Never thought I'd be here........

[CO1978]

Crimson, I feel exactly the same way. Its true "You don't know what you got 'til its gone". I took my W for granted, and pray everyday that we can be a family again. I realize now how in love I am with my W. I may sound cheesy, but when I look at her all I see is the most beautiful woman in the world. 2 months ago when I looked at her, I used to see her flaws, but now its like when I first fell in love with her. I make sure I look her in her eyes the entire time she talks to me, sometimes I do get a little distracted and can't completely actively listen because I am truly blinded by her beuty. I also spend way more time playing with my S. My W always said I was a great father, but now I make sure I am even better. I love my family more than I ever knew and if I get a chance to be a family again I too will NEVER take them for granted.

[Accuray]

Crimson,

Regarding detachment - it goes against every natural grain in my being right now

WRT detaching, I'm going to recycle this:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2189833#Post2189833

Oh yes, it's so painful and requires incredible discipline and practice. When I was going through this I had to keep telling myself to do the opposite of what I wanted to do. When you start to see a few results it will become self-reinforcing in terms of the value, but no easier. If your W DOES come around at all, you will be tempted to try to make everything OK right away. This is like blowing really hard on a fire you're trying to start -- it blows it right out. When you're building a fire, you have to set the conditions but at some point you just have to let it start to burn and have faith that nothing you do is going to make it better and will potentially make it worse *for now*

You know, I was probably one of those people that gave a lot of lip service to "I love my wife and family" - but never LIVED it like I should. Now that I am on the brink of losing it, I have become PROFOUNDLY aware of how much I love them and how much they are the wind in my sail.

Amen, I felt that way too. Don't beat yourself up too badly on this point, all it does is make you feel worse about yourself. It's incredibly easy to let a long term relationship get on autopilot. Why? Because there is an understanding between you that one party won't just get up and leave. As a result, you don't have to work every day at keeping them engaged.

With this crisis has come understanding that you will take forward into all your future relationships and your parenting -- you can't let them get on autopilot, you have to do the work, and assume they WILL leave you if their needs are not being met. Know that this knowledge will make you a better person.

Finally, please also realize that the extreme angst you are feeling right now is partially the result of being left behind -- you want her more right now because you can't have her. In that situation, we make our spouse much more important to our self esteem than they should be. Not much you can do with that other than be aware of it and let it influence how you feel about yourself.

Accuray

[Crimson]

Wow. That's a d@mn good link, Accuray. Maybe I should read that book.

I just struggle with the notion that she even CARES about what I am doing or up to right now. I also struggle with the notion that she second guesses herself. To me, she presents like she is juuuuust fine on her own. Maybe it's an act on some level - but if it is, it is a GREAT act.

That said, I am continuing to vanish to the extent I can with a 19 month old son.

Crimson

[any chance?]

Amen to all those comments about wind in the sail and the recognition of what our WAS mean and have meant to us. So very, very true. That is the spark that keeps us focused.

[Accuray]

Crimson,

Yes, she will seem fine, particularly to you. There is no way that she's going to let you see a crack in that veneer. Just know that she is not fine, you're just the last one she's willing to share that fact with right now. No one can make such a big life change, inflict so much hurt, and go through so much upheaval without feelings of doubt, regret and remorse. They also, however, have hope that things will be better without you -- that's the only face you'll see.

Why? Because if she shows you doubt, remorse, or grief, she knows you will seize on it and come charging in and she wants space. You are like a wall of water behind a dam from her perspective. One little crack and she's going to be awash -- therefore she must be impermeable.

For men (and perhaps for women too), we are driven to solve problems. It's one of the old relationship cliches that women want to share their problems and just want us to listen, but we rush to offer solutions. When our relationships are in crisis, we want to solve the crisis right now. Every interaction becomes an opportunity to solve the problem. That's how we're wired and why this is hard -- because the solution comes from inaction in the relationship.

One of the great learnings I had through my crisis is the value of time. What your W says and does today is not permanent. We tend to deal in absolutes, and if our spouse tells us something with conviction, we perceive it as fact and it colors our understanding of our relationship forever after. That's not how people work however, people change their minds and their feelings daily. Therefore, there are some things that will reveal themselves only through time. That's what it means when DB says not to believe anything they say and only half of what they do. It's trying to tell you not to regard their current attitude as fact forever after.

You also need to give your strategies time to work. One exercise I used was to put a date on my calendar 3 weeks out. I said I would keep doing the same thing (detach, no R talks, whatever) for 3 weeks and at the end of that time, I would re-evaluate. Then, I would either KEEP doing the same thing, or change course depending on what was working. If you don't set goals and put dates in your calendar, it's very tempting to try to shift strategies and backslide based on how you are feeling in the moment, or in reaction to the last thing that happened.

We get into panic / crisis mode and don't see things as clearly as we should.

Sorry if this is redundant with advice you've already received. I feel your pain and I wish you the best

Accuray

[Crimson]

Accuray (and other passers-by),

You are probably right. She has most likely gone into "SuperWoman" mode in front of me at this point. She has shown a few chinks in her armor (very, very few) but I think those are mostly tied to guilt at the book said and not a true sadness for the loss of a relationship or missing a spouse.

"Every interaction becomes an opportunity to solve the problem". Correct - I find myself slicing apart everything she says and does in an attempt to find some kid of meaning and I mostly just end up in a vortex larger than the one I started off in. Sadly, we are all rather simple beings constantly in search of the predictability of "cause and effect" relationships. We have been doing it since we were babies. If I hold on to the table I won't fall down when I try to walk, If I cry my mother magically shows up. At 38, I am still looking to solve this mess with that same logic and it is much more complex than that I am learning. If I use my BlackBerry too much, she'll leave - ergo, if I stop using it she will come back. Nope. Not really. And that is where patience comes in to play. There are far too many variables that got me to this place to be able to resolve them with a simple cause and effect observation in a matter of days. I get frustrated by that but I am attempting to make time my friend as everyone says (I am also friends with a low dosage of an antidepressant right now, but I digress.....).

I do tend to see her words as final. She has dropped some pretty hard punches on me - "IT'S OVER! I'M DONE! AND THERE IS NOTHING THAT YOU CAN DO OR SAY TO MAKE ME CHANGE MY MIND!". That one stands out in my memory pretty well. Granted, it was said in an argument, but still - she sure as h*ll meant it at the time and has given no indication that she has softened her stance. I am hopeful that time will help.

Regarding giving strategies time - here is a question. So right now I am LRT/dim. Let's say I keep that up for 3-4 weeks and see nothing back? What then? They don't call it last resort for nothing - I would figure there is no place to go after that. And since I am thinking that it is going to take MONTHS to melt some of the ice that is engulfing my W right now I think if I set a 3 week timer for results right now I am kidding myself.

Trying not to panic. Actually do MUCH better than I was 8 weeks ago. No more dry-heaving for 5 minutes every morning and no more cognitive paralysis in the office. That is a good sign.

Crimson

[jbnati]

She has dropped some pretty hard punches on me - "IT'S OVER! I'M DONE! AND THERE IS NOTHING THAT YOU CAN DO OR SAY TO MAKE ME CHANGE MY MIND!"

Crimson, there is chance that while she may have been saying this to you and even looking at you when she said it, she may have been saying to herself, as an act of self-convincing. IOW, she has to constantly remind herself of what what she's doing and why. Man, I have heard different variations of this SO many times over the last 10 months. It's pretty scary sometimes how convincing it can be. Don't drink the Kool-Aid.

I think you're in a one day at a time mode right now. Maybe in 3 weeks you can start looking for small positives, but you may not get much more than that. Take advantage of this time to GAL and work on yourself. If you don't notice any changes, re-evaluate at that time. There are plenty of folks here to help you navigate that. You don't have to know your strategy 3 weeks out right now.

[Accuray]

I do tend to see her words as final.

W: "We are done and there is nothing you can say or do to make me reconsider -- I've moved on"

Me: "So there is no chance of reconciliation?"

W: "No, don't even try"

...another conversation

Me: "I want you to be happy"

W: "I don't give a f%#@ what you want!"

Now we're back together and doing very well overall. At the time, I heard all that as final.

Regarding giving strategies time - here is a question. So right now I am LRT/dim. Let's say I keep that up for 3-4 weeks and see nothing back? What then? They don't call it last resort for nothing - I would figure there is no place to go after that. And since I am thinking that it is going to take MONTHS to melt some of the ice that is engulfing my W right now I think if I set a 3 week timer for results right now I am kidding myself.

The point is not to see results in 3 weeks, you will likely see no change. The point is to allow time to pass, and to give yourself a break without feeling like you're giving up or doing nothing. Instead of wrestling with pursuit, deconstructing what she's doing etc., what you are "doing" is waiting 3 weeks before you change anything.

It's like a form of self-hypnosis -- what I'm doing is waiting and working on me. I don't expect to assess where I stand with my W hourly or daily, I'm going to do it in 3 weeks.

Then, when 3 weeks comes, you decide what to do again. You may set another 3 week check-in goal. You may decide that was too long and go 2 weeks, it may be too short and you're going to go a month. You may set a timeline where if the LRT isn't working, you're going to do something else.

The point is to help with your anxiety -- space out the periods when you concentrate on your situation with intensity. Give yourself a break in between.

One of the many, many books I read was "Mindful Loving". If you can make it through that and absorb it I applaud you, it's a stretch. One of the things I DID take from it is the value of "surrender". The idea is to surrender to things that are outside of your control, realize they are out of your control, and therefore stop worrying about them because there is nothing you can do. It's an attitude about things that takes practice, but once you can figure it out, it really helps.

Accuray

[25yearsmlc]

Accuray (and other passers-by),

You are probably right. She has most likely gone into "SuperWoman" mode in front of me at this point. She has shown a few chinks in her armor (very, very few) but I think those are mostly tied to guilt at the book said and not a true sadness for the loss of a relationship or missing a spouse.

"Every interaction becomes an opportunity to solve the problem". Correct - I find myself slicing apart everything she says and does in an attempt to find some kid of meaning and I mostly just end up in a vortex larger than the one I started off in.


your mind reading ^^^^ is NOT a good thing. It will usually be off, and inaccurate and painful to you...so how useful is it? Um, NOT at all.

I'd argue it's actually harmful b/c you will usually be wrong AND

you are wasting your energy on mind reading HER

instead of creating YOUR NEW life and self.

At 38, I am still looking to solve this mess with that same logic and it is much more complex than that I am learning. If I use my BlackBerry too much, she'll leave - ergo, if I stop using it she will come back. Nope. Not really.


Make the change anyhow so you won't have another relationship harmed by excessive use of the Blackberry and IF SHE returns,

it will be a habit you have repaired and a change she can see!


And that is where patience comes in to play. There are far too many variables that got me to this place to be able to resolve them with a simple cause and effect observation in a matter of days. I get frustrated===but I digress.....).

TIME APART is a gift, in part. At least use that wisely.

DETACH AND GAL...there is a reason we veterans keep harping on it...


I do tend to see her words as final. She has dropped some pretty hard punches on me - "IT'S OVER! I'M DONE! AND THERE IS NOTHING THAT YOU CAN DO OR SAY TO MAKE ME CHANGE MY MIND!".

ah but here you are simply mistaken. For 2 reasons....one, they don't know what they are saying/feeling, and second, we all evolve in this process.

1) When H went rampant in his decision to live in the tundra and expected us to join him WHEN he was ready for us, or later, or not OR whatever blah blah blah...

He does NOT recall many things he said, including that he was "willing to take the chance" of losing his family. I had said "there's a good chance you'll lose your family and marriage if you go there," and that was his reply.

Crimson, I believe him when he denies recalling that. He even said he'd "never say something like that."

I KNOW he said it. I can tell you where I was standing and what I was doing, (guest bathroom, taking wallpaper down and spackling) when he said it.

But nope, he has no recall.

2) As for ME, I kept a journal back them. I wrote at the time, how I felt. Some of it makes me mad now when i read it over again, so I'm not sure it's useful.

But what is useful, is seeing what I wrote then and how far I've come with forgiveness and handling anger. True, Sometimes I "tried" things out in writing to see how they felt.

But mostly I believed what I wrote when I wrote it. It was how I FELT AT THAT TIME....and now do not.

Meaning...we can change. We do change.

Nothing your wife says or actually feels now, is written in stone. It's not irrevocable, and it's not static.

You should assume her feelings will evolve, as will yours. Your goal is to be ready to show your best side, in the event life steers her your way.

And it will. You have a marital history she is partly suppressing, as I did when h was gone. In my pain, All I could then recall was our struggling (he was an MD and I had put him thru med school and residency, etc) and his endless "striving, never arriving"...

but when he was gone and I had the space and time to reflect, I let good memories resurface and saw that yes indeed, at one point we had a very special marriage.

I was not sure we could ever get it back but at least I could admit it was once very very good...

your wife has not had the space or time for those memories to resurface. She's busy suppressing them. AND the more you challenge the choices she is making,

the more you force her to defend them and cement them in,

and thereby suppress the natural tendency she will have, IN TIME-

to reflect more accurately on the time she had with you.

You are the father of her only child ...a man she once loved enough to marry, married to for 8 years, a man who loves her son as she does, who surely offered her something of value...trust that you did have a good thing once upon a time. Trust She'll remember it...give her the time and space to do it.

You are to pull back BECAUSE you love her, not despite it.


That one stands out in my memory pretty well. Granted, it was said in an argument, but still - she sure as h*ll meant it at the time and has given no indication that she has softened her stance. I am hopeful that time will help.


see above...as for what is said in an argument, I'd suggest you forget it ALL. God help me if my h recalls what I said when I felt cornered or furious and desparate. I have actively worked on "forgetting" what HE said, trust me there. OMG, seriously...

let it go!


Regarding giving strategies time - here is a question. So right now I am LRT/dim. Let's say I keep that up for 3-4 weeks and see nothing back? What then?


I would suggest going for a lot longer than 3-4 weeks. I read that for every year of marriage you need a month of CONSISTENT change to undo a belief.
That's 8 months for you.

I personally think 90 days is a good start. You are nowhere near that with your projections...

like YOU said though, patience is your goal. Keep working at it.


They don't call it last resort for nothing - I would figure there is no place to go after that. And since I am thinking that it is going to take MONTHS to melt some of the ice that is engulfing my W right now I think if I set a 3 week timer for results right now I am kidding myself.

clearly


Trying not to panic. Actually do MUCH better than I was 8 weeks ago. No more dry-heaving for 5 minutes every morning and no more cognitive paralysis in the office. That is a good sign.

Crimson

yep it's a good sign.

none of us KNOWS you

all we can is see if we can offer you insights based on our experience, and what you post, but which is still woefully inadequate knowledge of who you are or were.

You seem cognitively alert and articulate. I don't know what you look or act like or how you are socially. None of us do.

But if you bravely and truthfully tell me that you "own" part of this, I believe you.

If you say "25, I can't buy that assessment. I'm not that way",

I am going to trust that either you are accurate, OR you are not ready to see it.


I can be wrong and have no trouble admitting that. Like you said, we can only go based on what we think we know, which isn't a lot about any people here.

You took some time to respond to the questions I posed and eventually you did answer them, and I think that's growth.

It's just that when our families or friends (or mc's) tell us that our spouses are "wrong" or mistreating us, it is not helpful to OUR growth

or our marriages.

For me this board helped me see MY role in what superficially appeared to be a clear cut case of my MLC H going nuts and being uber selfish and "entitled"...but it was messier than that, and more complex.

And I could and did begin to react differently. And here we are.

NOT all is perfect, but it sure went better than I thought it would.

5 years ago I gave my m a "10% chance of success". And I thought that was being overly hopeful.

Nothing she says is permanent. There's a reason we say "believe nothing they say and only half of what they do."

Heck, you should not believe half of what YOU say for that matter....

[Harrier]

I may sound cheesy, but when I look at her all I see is the most beautiful woman in the world. 2 months ago when I looked at her, I used to see her flaws, but now its like when I first fell in love with her. I make sure I look her in her eyes the entire time she talks to me, sometimes I do get a little distracted and can't completely actively listen because I am truly blinded by her beuty.

I actually feel this is kinda dangerous thinking. You don't want to put your W into a box like this. And this only adds to the pursuit wether you realize it or not.
I know I felt this way shortly after the bomb, but then I came to realize the woman I really love has flaws, is imperfect (we all are).

Also, this to some extent dehumanizers her as well. I have no problem focusing on the good qualities of your W and the things that you love (although, most of the focus should be on yourself)