DB'ing is soooo hard!

[rickb89]

2TP - How did the visit with the L go. Any new developments in your sitch? How are you feeling, emotionally and physically?

Rick - the L visit was definitely worth it. It gave me clarity on how this would work. The L explained that with my wife's psychiatric sessions, meds, the A (and the proof I have), the fact that she dropped out of the M counseling, etc that I should be able to get her to leave and get physical custody of my youngest son should I decide to pursue a D.

Physically I am doing well, and ironically. The bomb really blew me away for a time and I lost so much weight it was scary, and from lack of food was constantly greying out. But, I stuck to my yoga, running and exercises and have come out in really good shape. Ironically, everyone keeps telling me how good I look, and my wife who is known for her beauty and looking 20 yrs younger than her age looks like hell. I knew I wasn't the only one who saw that when my oldest son told me she turned into Emperor Palpatine (Star Wars). Look, I take no joy in this. When I see her hurting or looking so blown away I die inside. I'm incredibly protective of her.

Emotionally is another story. The initial shock of the bomb back in March has worn off. I've gone through stages of horror, fear, deep sadness, pursuing, you name it. Currently I feel a oonstant sense of rage against my wife and the OM (my cousin). I would let her take as much time as she needs to get through her crisis but I am having such a silent battle with putting up with the A in the meantime. She has told me all along its not an affair, just a deep friendship but I'm not sure I believe it, in fact I can't find any way to believe I'm not being lied to. As it is, no one else believes her at all, inclusing my sons. Even if it isn't an A, her way of handling this by blowing off her family constantly and it's destructive effects on the family have not been enough to stop her. Frankly, if street justice was the norm of our times, this guy would be taken out so fast. Hey, I realize the OM is just the symptom but this guy is in my family. It's disgraceful.

2 TP - Sometimes I suppose pulling the trigger on the D may be the catalyst that is needed to get things moving. But have you tried everything there is? Have you used all the arrows in your quiver?

Rick - You know as far as arrows in the quiver go, I really haven't gone dark on her, really. Just here and there. I really have become her manservant in that I am there for her in every way possible because I love her and want this to work, but she is absolutely not there for me in any way.

I think my W is looking at everything I do as a way to find some evidence of my wrongdoing so that she can try and deflect what she has already done. This is the bind I'm in and Busto spoke about this to you on your recent thread. I feel like you do. If I go dark it will be easy for her to just let our M drift away for good. So staying connected to her feels like the only way to keep hope alive.

Her is where I really need some input. If I pursue it doesn't work. If I go dark and GAL she tries to find ways to find deception in my actions. I feel like if I go dark then I am just giving her ammo back at me even though I would not being doing anything that would threaten a M. That's why I am considering that I have to D her. If I GAL and go dark for a period then I lose the leverage I have to salvage my life, home and custody. Right now I can point to her many weekends away from us with the OM (and many other ways she has moved from the M). If I GAL and am not around she will just say that I am doing the same thing as her. I lose my leverage, which I don't want to do. What do you gentlemen think? I really need input on this. I don't want her to be able to cast doubt on me by my GAL activities. Not that they would be anything bad for a marriage but she tries to twist everything possible into that.

2TP - Your W is controling you and you need to take back that control from her. She is not willing to budge so you need to make a move...and stick to it! When she gets PO'd when you try to go dark, that is her exercising control. Since she is the one who initiated all this mess, you should simply remind her with a smile on your face and in your tone, that this is what she wants and so you are simply giving her space. Then leave the room. Don't engage any further. Let her scream, rant and rave, etc. Leave the house and go for a walk then go do your GAL activities.

Rick - you know you just may be right. I need to just move on, go dark (stick to it!) and "f" her if she needs to leave her family in her crisis. I'm not heartless and I would do anything for her, except sit around while she's with the OM, and really not trying to repair our M or family. I really don't want to divorce her but I guess I can try really and truly going dark. If it ends at least I have my [censored] together in the meantime.

I truly appreciate your help in this awful sitch. I wish the best for you in your M.

[workinghardguy]

How do you suggest handling a W who is threatened by me GAL and makes her mistrust known?

Why the heck do you care? It's her distrust, not yours. You didn't create, she did. Stop owning it. In essence you're saying you shouldn't GAL or do things because it might make her mad. Really? Listen to yourself... by the way, has not doing things worked for you? Has toeing her line and staying in her pocket gotten you far?

Do what works, stop doing what doesn't. You know that toeing the line doesn't get you anything but headed towards divorce. So don't do that. You sort of know that GALing pisses her off and makes her uncomfortable, but does it actually drive her away?

My W didn't show up for family swim tonight. In the past I would've texted her every 15 minutes wondering when the hell she would show up. I also would've made excuses for her to the kids. Tonight I just ignored her and when the kids asked I told them they would have to ask mom why she couldn't be here. When she got home they asked her. I know it made her mad to not be shielded. Tough crap.

She does care. That's why she's getting defensive. But she doesn't want to engage. She wants to keep you available as her safety valve but live her own life too. Sweet deal, eh? As long you keep playing out the string she gets to keep having this deal. Lucky lady. But don't take the care piece to mean she's in love with you. She cares in a way that's selfish... she cares because she needs you and you're safety for her. I see the same thing with my W. She wants me here, she wants me around, she wants me to take care of bills and such - she just doesn't want me as a husband.

[2thepoint]

"...I really haven't gone dark on her, really. Just here and there. I really have become her manservant in that I am there for her in every way possible because I love her and want this to work, but she is absolutely not there for me in any way."

Can you say DOORMAT?

"I feel like you do. If I go dark it will be easy for her to just let our M drift away for good. So staying connected to her feels like the only way to keep hope alive."

I know how you feel but I think this is the counter intuitive part of DB'ing. You have to accept that your marriage as it was is FINISHED! Once you do, I think it is easier to then go dark and let the chips fall where they may. Look, the reality is that both you and I may never get our wives back. And frankly, do we want them back in their current form? Doubtful! So, what else is there for us to do. The DB'ing books provide remedies and tools that when used properly may help get things on a new track. Notice I didn't say back on track. You don't want things back on the same track but a new track.

"If I go dark and GAL she tries to find ways to find deception in my actions. I feel like if I go dark then I am just giving her ammo back at me even though I would not being doing anything that would threaten a M."

"I don't want her to be able to cast doubt on me by my GAL activities. Not that they would be anything bad for a marriage but she tries to twist everything possible into that."

I'm not a L so this may be a question best left to a L. But, there are lots of things that you can do to GAL that will have no way of being construed as behaving like your WAW. I forget if you have young kids, but if you have made visitation arrangements with your W, perhaps your GAL can occur during those times when the kids are not under your watch.

Also, here are some GAL ideas that might be helpful and also not create a whiff of shenanigans that your W might try to impose:



* If you attend church, perhaps you can join the church choir. Then you have weekly practices to go to and the Sunday choir commitment.

* Join a bowling league.

*If you are a birder, join a club and go on monthly outings.

* Volunteer and the local food bank or other charity of your choice.

* If you are the outdoorsy type, join a hiking club.

* If you are a history buff, join the local historical society.

You get the idea. There is so much you can do that wouldn't come off as suspicious and you will be expanding your horizons, stoking your need to GAL and be around others with similar interests. If your W becomes curious about your new activities, maybe ask her to join you. Wait! Don't do that just yet!

The other thing is that you talk about going dark when perhaps all you need to do is go a little dim.

I think the best thing though is to set certain days that belong to you and you only and use those days for your GAL. Then your W can't say that you are neglecting family responsibilities.

I hope this is helpful, Rick.

Keep on, keeping on!

[bustorama]

[quote=2thepoint]"...I really haven't gone dark on her, really....I really have become her manservant in that I am there for her in every way possible because I love her and want this to work, but she is absolutely not there for me in any way."

Can you say DOORMAT?

I wrote the below about myself self-mockingly in Aug, 2010 because I tried the above path at first. Needless to say, it is not what busted my D. It is not attractive or self-respecting to be obsequious. If you don't respect yourself, why should your W?

Today, I sent my W 3 dozen flowers and some chocolates and got a mariachi band to go to her work and sing her Candela and I am filing her toenails at her lunch hour and brought her some sushi I rolled for her. Then I texted her a few times and when she didn't respond I called her and cried some and told her FROM MY HEART that I had changed. I e-mailed her a list of 500 doctors and massage therapists she could look into for herself and told her I could drive her to any appointments. I offered to scrub her toilet (with a toothbrush like she likes) and said I didn't mind canceling my plans with my friends cause she was worth it. She patted me on the back and said she felt closer to me.

I'm a little tired, not sure why I feel dissatisfied. Maybe I should try harder. Let her know how I *REALLY* feel. That I will do *ANYTHING* for her.

"I feel like you do. If I go dark it will be easy for her to just let our M drift away for good. So staying connected to her feels like the only way to keep hope alive."

I agree with what 2tp wrote and, also see the msg and video I posted recently on 2tp's page.

"If I go dark and GAL she tries to find ways to find deception in my actions. I feel like if I go dark then I am just giving her ammo back at me even though I would not being doing anything that would threaten a M."

You don't necessarily have to go DARK. It's fine if that is what you want, but you can be detached without being dark, and the most important thing is to be emotionally detached, while living your life accepting her decision not to be with you. It's fine if your W hears snippets about and sees glimpses of what is going on in your life, she may get curious about what you are up to, and why you are not available to her or her lapdog anymore.

"I don't want her to be able to cast doubt on me by my GAL activities. Not that they would be anything bad for a marriage but she tries to twist everything possible into that."

What constitutes appropriate GAL for you is a personal decision. I didn't personally date, but I did do social things in groups that included members of the opposite sex.

If she says something, you can simply say, I am a little confused. You fired me as your H. But if I'm hearing you right, you sound concerned/angry/worried about what I am up to?" and then just listen

What are some activities you would like to either try or get back into that you have put to the side for too long? Consider this as an opportunity to self-explore and rediscover what Rick likes.

[rickb89]

WHG - thanks for the reply.

WHG - Why the heck do you care? It's her distrust, not yours. You didn't create, she did. Stop owning it. In essence you're saying you shouldn't GAL or do things because it might make her mad. Really? Listen to yourself... by the way, has not doing things worked for you? Has toeing her line and staying in her pocket gotten you far?

Rick - sadly true, comprimising for her has not worked. In fact, all it's done is made the hypocrisy of this make me angrier and angrier.

WHG - Do what works, stop doing what doesn't. You know that toeing the line doesn't get you anything but headed towards divorce. So don't do that. You sort of know that GALing pisses her off and makes her uncomfortable, but does it actually drive her away?

Rick - any time she gets uncomfortable with me GAL I think to myself that she must really not want me to leave her, but in her current state she is so defensive that she would rather end our M than admit she still wants me. I've been trying to figure a way around this dilemma. Maybe I just have to do it anyway and its up to her to figure out a way back to me.

WHG - She does care. That's why she's getting defensive. But she doesn't want to engage. She wants to keep you available as her safety valve but live her own life too. Sweet deal, eh? As long you keep playing out the string she gets to keep having this deal. Lucky lady. But don't take the care piece to mean she's in love with you. She cares in a way that's selfish... she cares because she needs you and you're safety for her. I see the same thing with my W. She wants me here, she wants me around, she wants me to take care of bills and such - she just doesn't want me as a husband.

That may be the ugly truth. I just find it so hard to believe that anyone would do something like this. You go from being in love with your W to wondering what depths of selfishness are behind her actions. I guess I'm like Neo in The Matrix. I need to take the blue pill and wake up!

[rickb89]

2TP - Can you say DOORMAT?

Rick - Why yes I can. Man, have I let myself get played. Time to stop and see where this road leads. Really let the divine universe lead the way (with help from you guys). I actually think this is a big life lesson for me. Learn to trust and walk with the divine. I always thought I was in control of all I was involved in. I stopped listening to the divine whisper and lived within my head.

2TP - know how you feel but I think this is the counter intuitive part of DB'ing. You have to accept that your marriage as it was is FINISHED! Once you do, I think it is easier to then go dark and let the chips fall where they may. Look, the reality is that both you and I may never get our wives back. And frankly, do we want them back in their current form? Doubtful! So, what else is there for us to do. The DB'ing books provide remedies and tools that when used properly may help get things on a new track. Notice I didn't say back on track. You don't want things back on the same track but a new track.

Rick - you're so right. I only want a new track and believe that can happen. But of course, I need her to believe in it too.

2TP - I forget if you have young kids, but if you have made visitation arrangements with your W, perhaps your GAL can occur during those times when the kids are not under your watch.

Rick - I still live with my W, and our youngest S13 (of three) is at home. Really she does twist any GAL activity at all into an element of mistrust. It's scary that someone's mind can do that but I suspect a guilty conscious from her A. She has had this problem her entire life (mistrust) and is part of her issues with the psychiatrist.

2TP - The other thing is that you talk about going dark when perhaps all you need to do is go a little dim.

Rick - Maybe. I'll try this and keep the possibility of D at bay for now.

Just asking, but while your W is with the OM, have you ever thought that there may be a better woman for you out there, esp when friends and family suggets it? I'm not saying mentally cheating but just as a concept. Have you had any issues of woman approaching you now that word about your sitch is known?

Also, how do you feel about snooping from a moral and practical point of view? Whatever I have discovered on my own, or has been brought to me as evidence by my sons has been pretty bad. Some people tell me that I should spy away because I should know sooner than later if a PA has or has not occured. On one hand I feel that if I snoop I am cheating what the universe dicates should be, but on the other hand it is so hard not to snoop on her phone conversations. It just angers me so much when I do though. I'm guess I am going with don't snoop. Besdies when I do I picture myself doing it and feel another ball get lopped off each time.

Once again I really appreciate your thoughts and input. It would be nice talk about how this works out well for both us some day

[rickb89]

Busto - Today, I sent my W 3 dozen flowers and some chocolates and got a mariachi band to go to her work and sing her Candela and I am filing her toenails at her lunch hour and brought her some sushi I rolled for her. Then I texted her a few times and when she didn't respond I called her and cried some and told her FROM MY HEART that I had changed. I e-mailed her a list of 500 doctors and massage therapists she could look into for herself and told her I could drive her to any appointments. I offered to scrub her toilet (with a toothbrush like she likes) and said I didn't mind canceling my plans with my friends cause she was worth it. She patted me on the back and said she felt closer to me.

I'm a little tired, not sure why I feel dissatisfied. Maybe I should try harder. Let her know how I *REALLY* feel. That I will do *ANYTHING* for her.

Rick - ouch! Yeah, that's me to a T. Damn!

Busto - see the msg and video I posted recently on 2tp's page.

Rick - I did. Very helpful. I am definitely already in the ditch and dead.

Busto - I didn't personally date, but I did do social things in groups that included members of the opposite sex.

If she says something, you can simply say, I am a little confused. You fired me as your H. But if I'm hearing you right, you sound concerned/angry/worried about what I am up to?" and then just listen

Rick - that's sound advice and I will really have to be strong to stick to it because my W looks at everything with an eye towards proving deception. That's her problem now and has been all along. It's one of her big issues with her psychiatrist. She is so on the edge in this way. Recently whe I texted her about an issue I said "Bye" to her at the end of the text and she immediately texted me back and called me thinking I meant bye as in goodbye for good. On one hand I could take that as a sign that she still cares but in reality it is probably what 2TP thought. That she is only concerned for purely selfish reasons.

Hey. Thank you so much for your reply. It measn a lot coming from someone who has actually R by using DB & LRT.

_______________________
H 53, W 45
3 sons (24,21,13)
M = 24 yrs
bombed March 2011
live together, separate rooms

[25yearsmlc]

Rick, I feel for you. You are in pain and you are getting a ton of advice, some of which is conflicting.

I will add to that, I'm afraid. This is long one, even for me

But the way I see it, YOU are putting yourself on the road to divorce. Of course your w triggered a lot of this. I am NOT saying all this is your fault.

But awhile back I posted at length to you on what I heard in YOUR words, about your own behavior. And re: your wife---I think she has had one of the worst childhoods and teen years I've heard here. Top 5...and that is saying a lot.

I just watched a film about Marilyn Monroe ("My week with Marilyn"--great film, being overlooked due to lack of marketing money. YOU ought to go see it).

In her life, and like your w, Marilyn Monroe was sexually abused at a young age and had several abortions. She lost her mother at age 8 (your wife lost her father at that age and in Monroe's case there was no father. In your wife's case the mother was so busy with 7 kids and only her income, in effect your wife was an orphan with some siblings).

The only "intimacy" Marilyn Monroe had (which we ALL crave and have a human need for), was sex.

See any pattern in HER life? I think your wife put all her energy into raising the boys AND having a job and hoped her inner issues would work themselves out without her having to face them. She had tremendous deficits as a child and was victimized, more than once. When you married her, the way YOU described it, was that you were saving someone from themselves and I read into that, that you blamed her for a lot of "poor choices". Given her background, I'm amazed at how functioning she is. But she needs serious help. You vowed "in sickness and in health."

Now that her sickness hurts your feelings and pride, you seem to be going with anger...

I'm very glad she's getting help now. Wish it had happened sooner.

When I posted to you, per your request that I be direct, or wanting "2 x 4's", you still glossed over your issues. When I told you how I saw it, and wrote a long post to you,

what I got back mostly (not all, but mostly) was you defending yourself. And explaining yourself. NOT you saying "wow, now I see how it could be viewed that way."

And then you'd ask in a vague way how you could have done it better....
but without specifics its' very hard to say.

Just sounded to me like you were asking how you could get your way. Then you said you often did not get your way

but then you'd repeat the exact same behavior the next time conflicts arose. And the results were the same.

I don't believe your wife's biggest love language is gifts, unless that was a deprivation from childhood. I'd bet compliments that are sincere and are NOT followed with a request, would help....which was a tactic you suggested trying. I say "DON'T"...instead, just validate and listen. Don't get your way at all for now.

If you think about it, all those small "victories" of yours, have cost you so much b/c they ate at her so much.

Before I go any further, let me say 3 other things.

Seeing a L is always a good idea, imo. I am a L, so maybe I"m biased. But knowledge is helpful.

Second, your son's have no business telling you anything about
this.

Finally, make sure your pride is distinct from your self respect.

I had a very hard time with that fine line between the two. There were MANY times I wanted to serve my h papers and be done with it. A lot of that was b/c I felt humiliated. I wanted it to end but I HAD to know I had given it my all and put my ego aside, for awhile.


But your w, (and my h) were not trying to humiliate us. They were lost and confused, and yes, self absorbed, but not trying to hurt us. They were trying to resolve issues that sometimes, had little to do with us.


So beware of acting out of pride or ego or anger. It's usually the punitive way, it never comes from a place of love and it always hurts or ends the marriage.


Finally, I don't think the R with the OM was that big a deal. I did not see it as a threat to your m when all she did was call him long distance.

I believe for a very long time she felt safe in talking with him BECAUSE of the distance. I disagree with Telemark on this issue, at least temporarily. Meaning, in your wife's case, which IS NOT the same as all others (she has real issues)

she felt safe talking to a man who could not make phyiscal demands of her AND who evidently listened to her. All He could do was just listen. Didn't try, like you did, to "fix" it or "find solutions."

You might be shocked to learn that often we women know the "solutions" but simply want to express our emotions about something.

To this day, I cannot stand when I tell my h, about a problem friend or at work and h immediately proposes a one or two sentence "solution" to me. Why?

B/c IT ENDS THE TALK and shuts me up ("gee, guess I'm done since the answer is so obvious") when what I really wanted h to do, was listen to how I FELT!! NOT SOLVE IT....

I think THAT was what your w was trying to get from you. For awhile, that is what she got from OM on the phone. That made you mad. Too bad.

Now that she's met him in person, it may have morphed nto a PA b/c to her, that's intimacy and since she now has shared things with him and he simply listened, she may feel very close to him. But you have sons and history and she once felt great love for you I'm sure. Be the man she fell in love with---and if you try to piece, then court her. Don't just make her the mother of your children.


I still see you with a chance at turning this around. I really do. But here's the thing. Stop thinking each and every problem must be solved then and there or even at all....sometimes you don't have to agree.

Sure, bills need to get paid. Broken faucets need repair. But how often she calls her sister or how she spends her time, after 24 years of m, must she account to you all her hours?

As for her Not doing a lot around the house--big deal. Sorry but why aren't your sons doing the housework? Is the adult son paying rent? Why do I get the feeling she was the maid for 3 grown men and a teen? I guess it's b/c you complained about it and it doesn't make sense to me, especially your nerve and level of involvement in this.

I point blank TOLD my kids that I thought their dad was "confused' when they said "no he's selfish. WHy don't you divorce him?"

Was I right to stay? I hope so, I think so. But I did tell them that I'd let THEM KNOW IF I wanted their opinions....and that it did not help ME or the marriage for them to pipe in with their vast marital experience.

What they really needed from me was reassurance that i would not uproot them to follow their dad, that their lives were stable and I was not going to move them. And that I'd be there for them, no matter where their dad's journey took him....I think your 13 y/o needs that.

Sorry if I'm off on that, but how much housework can there be when there is only 1 13y/o and 2 grown men around? You vacuum, and take out trash and other things every adult does for themself. If your sons are cleaning up after themselves and you are, what's left? Yardwork, okay. Was your w doing that before? Repairs...again, was SHE the one doing those before all this?

Cooking...okay maybe she was the cook. And that is new to you. My solution, since you like those so much... is for you to take a cooking class.

It's one of those GAL that means you meet new people, get in a good mood, learn something new or cool and that pushes your comfort zone AND in your case

it's not exactly suspicious. Although trust me, a lot of women will be in the class. You can tell her you want to make her something special later, or just learn to cook, since you miss hers??

2TP - Can you say DOORMAT?

Rick - Why yes I can. Man, have I let myself get played.


Wow....See, I see pride and anger and "teach her a lesson" here^^^.

I do NOT see doormat. (or the divine)

In fact, she was the doormat in her eyes, for decades. So where's the doormat part? How did she "play" YOU?

That she saw OM and you assume that she got physical, and therefore you are a doormat? For what? Not filing? Is that it? Just so I"m clear...


Time to stop and see where this road leads. Really let the divine universe lead the way (with help from you guys). I actually think this is a big life lesson for me. Learn to trust and walk with the divine. I always thought I was in control of all I was involved in. I stopped listening to the divine whisper and lived within my head.


that^^^^ all sounds fine and great to me, if you mean you'll listen to the divine and WORK ON YOURSELF.

I told you once that the "real journey in life is an inward one". The successful DBers here looked IN first. WE made the changes in our lives and became very attractive/attracting to people in our lives, including eventually our spouses. Takes time!

Your w needs to feel FREE TO CHOOSE you, not pressured to do so.

She has been pressured and manipulated and victimized all her life. If she can see you as a man she can trust

(and you confuse her mistrust of you always, with the issue of sexual fidelity. Rick, there are many ways a man can make his wife feel unsafe and distrustful....) THEN she may be able to see you clearly, without the fog. And if you are the man you CAN be and should be, with that divine spark in you letting the light shine

she can freely choose you.


2TP - know how you feel but I think this is the counter intuitive part of DB'ing. You have to accept that your marriage as it was is FINISHED! Once you do, I think it is easier to then go dark and let the chips fall where they may. Look, the reality is that both you and I may never get our wives back. And frankly, do we want them back in their current form? Doubtful! So, what else is there for us to do. The DB'ing books provide remedies and tools that when used properly may help get things on a new track. Notice I didn't say back on track. You don't want things back on the same track but a new track.


FULL AGREEMENT...>^^^^ Old M needed to go and for that, you can thank her. But Go to Retrovaille if she's willing. if not then for now, Take a communication class by yourself.

I strongly believe you have a hard time just listening. There are exercises for that. (Please don't get offended by that). I just think when you hear her, you are preparing your next response, rather than simply letting her words sink in.

And there is much LESS need for your response, than you realize. That may sound SO contradictory to your life experience and how you want to handle things

but you got yourself here in part b/c of that. THe ONE thing your w was clear about is that she did not want your answers. yet you keep asking us when you get to talk and when you get to speak and "Solve" things.

You are still missing the boat on this one.

But don't get me wrong Rick. I do see some real growth in you.

Let me suggest two responses for you when you feel compelled to give one. Neither response is doormattish, and neither response escalates or blames.

1) IF she revises an event so much you don't even recognize it, do not deny it happened at all or that way. (( I almost called h a liar at one point but then my kids reminded me of an event I had literally forgotten so I'm very glad I kept my mouth shut and gave this reply instead...))

"Wow, I don't recall it that way at all, but I'm sorry it hurt you."

2) If she revises something or mentions something partly (or totally) true and you realized YOU DID screw up something, then you say

"W, if i had it to do over again, I'd do a LOT of things differently."

Both answers show your willingness to own something and both imply or state that YOU would react differently.

Never forget this fact, Rick..right or wrong,

If your w cannot see that marriage to you can be better and different

she won't come back.

So show her that it will be different b/c YOU are different.



Rick - you're so right. I only want a new track and believe that can happen. But of course, I need her to believe in it too.


NO YOU DON'T....you do NOT need HER to believe in it now. Not for a long time. You need to show it to her.

2TP - I forget if you have young kids, but if you have made visitation arrangements with your W, perhaps your GAL can occur during those times when the kids are not under your watch.

Rick - I still live with my W, and our youngest S13 (of three) is at home. Really she does twist any GAL activity at all into an element of mistrust. It's scary that someone's mind can do that but I suspect a guilty conscious from her A. She has had this problem her entire life (mistrust) and is part of her issues with the psychiatrist.

Guilty conscience? Um, how about her mulitple issues from her LIFE and childhood as being the core here??
You told us she had trust issues the whole marriage, way before any OM exists. Don't project your anger and fear onto her here. Don't assume it's guilt --distrust was there before. Of course she has trust issues....wish she'd gotten help for them before.

Rick, is it true that she never saw a T or shrink before the m was threatened?

And you did admit that you were critical of her. And that you did not respect her opinion. Can you see why she would Not want to "discuss" things with you?

i.e., She knows what's coming....

what 180 are you doing for her in that area?



2TP - The other thing is that you talk about going dark when perhaps all you need to do is go a little dim.

Rick - Maybe. I'll try this and keep the possibility of D at bay for now.

Just asking, but while your W is with the OM, have you ever thought that there may be a better woman for you out there, esp when friends and family suggets it?

stop these "Friends" from "helping" you by telling you to cheat. This is NOT part of DBing.

To me Rick, you are doing DB work a few days a week and then the opposite the rest of the time.

Decide which approach to take and DO IT RIGHT and for a decent amount of time. THEN Decide if it's not working.

I can't say you've actually given it a real shot at this point due to how much you were all doing.

I'm not saying mentally cheating but just as a concept. Have you had any issues of woman approaching you now that word about your sitch is known?

Most of us have had this happen. I don't know how others react but I found the attention of OMs mostly great for my ego. Didn't act on it but I also knew I was not choosing to stay married for fear of being alone otherwise. I was being sought so it empowered me in a good way to STAY married, paradoxically.

And yes, I had lost weight and looked better than before. Felt pretty great when I went to my HS reunion and was in better shape than nearly all the rest. Ahhh, the benefits of the DB diet....


Also, how do you feel about snooping from a moral and practical point of view? Whatever I have discovered on my own, or has been brought to me as evidence by my sons has been pretty bad.


STOP your sons from this behavior NOW. It cannot help ANYONE but it sure can destroy THEM, their image of her (which, lets' face it, given how you treated her before and what they saw, was less than respectful. Rick, I bet you wince at that comment. But I'm telling you I read your posts and your replies to my words and what I FELT

what I got as an intuitive feeling that has been consistent from you, is that you think your w is a mental and emotional weakling and she is NOT to be respected.

I think your sons felt that, acted on it, and want to punish her through you. And you must not allow that. If not for her, then for them. How are they going to see women now? And how are they going to treat theirs?

You have to show them a change in YOUR attitude. I think your w is "entitled" to some serious help for her problems from childhood which are NOT HER fault. Like I said, I don't think those problems bothered you nearly so much, til they affected you....


Some people tell me that I should spy away because I should know sooner than later if a PA has or has not occured.

What "people" volunteer this opinion to you? Oh, you are taking a poll? Stop it Rick. That's not DBing. Decide on an approach and give it a real chance.

This poll taking and others involvementsand telling you THEIR thoughts, speaks volumes about how little you have DBd and how you are cornering your wife into surrender/submission

or "Total victory for you" in a divorce. I'm getting a real "pride will dictate" here, instead of the divine guidance. What happened to that?



On one hand I feel that if I snoop I am cheating what the universe dicates should be, but on the other hand it is so hard not to snoop on her phone conversations. It just angers me so much when I do though. I'm guess I am going with don't snoop. Besdies when I do I picture myself doing it and feel another ball get lopped off each time.

Once again I really appreciate your thoughts and input. It would be nice talk about how this works out well for both us some day

Good luck Rick....try hard to listen to the divine in you.

When your actions come NOT from fear or anger or a wounded pride, but from a place of light and love

go with that.

[workinghardguy]

But your w, (and my h) were not trying to humiliate us. They were lost and confused, and yes, self absorbed, but not trying to hurt us. They were trying to resolve issues that sometimes, had little to do with us.

Rick... listen to this^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ in particular.

My W had a screwed up childhood too. Not as screwed up as your W's, but at multiple times she had to take the gun out of her father's mouth as he threatened to commit suicide. That was at the age of 12. I have to imagine that messes with a person. She was kicked out at 15 and homeless for three years. That messes with you too. She rarely saw her mother because when mom came around dad would grab the shotgun and threaten to shoot mom, W, and her sister. That's probably bad for long-term mental health also.

My W has told me the very words 25 is saying. Yes there's other stuff, but down deep this is the issue. And by listening to her and realizing I am powerless to offer any solution I can deal better with this.

I would prefer my W stay in our M and work on her issues, but she says she cannot do that. So then the only other option is to honor her request and let her go do what she needs to do. She will emerge from that a different person. That person may be someone who is attracted to me (I mean... how can she not, really? ) and I may be attracted to her. Or she may never change and then life will go on. Or the new her and the new I might not "click" and life also will go on.

But listen and read closely what 25 says... and then read it again.

[25yearsmlc]

rick

there was a typo or mistake in a sentence where I said YOU had nerve. I meant your son(s) had nerve telling you unsolicited advice AND OR not helping around the house more, AND OR complaining about their mom, if that's the case.

try to protect ALL parties by explaining to your sons that she had it ROUGH in childhood, things (they don't need to know exactly what) happened to her, over a long period of time. She has the "right" to be damaged.

She's not coming from a place of selfishness, imo. She's coming from a place of survival and self preservation. Something in her has gotten very bent over the years, and is possibly broken.

Do what you can to help her heal and let your sons see that she DOES LOVE THEM but she is deeply wounded now.

That helps them and her, and will demonstrate some loyalty on your end (an attractive admirable trait for your sons to see & emulate instead of anger, controlling comments, criticism or a "sad as humanly possible" expression)

b/c even if you are hurt, even if she files for divorce tomorrow, you know she's wounded and you know it's best for your son to feel loved by his mother.

PS--do you understand what I meant when I said you should not be walking around with the "sad as humanly possible" expression? You seemed angry at that comment.

It's NOT that I don't know why you are sad. Of course I do. It's what you are showing others, and your sons and wife.

Rather than going into detail about it here again, just let me know if you understand what I meant now. I didn't know if you addressed that.