reading your whole thread through....this struck me as odd.
if you divorce, she'll get HALF of all of it. So, since all she took was a bed for son, is it really so bad that she "asks" for half of what she owns anyhow?
I wonder if to her, maybe, she should not even have to ask.
Originally Posted By: Crimson
Funny. No sooner did I post this than I got a text from W asking for the toaster ("if you don't use it").
Even though I am in LRT and trying to save my family I replied as follows: "I am going to make a request and I hope you don't take it the wrong way - please stop asking me for things. You know it is still in me to try to provide and protect for you and that is not where we are anymore. I want to say "yes" to nearly everything because I still view your comfort and safety as my job - which I need to stop doing. We now have separate households and we need to take care of them ourselves. In the end, it will help me detach from you - and I believe that is what you would like at this stage of our relationship". "W, for now, Maybe we can divide the necessary things together so you don't have to do this in a piece meal fashion and I won't feel burglarized."
Kind of felt good to say that, but can't say that it moves me any closer to a goal of saving my family. Too much? I thought it was off track. But hey, that's just me.
Crimson
still NOT clear on your 180s. Nor am I very clear on what she said, specifically, about you that made her want to leave.
Yes she said you were depressive and repressive. How so? Were you a downer? What are you doing about that NOW?
Can YOU name a way in which she was correct?
I ask not b/c I don't believe her, but b/c I want to know if you see it now so you can change it.
No matter what else happens, she will NOT come back to you UNLESS
she believes marriage to you now and from this day forward,
can be better and different.
What changes are YOU making in you, to show her that?
You spend far too much energy on what SHE is doing/thinking/planning
and I can't think of what YOU are doing to GAL.
Spend that energy on creating a new wonderful life for YOU and your son...(your w knows where to find you when she's ready.)
as for your sister telling you to "be realistic", she means well. But at this early stage, it's a bit silly to say it's hopeless.
Tell your sister you want support for the long run saving of the marriage, not todays bandaid to make you feel better, like an OW flirting or your sister removing all hope.
You can prepare for the worst but hope for the best.
For now, I would back WAY OFF your w, & assume she needs a good 6 months on her own,
and I'd use that time to become the best father you can be (no woman is unmoved by the loving interaction of her h with their children, it's a turn on) and become a man only a fool would leave.
Bravely look inward and address your shortcomings, NOT so she notices but b/c you ought to be the best man you can become, for you, and for your son.
The real journey in life is an inward one.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
I will only say ONE Thing about your custody arrangement and how "FAIR" it all is. Not b/c I think you are wrong, per se. And I know others won't agree with me, but here it is...
As a mother, I have to say that When our son was that age, there was NO way I'd be away from him that many nights in a row. I would rather have switched homes w/my h, alternated nights somehow, or slept in a van by the river, rather than being apart for that long.
It's just too long to be away from the mother,(I admit I'm being sexist but she was a SAHM til recently, so yes, I think moms that have been at home with their only child tend to have bonded more) but to be fair,
I suppose it's too long for you too.
So split.... differently. Not such long stretches away...enough about the 50/50. It's not a tangible; it's your son. What is best for HIM?
Originally Posted By: Crimson
How do you maneuver your way through a custody disagreement and remain "friendly"? It got tense today, heard from her lawyer with her proposal that would basically give me about four or five fewer days each month. This is opposed to mine that divides the time in half.
Her initial rejection of my proposal was that it had too many exchanges in one week. Then I built a table in Excel that showed that her proposal and mine had the EXACT same number of exchanges. Once that objection was overcome, she moved on to "that would be six nights away and I absolutely will not do that!". So I brought to her attention that it was actually FIVE nights away and that BOTH of us had that so it was perfectly equal. She never responded. I hear her. And I hear the seething resentment growing in her too. Tough situation. Consult a child shrink perhaps?
I feel like she will oppose my proposal no matter what. The sad part is, now this is all flowing through lawyers so it is costing what? $400 and hour on each side to settle on something that is just math?
it's NOT just math, obviously. Crimson, that statement is alarming to me. Is it the type of thing you'd say to her in the past? Do you now see how sterile and competitive it sounds? This is not about being "right"...but about being happy, having your family together, being a gracious man in adversity. NOT a doormat, but not a petulant boy keeping score of marbles...
This D was her decision, I fought it and continue to do so quietly through DBing. So whether I like it or not, I am having a MINIMUM of 50% of my time stripped away from me against my will if she insists on seeing this thing through to the end. I am not giving up more than that. she's losing more than that, in terms of time with him. She WAS home with him more than 50% of the time, which she AND HE were both used to...don't forget there are two sides to things, and if you cannot ever see hers, or if you believe you are always right, then there isn't a lot of hope for you to turn things around.
Put it this way, you want to be wrong sometimes. Why? B/C Then it empowers you to change something!
If you really are being a perfect h, and your w leaves anyhow, then you're screwed b/c you cannot improve perfection. Make sense?
It seems she does not want to be fair or rational. I have not been rude, angry or insulting during this skirmish. I have just stuck to facts and have learned to not express my emotions in e-mail or text, and we certainly are not on the phone with each other.
How do i keep her from getting even angrier at me without backing down on this issue? pick your battles wisely. Stay calm. Do not say she's being irrational. I don't actually see it that way myself anyhow.
I think she believes: YOU are to blame for her living in relative squalor, along with son for those nights,
YOU are to blame for her decreased time with him and now, finally YOU are suddenly doing things with him that she hoped to do while you were married while SHE worked on the m and you refused to and were a wet blanket sucking out her will to live...and now you want a prize for being "father of the year"...
Crimson
for a guy who spends so much time wondering about what she is thinking
you really don't get her perspective much. Try to. Not b/c she's right or you are wrong, but b/c neither of you has a fully objective lens with which you view the world. None of us does. We all color our views and memories.
but here, You just end up convincing yourself you are right and I don't see how it helps...are you "right"?
Does that matter?
Not so much. Why? B/C IMO,
What matters is how you are growing and changing so that she can believe marriage to you can improve.
So, What's up with all that?
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
So I hoisted my son into the backpack and we went on a nice hike in the desert late this morning. I am learning to enjoy my time with him and not think too much about my W when we are together. Still, there are moments that creep into my head when I can almost see her here with us and hear her laughing along. I miss her tremendously in those moments and wonder what she is doing at the time.
don't assume she does not miss you at times either. She will tell you about it LAST....if at all....but know that it happens. Of course your son asks for her when he's with you doesn't he? We can assume he asks for you when he's with her. She feels more than you realize.
It's Sunday night and I have managed to not communicate with her since Friday. That's a pretty decent stretch for me - I had to fight the urge to send pictures of the baby but I was able to resist.
for now I would resist that while fighting about custody. Could even look cruel or like you are teasing her. Can you see how?
I struggled today with the notion of how much she must miss being away from him (as do I when he is gone). How in the world does she view that pain as "worth it" to be away from me? I am not perfect, nor am I the perfect husband - but I was the best I could be - never abusive, insulting, cared for her and the baby, and so on. You are defending yourself here^^^. Why? Why not work on you?
Granted, I can look in the rearview mirror now and see some things that I could have done or done better - if that^^^ is all you are doing with this time, then you are missing the opportunity of a life time.
Look inward and work on YOU.
You are all you control now anyhow, may as well work on something you are in charge of.
but I have a hard time seeing how those things could result in the end of a marriage. I hope this time apart gives her time to reflect, time to think and time to just stop being angry and viewing me as the centerpiece of her unhappiness in life.
OMG...Wow Crimson, I can see you need to read DR again...um, I know you are in pain. Sorry!
But you are sitting around wallowing and wasting time, and NOT working on you! And fighting her on custody measurements that would make an accountant proud, and her taking things from the house too fast, but you are not looking in the mirror to change.
So how about NOT worrying about what SHE is doing with this time, and instead, doing something yourself with this time??!!
In the meantime, I am fighting every natural urge to reach out to her in the name of LRT. I can only hope that it is effective on some level.
Crimson
it will be far more effective when you turn that focus on yourself.
For all you know, SHE is hoping YOU use this time to make the changes she asked of you a year ago...
and you both will be sorely disappointed to learn that each wanted the other to change.
My brother and his wife, well, his EX wife now, went to mc. He told me they were going to mc so he could get his "wife to see how she needed to change".
Privately, my sil told me she hoped my brother would "see the light and change his ways".
That moment was when I figured their m was doomed...and it was.
Change you for you. Like other successful LBSers, you change first and then, you Do it again and again, x 100.
When you feel you are THE person you want to be and it shows and emanates from within
you will find yourself attracting AND attractive to others. She'll look.
Only when I truly believed I was gaining more than I was losing by having h gone and moving onward,
and that I would truly be happy, with or without h, did I get to a great place of detachment. I was happy and alright, even though I had a wound. It was healing.
My inner contentedness shone through and h saw it and noticed it --and began to want back in. It took awhile.
And I did not want to go back to crazyland with a cranky critical h
when I had made such strides on my own & with the kids.
I just came to know that I was better off without him, the way he was becoming.
Yes, he awoke, in several starts and jumps, seemed to be himself again,and I came around. That took time.
But you must stop obsessing about what SHE is doing. The only thing that might awaken her is you detaching
and moving forward.
She'll hear far more about you than you think, and you will not have to tell her ANYTHING about your GAL or your friends, etc. Let her wonder.
Having some mystery now would not be bad. Let her think when she has son, you are having a ball! NOT pining for her and him, but living the Vida Loca... AND growing into the man she always wanted, only to be there for some OW after all she invested in you AND having your son, etc...
of course she'll regret things IF YOU are improved. But if she left you with reason and thinks you are still the exact same, THEN maybe not.
But ---Just detach Crimson, seriously.
(Since your name is Crimson, may I just say "War Eagle"?)
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
The problem is she is proposing taking him during her scheduled time with him. So I don't think it will come at the expense of MY time with him. Rather, I won't let it come at the expense of my time with him. Technically, she can do whatever she wants with him with her time. However, as noted, I can say she can't leave the state.
why say she can't leave the state when it's HER time?
Bond I disagree that he is being taken advantage of here.
Crimson, What is your goal in denying her this trip? Punishing? You were not going to see him then anyhow, correct?
So what exactly are you losing?
And fighting this for some....reason...will cost you what? (I think a lot)
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
None. My oppositional side just doesn't want him that far away and I am saddened because that will be the first trip without me. I am being small, but at least I am being honest about it.
I will reply and act "as if" this is a great idea and I am all for it. Guess that might be a 180 for her, too.
Crimson.
praise GOD the divine answer comes through!!! and yes insightful AND it's a 180!
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Good job Crimson... yes, it's her time let her do what she wants with the baby. Remember, what goes around comes around and the two of you will need to function as co-parents which is sort of like business partners. So if you don't want her to extract a toll out of you, you best not do the same. Another way of saying this is to simply treat her the way you would wish to be treated (and understand there's no promise this works the other direction).
Married 6 together 8 Me:38 W:31 second marriage for both SS12, SD10, S6 Bomb: 9/8/11 (day before our 5 yr ann) W moved out: 2/18/12 D final: 11/12/12 Share S 50/50. Spend as much time as I can with SS & SD
Wow, 25 - I feel like I should write you a check or something. Thanks for the keyboard therapy session - it really helps me think and put things in their proper place.
To answer some of your questions - I live in a community property state. As a result, property and debt that an individual bringsinto the marriage remain sole and separate in the course of its dissolution. A great number of the items she was asking for (including bed) belonged to me before we were married. That said, I was willing to negotiate outside of those parameters, but she immediately handed the situation to her L and that pretty much dried up any goodwill I had at the time.
I also could have exercised a bit more brevity in the "stop asking for things" text. I let some of my emptions seep through by accident and said too much. I am new to this - live and learn. I am discovering that my initial reaction to things is typically not the best course to take.
Regrading what specifically she has said, other than what I detailed in my 180s post - maybe it can be best summarized by saying she thought that everything had me my way all the time. That I was unwilling to compromise or accept ideas or suggestions that she brought to the table. That if I didn't think something was being done the way that I thought it should be done then I would object and/or get angry. She thought that nothing she did in my eyes was good enough or it went unnoticed. She believed that I was disconnected from the family and not engaged enough or affectionate enough. She said that we were not compatiable and had never been. Now, I don't agree with all of these things but I can admit that I DO see how she can feel that way and how I can come across that way. Her feelings are valid. I am just really struggling with the list of things above to find a way to 180 them effectively in a manner that would both benefit me as a person and get her attention. I know, her attention shouldn't matter.
You are correct in saying that I spend too much energy thinking about what she is doing and thinking. Believe it or not, it has gotten better over the weeks although it isn't "good" yet. A lot of that is still me just trying to process the hurt and understand why this is all happening and hell, I guess I just miss her. I think I am doing a lot to GAL. I have WAY stepped up the activities with my son when I have him - we have been a bunch of places together and have met up with friends, etc. - I have reconnected with some old friends that I lost touch with while I was married and we go out at times. I hosted a Christmas decorating party at my house last weekend. I've started hiking again (need to get back to the gym, too). When I don't have my son, I try to keep my dance card pretty full. This weekend I have my company Christmas party and a nice resort - one of my good friends from out of town is actually coming for it and we are going to just hang out and stay busy through the weekend. More along the "giving" spirit of things, I volunteered to participate in a clinical research study for a new drug. So I am trying, but I am sure there is plenty more that I need to do yet. I also find myself reading more and watching a lot less TV (complaint from W - 180?).
In terms of backing way off my W, I think I have. I honestly do not initiate any contact with her unless she initiates first (mostly via text) and I do my best to be as brief as possible and answer her questions. I figured she would need at LEAST 6 months to get to a point where she could talk to me as well.I agree that I should use this time to become the best father I can be, that is where my head is right now. I'm just trying to accept the fact that I will being doing it alone - which is OK, just need to adjust a bit. I see this phrase a lot "become a man only a fool would leave" - who IS that man? Is it different for every woman? Are there commonalities that these men share? I ask simply becuase I don't know and would like to move it that direction for my sake if nothing else.
Regarding custody - she has expressed two concerns that oppose one another. 1.) she doesn't want too many exchanges in a week. 2.) she doesn't want too many nights away. You LITERALLY can't have both - so I'm trapped to some degree. Also, at this stage of his life I think 50/50 IS best for our son - he needs both of us in his life wothout a doubt. I know being away from him hurts her, but it hurts me as well....I hate it when he is gone from me, I feel that pain down to my core. I haven't really boiled this issue down to who is right and who is wrong, 25. Rather, I am trying to focus on what is fair for both of us and best for our son. She has flat out declared that she "wants more than equal time" but was just trying to be amicable when she said otherwise in the past. My son is the bright spot in my life right now, and I don't want to lose him any more than this pending D my W is pursuing will force me to. It's a tough issue and I will be glad when it is resolved. It really comes back to bite me in the butt, too - because she can use this as proof that "everything always has to be your way!" - even though I have told her I want to compromise and meet in the middle. To her, and this has been a problem, "compromise" means she didn't get exactly what she wanted and I did (especially if I proposed the compromise).
It seems like the net-net of all of this is that you're telling me that I need to take a deep look into myself and try to find the flaws that drove my W away....and fix them. I am trying, believe me - it's just going to take time and the removal of some ego and blinders. I also hear you saying that I need to arrive at a place where I am happy with or without her. It's still a little fresh (the pain, that is) but I am trying to get there. It doesn't help that it is the holiday season, either.
I'll be honest and expresss something to you that I have not really mentioned in previous posts (since we are doing keyboard therapy and all). I am terrified that when I completely detach she will find someone else and that will close the door on my M forever. I feel that she has no connection with me that would distinguish me from any other random she would encounter. She has said repeatedly that she "doesn't want to date, doesn't want to remarry, doesn't want other men around our son". But can I believe that? Someone could come along and be the total antithesis of everything she disliked about me and sweep her right off her feet. THAT, 25, scares me. I know it shouldn't, and I know I should not focus on what she is doing or might do - but that one is a tuffy. The thought of her being with someone else really burns. I know....I need to get over it.
Thank you for your insight - it was great and I look forward to more. I have pretty broad shoulders for criticism (thank my parents) so you can be a blunt as you need to be....it really helps.
Great work here. Wow can 25yearmlc hit those nails on the head or what?
I am like you in that I am terrified of the detaching, thinking it will indeed close the door on my M. Of coyurse my H already has someone else. But I really need to work on that, and just step off that cliff and detach way more.
I remember last year when I was first becoming aware of there being problems in my M. I remember thinking that by next Christmas we would have worked everything out. Now I'm seeing this is a long process.
So hang in there and listen to 25yearmlc! I got my notebook out and made some notes!
Wendy
Me 57 XH 58 Sons age 32 & 27 M:32 D final 9/12 Bought 10 Acres and Living the Dream!
MB - I have made my peace with it for the most part. We just need to settle in on actual dates. He will be out of school that week and we both want some of that time to spend with him.
Wtiki - She pretty much drilled it. I am grateful for that, though. I do well with brutal honesty in situations where I am uncertain. This one qualifies as such.
Regarding detachment - it goes against every natural grain in my being right now, but I see WHY it is necessary. As it stands already, I feel as if she has forgotten about me completely right now and going dark/dim only makes it worse. Notwithstanding, I am moving in that direction on faith alone. To the credit of DR and every other vet on this board, pleading, begging, crying, all of that did nothing. She is basically a cold wind right now and I am hoping that it warms one of these days. In the meantime, it would appear I have some introspection and changing to do.
You know, I was probably one of those people that gave a lot of lip service to "I love my wife and family" - but never LIVED it like I should. Now that I am on the brink of losing it, I have become PROFOUNDLY aware of how much I love them and how much they are the wind in my sail. If I am ever given a second bite at the apple I will never take anything for granted again.
