - or all of the compliments in the world from me would be of little to no help at all. Clearly there was an opportunity for me to make her feel better about herself and I did not take advantage of it. I let my beliefs override her needs. Looking back, I regret that more than I can say.

Ah yes, my first IC said "women like men who make them feel good about themselves". I don't know why that is unique to women -- I like a woman who makes me feel good about myself too! If you haven't yet read "The 5 Love Languages", do it immediately! Your W was telling you about her love language and you weren't picking up on it.

If you are also an "Achiever" personality type which I suspect you may be, there is also a tendency to think we know what's best for others, because we are so confident in our convictions. This is another thing to get over.

I thought as long as there was a little blue box from Tiffany under the tree every Christmas that it would show her how much I loved her - when all she really wanted was for me to hold her hand and walk to the park with our son.

Male tendency -- read "How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It" for more insight here. One of the things it says is that men often feel security and comfort just knowing their wife is home. They don't have to be in the same room or interacting with us -- just knowing they are there is enough. Therefore, we can feel that just providing and being present is adequate, when for women, it is not.

It is good that you recognize your role in all of this. Be aware, however, that the LBS will typically get to a place where they feel guilty and take responsibility for too much. A marriage is a 2-way street where you are both responsible for communicating and working on the union on an ongoing basis.

It does not look like you were overtly "mean" or abusive, or wilfully neglectful. Instead, your marriage fell victim to the same dynamics that many marriages fall victim to -- this happens every day over and over again. It's also well documented that after the birth of your first child is usually the low point in any marriage -- the hardest time for both of you. The best time is supposed to be when the kids graduate college or start a career and are out of the house.

It's probably the rare marriage that stays healthy and productive over the long haul. Most probably fall into various stages of decay, dysfunction and coping. It's usually only a crisis that brings things to a head and forces change. By going through this process, you have the ability to become an expert on what it takes to make a marriage successful, and hopefully you will get the opportunity to apply that knowledge. You also get the opportunity to do some introspection and personal growth that you otherwise would never be motivated to take on -- that's the silver lining.

"How to get there from here" for me was a combination of advice on this board, lots of reading, counseling from a DB coach, and sessions with an IC. Of all of those, the DB Coach and the independent reading were the most effective, and the board helped to reinforce what I was learning from both of those sources.

What has your reading list been Crimson? There's lots of great stuff out there, and other stuff that's either not that accessible, or not worth your time. I have read a TON of it.

Accuray

[Crimson]

25 - "It felt stressful and the kids and I began to dread his coming home. They told me so." Another line that she threw at me on D day was that she felt a sick feeling in the pit of her stomach whenever she heard the garage door go up when I got home. After the introspection, I guess I can see why.

"AND OR that you feared somehow it would shift the balance of power to compliment her "too much"?" I always felt if I complimented her too much she would start believing I was doing it out of habit and not sincerity. What did I know?

"I hear it a lot around here on DB, "I was a good h, I never cheated or drank too much and we have a nice home."...like that's all there is." Funny, I said those exact same things to my friends - no cheating, no abuse, no drinking, no strip clubs....etc. - how could she want to leave. In hindsight, if those are the bars I set for success in my marriage they're pretty pathetic.

I am awake now, 25 - after this brutal punch in the mouth. And not what I am awake, I CAN'T fall back asleep. The problem is, now sure as hell isn't the time to share these realizations with my W. She does not want to hear from me - and all I want to do it tell her everything that I just posted here. I want to tell her where I fouled up and that I want to make things right with her and have her and my son back in my life once again. If I am going to get there, it is going to take a long time. Right now, I am the enemy - and I don't see how I am going to get out of that role anytime soon.

Now that I have taken everything that she has said to me to heart, and stopped trying to defend myself or explain her - I am trying to forgive myself. I just hope that the day will come when she will forgive me and realize that the errors I made were not out of a lack of love or respect - just general "not knowing" and having to find my way the hard way. She is by no means perfect, either and it really does take two. The ONLY time she uttered a phrase to me that held her accountable in this was the one time she said "I could have communicated better with you". Probably, but I can't do her introspection for her - I can only hope that she is doing hers on her own these days. I am really just trying to focus on the things that I can fix or make better in me right now.

I derive some degree of comfort from the fact that this appears to be something that happens to couples a lot. So I am not alone in my errors.

Mach1 - "Why do you think that compromise in your relationship , made you less than perfect?" I didn't think that compromise in and of itself made me less than perfect. If I am being honest, I guess I felt that accepting something (doesn't matter what) that didn't conform to what I thought it should be, something that was far from perfect, made me less than perfect. In reality, nothing will ever be perfect. And as I said in a previous post - imperfections and "messes" are proof that there are people in your life that love you. That was the case for me anyway. My W's clothes tossed recklessly around the floor in our bedroom meant that she was THERE, that we were together and that she was living happily.

Accuray - mostly I have been reading DR (And re-reading sections). I have also been reading a book on understanding depression. Again, not to say that that is WHY my W left - but I know that it factors into her perception of how I did (or did not) do things - so I am just trying to understand better.

In related news, holy crap I miss my son so much right now. Won't see him again till Sunday night.

Crimson

[Crimson]

.....the question that is haunting me right now is now that I see where I made wrong turns, wrong choices - how do I get my wife to understand where I am? Not just how, but WHEN? If ever?

I am offically dim/LRT right now. I don't initiate contact and I don't over-do it when she contacts me (mostly text). Do I just wait?