DB'ing is soooo hard!

[25yearsmlc]

Rick, I feel for you. You are in pain and you are getting a ton of advice, some of which is conflicting.

I will add to that, I'm afraid. This is long one, even for me

But the way I see it, YOU are putting yourself on the road to divorce. Of course your w triggered a lot of this. I am NOT saying all this is your fault.

But awhile back I posted at length to you on what I heard in YOUR words, about your own behavior. And re: your wife---I think she has had one of the worst childhoods and teen years I've heard here. Top 5...and that is saying a lot.

I just watched a film about Marilyn Monroe ("My week with Marilyn"--great film, being overlooked due to lack of marketing money. YOU ought to go see it).

In her life, and like your w, Marilyn Monroe was sexually abused at a young age and had several abortions. She lost her mother at age 8 (your wife lost her father at that age and in Monroe's case there was no father. In your wife's case the mother was so busy with 7 kids and only her income, in effect your wife was an orphan with some siblings).

The only "intimacy" Marilyn Monroe had (which we ALL crave and have a human need for), was sex.

See any pattern in HER life? I think your wife put all her energy into raising the boys AND having a job and hoped her inner issues would work themselves out without her having to face them. She had tremendous deficits as a child and was victimized, more than once. When you married her, the way YOU described it, was that you were saving someone from themselves and I read into that, that you blamed her for a lot of "poor choices". Given her background, I'm amazed at how functioning she is. But she needs serious help. You vowed "in sickness and in health."

Now that her sickness hurts your feelings and pride, you seem to be going with anger...

I'm very glad she's getting help now. Wish it had happened sooner.

When I posted to you, per your request that I be direct, or wanting "2 x 4's", you still glossed over your issues. When I told you how I saw it, and wrote a long post to you,

what I got back mostly (not all, but mostly) was you defending yourself. And explaining yourself. NOT you saying "wow, now I see how it could be viewed that way."

And then you'd ask in a vague way how you could have done it better....
but without specifics its' very hard to say.

Just sounded to me like you were asking how you could get your way. Then you said you often did not get your way

but then you'd repeat the exact same behavior the next time conflicts arose. And the results were the same.

I don't believe your wife's biggest love language is gifts, unless that was a deprivation from childhood. I'd bet compliments that are sincere and are NOT followed with a request, would help....which was a tactic you suggested trying. I say "DON'T"...instead, just validate and listen. Don't get your way at all for now.

If you think about it, all those small "victories" of yours, have cost you so much b/c they ate at her so much.

Before I go any further, let me say 3 other things.

Seeing a L is always a good idea, imo. I am a L, so maybe I"m biased. But knowledge is helpful.

Second, your son's have no business telling you anything about
this.

Finally, make sure your pride is distinct from your self respect.

I had a very hard time with that fine line between the two. There were MANY times I wanted to serve my h papers and be done with it. A lot of that was b/c I felt humiliated. I wanted it to end but I HAD to know I had given it my all and put my ego aside, for awhile.


But your w, (and my h) were not trying to humiliate us. They were lost and confused, and yes, self absorbed, but not trying to hurt us. They were trying to resolve issues that sometimes, had little to do with us.


So beware of acting out of pride or ego or anger. It's usually the punitive way, it never comes from a place of love and it always hurts or ends the marriage.


Finally, I don't think the R with the OM was that big a deal. I did not see it as a threat to your m when all she did was call him long distance.

I believe for a very long time she felt safe in talking with him BECAUSE of the distance. I disagree with Telemark on this issue, at least temporarily. Meaning, in your wife's case, which IS NOT the same as all others (she has real issues)

she felt safe talking to a man who could not make phyiscal demands of her AND who evidently listened to her. All He could do was just listen. Didn't try, like you did, to "fix" it or "find solutions."

You might be shocked to learn that often we women know the "solutions" but simply want to express our emotions about something.

To this day, I cannot stand when I tell my h, about a problem friend or at work and h immediately proposes a one or two sentence "solution" to me. Why?

B/c IT ENDS THE TALK and shuts me up ("gee, guess I'm done since the answer is so obvious") when what I really wanted h to do, was listen to how I FELT!! NOT SOLVE IT....

I think THAT was what your w was trying to get from you. For awhile, that is what she got from OM on the phone. That made you mad. Too bad.

Now that she's met him in person, it may have morphed nto a PA b/c to her, that's intimacy and since she now has shared things with him and he simply listened, she may feel very close to him. But you have sons and history and she once felt great love for you I'm sure. Be the man she fell in love with---and if you try to piece, then court her. Don't just make her the mother of your children.


I still see you with a chance at turning this around. I really do. But here's the thing. Stop thinking each and every problem must be solved then and there or even at all....sometimes you don't have to agree.

Sure, bills need to get paid. Broken faucets need repair. But how often she calls her sister or how she spends her time, after 24 years of m, must she account to you all her hours?

As for her Not doing a lot around the house--big deal. Sorry but why aren't your sons doing the housework? Is the adult son paying rent? Why do I get the feeling she was the maid for 3 grown men and a teen? I guess it's b/c you complained about it and it doesn't make sense to me, especially your nerve and level of involvement in this.

I point blank TOLD my kids that I thought their dad was "confused' when they said "no he's selfish. WHy don't you divorce him?"

Was I right to stay? I hope so, I think so. But I did tell them that I'd let THEM KNOW IF I wanted their opinions....and that it did not help ME or the marriage for them to pipe in with their vast marital experience.

What they really needed from me was reassurance that i would not uproot them to follow their dad, that their lives were stable and I was not going to move them. And that I'd be there for them, no matter where their dad's journey took him....I think your 13 y/o needs that.

Sorry if I'm off on that, but how much housework can there be when there is only 1 13y/o and 2 grown men around? You vacuum, and take out trash and other things every adult does for themself. If your sons are cleaning up after themselves and you are, what's left? Yardwork, okay. Was your w doing that before? Repairs...again, was SHE the one doing those before all this?

Cooking...okay maybe she was the cook. And that is new to you. My solution, since you like those so much... is for you to take a cooking class.

It's one of those GAL that means you meet new people, get in a good mood, learn something new or cool and that pushes your comfort zone AND in your case

it's not exactly suspicious. Although trust me, a lot of women will be in the class. You can tell her you want to make her something special later, or just learn to cook, since you miss hers??

2TP - Can you say DOORMAT?

Rick - Why yes I can. Man, have I let myself get played.


Wow....See, I see pride and anger and "teach her a lesson" here^^^.

I do NOT see doormat. (or the divine)

In fact, she was the doormat in her eyes, for decades. So where's the doormat part? How did she "play" YOU?

That she saw OM and you assume that she got physical, and therefore you are a doormat? For what? Not filing? Is that it? Just so I"m clear...


Time to stop and see where this road leads. Really let the divine universe lead the way (with help from you guys). I actually think this is a big life lesson for me. Learn to trust and walk with the divine. I always thought I was in control of all I was involved in. I stopped listening to the divine whisper and lived within my head.


that^^^^ all sounds fine and great to me, if you mean you'll listen to the divine and WORK ON YOURSELF.

I told you once that the "real journey in life is an inward one". The successful DBers here looked IN first. WE made the changes in our lives and became very attractive/attracting to people in our lives, including eventually our spouses. Takes time!

Your w needs to feel FREE TO CHOOSE you, not pressured to do so.

She has been pressured and manipulated and victimized all her life. If she can see you as a man she can trust

(and you confuse her mistrust of you always, with the issue of sexual fidelity. Rick, there are many ways a man can make his wife feel unsafe and distrustful....) THEN she may be able to see you clearly, without the fog. And if you are the man you CAN be and should be, with that divine spark in you letting the light shine

she can freely choose you.


2TP - know how you feel but I think this is the counter intuitive part of DB'ing. You have to accept that your marriage as it was is FINISHED! Once you do, I think it is easier to then go dark and let the chips fall where they may. Look, the reality is that both you and I may never get our wives back. And frankly, do we want them back in their current form? Doubtful! So, what else is there for us to do. The DB'ing books provide remedies and tools that when used properly may help get things on a new track. Notice I didn't say back on track. You don't want things back on the same track but a new track.


FULL AGREEMENT...>^^^^ Old M needed to go and for that, you can thank her. But Go to Retrovaille if she's willing. if not then for now, Take a communication class by yourself.

I strongly believe you have a hard time just listening. There are exercises for that. (Please don't get offended by that). I just think when you hear her, you are preparing your next response, rather than simply letting her words sink in.

And there is much LESS need for your response, than you realize. That may sound SO contradictory to your life experience and how you want to handle things

but you got yourself here in part b/c of that. THe ONE thing your w was clear about is that she did not want your answers. yet you keep asking us when you get to talk and when you get to speak and "Solve" things.

You are still missing the boat on this one.

But don't get me wrong Rick. I do see some real growth in you.

Let me suggest two responses for you when you feel compelled to give one. Neither response is doormattish, and neither response escalates or blames.

1) IF she revises an event so much you don't even recognize it, do not deny it happened at all or that way. (( I almost called h a liar at one point but then my kids reminded me of an event I had literally forgotten so I'm very glad I kept my mouth shut and gave this reply instead...))

"Wow, I don't recall it that way at all, but I'm sorry it hurt you."

2) If she revises something or mentions something partly (or totally) true and you realized YOU DID screw up something, then you say

"W, if i had it to do over again, I'd do a LOT of things differently."

Both answers show your willingness to own something and both imply or state that YOU would react differently.

Never forget this fact, Rick..right or wrong,

If your w cannot see that marriage to you can be better and different

she won't come back.

So show her that it will be different b/c YOU are different.



Rick - you're so right. I only want a new track and believe that can happen. But of course, I need her to believe in it too.


NO YOU DON'T....you do NOT need HER to believe in it now. Not for a long time. You need to show it to her.

2TP - I forget if you have young kids, but if you have made visitation arrangements with your W, perhaps your GAL can occur during those times when the kids are not under your watch.

Rick - I still live with my W, and our youngest S13 (of three) is at home. Really she does twist any GAL activity at all into an element of mistrust. It's scary that someone's mind can do that but I suspect a guilty conscious from her A. She has had this problem her entire life (mistrust) and is part of her issues with the psychiatrist.

Guilty conscience? Um, how about her mulitple issues from her LIFE and childhood as being the core here??
You told us she had trust issues the whole marriage, way before any OM exists. Don't project your anger and fear onto her here. Don't assume it's guilt --distrust was there before. Of course she has trust issues....wish she'd gotten help for them before.

Rick, is it true that she never saw a T or shrink before the m was threatened?

And you did admit that you were critical of her. And that you did not respect her opinion. Can you see why she would Not want to "discuss" things with you?

i.e., She knows what's coming....

what 180 are you doing for her in that area?



2TP - The other thing is that you talk about going dark when perhaps all you need to do is go a little dim.

Rick - Maybe. I'll try this and keep the possibility of D at bay for now.

Just asking, but while your W is with the OM, have you ever thought that there may be a better woman for you out there, esp when friends and family suggets it?

stop these "Friends" from "helping" you by telling you to cheat. This is NOT part of DBing.

To me Rick, you are doing DB work a few days a week and then the opposite the rest of the time.

Decide which approach to take and DO IT RIGHT and for a decent amount of time. THEN Decide if it's not working.

I can't say you've actually given it a real shot at this point due to how much you were all doing.

I'm not saying mentally cheating but just as a concept. Have you had any issues of woman approaching you now that word about your sitch is known?

Most of us have had this happen. I don't know how others react but I found the attention of OMs mostly great for my ego. Didn't act on it but I also knew I was not choosing to stay married for fear of being alone otherwise. I was being sought so it empowered me in a good way to STAY married, paradoxically.

And yes, I had lost weight and looked better than before. Felt pretty great when I went to my HS reunion and was in better shape than nearly all the rest. Ahhh, the benefits of the DB diet....


Also, how do you feel about snooping from a moral and practical point of view? Whatever I have discovered on my own, or has been brought to me as evidence by my sons has been pretty bad.


STOP your sons from this behavior NOW. It cannot help ANYONE but it sure can destroy THEM, their image of her (which, lets' face it, given how you treated her before and what they saw, was less than respectful. Rick, I bet you wince at that comment. But I'm telling you I read your posts and your replies to my words and what I FELT

what I got as an intuitive feeling that has been consistent from you, is that you think your w is a mental and emotional weakling and she is NOT to be respected.

I think your sons felt that, acted on it, and want to punish her through you. And you must not allow that. If not for her, then for them. How are they going to see women now? And how are they going to treat theirs?

You have to show them a change in YOUR attitude. I think your w is "entitled" to some serious help for her problems from childhood which are NOT HER fault. Like I said, I don't think those problems bothered you nearly so much, til they affected you....


Some people tell me that I should spy away because I should know sooner than later if a PA has or has not occured.

What "people" volunteer this opinion to you? Oh, you are taking a poll? Stop it Rick. That's not DBing. Decide on an approach and give it a real chance.

This poll taking and others involvementsand telling you THEIR thoughts, speaks volumes about how little you have DBd and how you are cornering your wife into surrender/submission

or "Total victory for you" in a divorce. I'm getting a real "pride will dictate" here, instead of the divine guidance. What happened to that?



On one hand I feel that if I snoop I am cheating what the universe dicates should be, but on the other hand it is so hard not to snoop on her phone conversations. It just angers me so much when I do though. I'm guess I am going with don't snoop. Besdies when I do I picture myself doing it and feel another ball get lopped off each time.

Once again I really appreciate your thoughts and input. It would be nice talk about how this works out well for both us some day

Good luck Rick....try hard to listen to the divine in you.

When your actions come NOT from fear or anger or a wounded pride, but from a place of light and love

go with that.