DB'ing is soooo hard!

[2thepoint]

"What I don't understand is how she can have the nerve to interogate me about my going to a mini high school reunion in which it was only meeting childhood friends, and then walk out the door to go for a day trip with the OM."

She is projecting and trying to deflect from her own immoral behavior. I would just try to ignore it since you know the truth.

"...she seems to feel that anything I do outside of our marriage indicates that I am fine with a so called separate life."

Let her think that. Remember, it is the WAW who dropped the D bomb. So, all you are doing is giving her exactly what she has asked for and preparing yourself for the possibility of being D from your W. I think it is natural for the LBS to be fearful that W may think you are getting comfortable with the single life and will therefore continue to move on because it is so counter to what we hope will be reaction of the WAS to our detachment.

So, this is the point where time, time and more time is needed for your W's feelings for you to resurface. If you stick to those changes that are the most important to making you a better you. And, sufficient time is given for those changes to take root. And for your W to believe they are for real and are permanent. Then and only then will you have a shot at getting your M back on track.

See, I think if you do this right, eventually your W is going to stop thinking or saying that you seem happier living a separate life. Instead, she is going to want to be a part of that life with you. You just have to hold on and and keep your DB efforts going strong.

I'll repeat what I said about the OM. There is nothing you can do regarding the OM that will help your M except to ignore him as if he doesn't exist. There may come a time if you get to the point of piecing your M back together that you will need to address this issue, but now is not the time. So put it out of your mind and only focus on those things that you can control, namely, YOU!

[rickb89]

2TP - thank you so much for your kind wisdom. I really do appreciate it as I would otherwise find this sitch so difficult to do alone.

I am going back and forth internally deciding whether I should continue GAL in ways that seem only to make my W upset (although her actions make her being upset with me so hypocritical). I have been toying with the idea of dropping my Facebook conversations with friends (which she scrutinizes continually), and other social activities that only seem to make her mistrust my feelings on our separation. I'm not sure how to approach this but I guess if I increase what has become a monastic/Mr Mom existance she will still never learn to overcome her double standard on the issue of trust. She always has had a huge issue with an inability to trust me around other woman even in the most mundane situations, and then with her own need for constant attention from other men. This is something that is an issue in her current MLC, psychiatric treatment an so on (molested as a toddler), so maybe she will overcome this at last.

So you see, her an I are dealing with the affects of her pschological life crisis, and post traumatic stress reactions, but nonetheless she is working through this by being incredibly self centered, and hypocritical. On one hand I can support her completely as she works through this thing but on the other hand am so hurt by how it is happening.

I have decided to keep a very low profile over the Holidays and up until March (which will be 1 yr since the bomb dropped). That way I can focus on self evaluation, improving myself, etc., and still give her the time/space to work on herself.

What I really hate is how she constantly talks about her happiness everywhere else (work, coworkers, other friends) while I agonize over how I how become so irrelevent in her life.

Tonight we are going to an Irish pub to see a mutual friend play, and then tommorow to her sisters hosue for Thanksgiving. I am very apprehensive that I will be treated as non-existant there as I am at home.

How do you manage to keep a straight face on through the hurt and unfairness? I feel like the more I am showing a face that says I'm okay with this, am GAL, am upbeat, etc; the easier it becomes for her to continue on her solitary path of self enjoyment. And, she has the best of both worlds. I pay the bills, do all the family obligations, etc.; while she has a place to stay and the freedom to do whatever she wants. What do you think?

[2thepoint]

"I have been toying with the idea of dropping my Facebook conversations with friends (which she scrutinizes continually), and other social activities that only seem to make her mistrust my feelings on our separation."

It seems to me that your FB conversations are really just an open book to your W about your comings and goings. If you want to create some mystery then she needs to "wonder" what you are up to. So stop broadcasting what you are doing, planning, etc. I know it is hard. We want our W's to see and acknowledge the changes. But the reality is that they do see the changes, they just don't believe them. At least not at first.

I'm not sure what you mean by "other social activities that seem to make her mistrust...". I think you just have to stop worrying about it. Really!

"Tonight we are going to an Irish pub to see a mutual friend play, and then tomorrow to her sisters hosue for Thanksgiving. I am very apprehensive that I will be treated as non-existant there as I am at home."

WHY? Why are you going places with your W? How is that giving her space? Why do you allow yourself to be subjected to the type of behavior you describe? You need to start bowing out of events with your W. Not all, but some or most. You cannot create mystery when you are spending so much time with your W. See what I'm saying?

"How do you manage to keep a straight face on through the hurt and unfairness? I feel like the more I am showing a face that says I'm okay with this, am GAL, am upbeat, etc; the easier it becomes for her to continue on her solitary path of self enjoyment. And, she has the best of both worlds. I pay the bills, do all the family obligations, etc.; while she has a place to stay and the freedom to do whatever she wants."

Again, the problem here is you are too transparent. There is no mystery and because you allow her to see what you are doing with your GAL activities, she can dismiss you and continue on with her own selfish behavior all the while criticizing you.

You have to come to grips the fact that your W's "solitary path of self enjoyment" is going to continue for quite some time. There is no silver bullet that is going to snap your W out of her fog. Only time and lots of it.

So Rick, my best advice is for you to continue to GAL and make your actions as mysterious as possible. Ignore your W's taunts and outbursts. She is only trying to bait you. You have to resist reacting.

Never forget that it is your W that has chosen this path for your M. So, while she initially had the upper hand in making her choice, it is now time for you to take back control over your own actions and reactions. AND, realize that it is going to take a lot of TIME!

And so you need to ask yourself, are you up for the ride? Can you hang on for the long haul?

Only you know the answer.

[workinghardguy]

2TP... You've come so far!

[rickb89]

2TP - WHY? Why are you going places with your W? How is that giving her space? Why do you allow yourself to be subjected to the type of behavior you describe? You need to start bowing out of events with your W. Not all, but some or most. You cannot create mystery when you are spending so much time with your W. See what I'm saying?

RB89 - I have felt throughout this that if we do things together then we will stay connected, but I have to admit the fact that we do alot together and it has not seemed to bring us closer to reconciling. I admit my fear is that if I bow out as you say then it will be easy for her to disappear from my life. Maybe I'm wrong in this. Maybe I do need to get out of her life as much as possible so she can deal with her crisis and then know for sure how our marriage can fit into all of this. She has said as much so maybe I am actually making it too easy on her. Today while at her sisters for T-dinner I was wondering if a separation to different residences mught be the best. Realistically I cannot afford two residences so if she moved out I would have a very tough time supporting our home and kids alone. So, economics plays a part in this. Most people who write on my thread see the fact that we are still living together to be a blessing. I guess it is and I think you are right that I need to stop making it so easy for her.

2TP - Again, the problem here is you are too transparent. There is no mystery and because you allow her to see what you are doing with your GAL activities, she can dismiss you and continue on with her own selfish behavior all the while criticizing you.

RB89 - it is true that I am transparent. I have always been 100% open with her and I really never was the type that could act one way while feeling another way. I really think I do need to take your advise about moving away from her through this, i.e. giving her space. Tonight I was going to take a ride for a while and I told her I was going out. The look on her face was total suspicion. Again, I never have been a cheater and never will so the look of mistrust is so ridiculous. I know, I need to really step away from her, go dark as much as possible. Mistrust and double standards are her way, not mine, and I am beginning to realize I need to really bow out from her life for now.

2TP - You have to come to grips the fact that your W's "solitary path of self enjoyment" is going to continue for quite some time. There is no silver bullet that is going to snap your W out of her fog. Only time and lots of it.

RB89 - you know, the silver bullet is just what I have been hoping for all along. I keep thinking that she just needs to wakeup and see that we can have a better marriage by applying what we both have learned about oursleves and each other through this trial. It's already gone on for eight months since the bomb dropped and I never imagined that it would be this long. I guess I am using the wrong scale to measure how these things work.

2TP - And so you need to ask yourself, are you up for the ride? Can you hang on for the long haul?

RB89 - You know I wonder about how long I can live like this being so lonely for her, how I can rewrite my inner life so that I think in terms of my life plan in terms of me alone and not married to her. You know with her EA, the disregard for me as her H, the constant pain, my sadness over what our family will be if we divorce, I wonder how long I will go like this.

On the other hand I love her still, and do see that she really is going through something big and critical in her life. Maybe this is the test of unconditional love and I have to see if I'm strong enough to do this. I do want our marriage to be better than it was before.

I thought I knew myself pretty well and have proven myself to be very strong in so many other challenges in my life. This, however, is the hardest thing I have ever been through.

You're advise and your giving of yourself like this is such a credit to you as person. I hope I can be as strong as you appear to be in this. It's funny that I reach out to people like you on this blog and feel I can give very useful heartfelt advise, but then at the same time need advise from people like you to keep staying focused and strong.

Thank you so much!

[workinghardguy]

You know I wonder about how long I can live like this being so lonely for her, how I can rewrite my inner life so that I think in terms of my life plan in terms of me alone and not married to her

And in here lies the problem... I tend to believe words are important and they say a lot of what we're thinking. You chose alone in your description. Not apart from you wife, not divorced, not single... you chose alone. From my vantage point you are scared of being alone. You see yourself through the prism of marriage and not as an independent person. So your two options are a) married to your W or b) alone. But there's a third option... living your life on your terms. This doesn't mean being alone. It means following YOUR path.

Rick is dead on... you have to stop doing things with your W. You do more stuff with your W than I do and I still live with mine! Hell, I can't actually remember the last thing W and I did together. Seriously... might have been an apple orchard trip in September. Yes we spend time together in the house, but even that is mostly apart.

The other piece is that it takes time to get used to being single. You can't do that attached to your W. These weekends where my W works and it's just my S and I, I have been "role playing" like I'm divorced. Doing a test run to see what it is like and to get a sense for how it will feel. I can't say I like all of it, but if I'm honest there are parts that I really enjoy.

[rickb89]

You know I wonder about how long I can live like this being so lonely for her, how I can rewrite my inner life so that I think in terms of my life plan in terms of me alone and not married to her

And in here lies the problem... I tend to believe words are important and they say a lot of what we're thinking. You chose alone in your description. Not apart from you wife, not divorced, not single... you chose alone. From my vantage point you are scared of being alone. You see yourself through the prism of marriage and not as an independent person. So your two options are a) married to your W or b) alone. But there's a third option... living your life on your terms. This doesn't mean being alone. It means following YOUR path.

I was always following my own path (as well as being a H and father) before the bomb dropped but had the priveledge of knowing I had my wife to share it with. I miss that. It's not that I don't feel that I can't move on with my life in areas that are meaningful reflections of me. I just feel such a sad void living without her. I am actually pretty independent by nature, but I really do miss our M.

Rick is dead on... you have to stop doing things with your W. You do more stuff with your W than I do and I still live with mine! Hell, I can't actually remember the last thing W and I did together. Seriously... might have been an apple orchard trip in September. Yes we spend time together in the house, but even that is mostly apart.

I'm Rick! And we do live together but in separate rooms for the past eight months since the bomb dropped. Is staying apart from your W working for you towards a R? I really want to know. Maybe this is another area where doing what is counterintuitive is best? We have been living like this for eight months and I can say there has been some improvement. She has moved away from aggresively saying we are done and there is nothing that can be done about it, to saying that she doesn't think this will work out, to telling me that she is dealing with a total life crisis and is not sure how we will fit into the picture as she moves through this life crisis. On one hand I try to keep her close by just so we stay connected, but it is not fullfilling for me at all when we do stuff together. It's like a bad dream because while I role play being the guy who is fine with this, enjoying her company, etc., I really am constantly thinking how it [censored] to not being acknowledged or treated like a lover, husband, etc. So, maybe by doing that I am just reinforcing for her a constant reminder of how we are not close like we were,and the more I do with her, the more I show her how we have this distance. What do you think? Also, pretty much everything we do is my idea. She is not really making any efforts. Its all me. So basically I work my ass off for her, suffer constant emotional pain while hiding it inside, and then do things with her that remind me of how crappy our sitch is now. Then, I have the constant reminder of her EA, and her incredible double standard in this area. Maybe you're right. Let her come back to me. Let her close the gap. Agree?

The other piece is that it takes time to get used to being single. You can't do that attached to your W. These weekends where my W works and it's just my S and I, I have been "role playing" like I'm divorced. Doing a test run to see what it is like and to get a sense for how it will feel. I can't say I like all of it, but if I'm honest there are parts that I really enjoy.

Okay WHG, maybe I should role play like I am single while I let my W go about solving her life crisis. I find that when I do that I can see she has two typical responses which I have come to know over the past 8 months. One is that she gets nervous and reaches out to me, just to be sure I'm still here, but as soon as she knows I am here she gets dismissive and self centered again. The other response, which drives me crazy and has been her way for our entire marriage, is that she mistrusts many things when I do my own things (not all but enough so that it's always on my mind). I'm talking about things down to the smallest matters which no adult should have a problem with. It's one of her issues that is so obvious everyone knows it about her, including our kids. Nonetheless she has no problem doing anything she wants including and up to an EA and doesn't see the hypocrisy of it. Maybe she will evolve beyond this through her psychiatric sessions and by working on herself but for now it's so ridiculous.

How do you suggest handling a W who is threatened by me GAL and makes her mistrust known? I have been calmly telling her that her thoughts are unfounded and that this current sitch is her choice. If I say that her "fears" (word choice is important) are unfounded she gets very defensive and says that I should find someone else while this goes on, but then admits that she would not like it, but her pride would cause her to hide that it would upset her. Like they say believe half of what you hear. If she doesn't care then why does she keep watching everything I do and commenting on it?

I'm driving myself crazy with this. I will be "going dark" for a time, letting her go, not planning things for us but letting her come back to me, not getting baited by her issues, not letting the double standard rule me, not focus on the EA, GAL in spite of her mistrust. I guess I have made this sitch too easy for her.

I thnk you much for being such a good guy and taking the time to provide your valuable input.

[rickb89]

Okay all you fellow DB'ers. I am seeking your wisdom.

I am going to a lawyer today to get the facts about divorce. I want to know what the reality of divorce law is in case this doesn't work out, and I want to have the facts with me as I walk through this minefield of daily horror.

I am really at a crossroads internally.

On the one hand:

- my W is in the midst of a life crisis, is seeing a psychiatrist, and is on anti-anxiety meds
- has made it clear that she understands that she will need time to work through this, but needs to do it this way (alone) if she is going to put her life together
- seems to be making better connections back to me as her H, and to our boys
- has stopped saying things like our M is not going to work at all to at least being open that there may be a future
- talks about our home and projects as if we are going to be living there in the long term
- does stuff with me all the time and that has changed radically since the bomb dropped
- I still love her, believe we can work it out if both pursue that, and take my marriage/spiritual vows to her very seriously

On the other hand:

- she is completely self-absorbed, has alienated me, our boys, family and friends; and does not even seem to be aware of her self-centeredness
- have lived in separate rooms from me for 8 mos, shows no affection to me whatsover, and acts as if we had not been married for 24 yrs
- does whatever she wants, whenever she wants with no real regard for me, and no apologies
- is in a full blown EA, and possible PA. I can't prove the PA but believe it more than not. If I were to list the evidence here most people would agree that yes, PA.
- has lied to me and the kids and been caught a number of times
- has total disregard for its affects on me and others
- I worry that her signs of small improvements and being kinder may only be a ruse by her to buy time and get her new life in order. i.e try to get a relationship back with the kids and family, set herself up with the OM, and once that is done leave me for good.

The loving side of me say bear this out, keep busy, keep the end goal in mind but stop suffering the present.

The daily hurtng side of me says to move-on, make her work her way back to me but don't wait for her to do that. The A makes me incredible angry and hurt and while I am being so patient with her, she has no regard for the damages this is causing.

I don't want to leave a legacy of divorce to my sons. I want to see this through to its conclusion but literally hate the double standard we are living under.

____________________________________________________________

H 53, W 45
M - 24 yrs
Sons - 24,21,13
bomb delivered - March 2011

[2thepoint]

Hi Rick! Just checking in on you to see how you are doing. What's happening? How did the visit with the L go. Any new developments in your sitch? How are you feeling, emotionally and physically?

Hope all is well!

[2thepoint]

Hi Rick, I see you posted on my thread so I'm just going to respond to your questions here......

"I want to ask you your opinion, and Busto's as well. I am sick of my wife's ongoing A, and my 3 sons (two still living at home) are horrified by it and want me to leave her. I am at a DB crossroads. As long as my W continues the EA, lives in the house and gets a free ride (like your sitch 2TP she gets everything tsken care of by me - kids, finances, household work, etc.) she will never be motivated to R. She will not willingly leave the house and I have asked her too. And I refuse to leave as a matter of principle, and I don't want to give her an edge by leaving if we do D."

My initial reaction was that one of you should move out. But you have tried that and no one is willing to budge so on to plan B.

I think I may have suggested this to you earlier or elsewhere on this forum but I think the time has come for you to go dark or very dim. First you need to stop going places with your W (I know I've suggested that to you before). See if there is a friend that you can stay with for a few nights each week. Getting away from the daily reminder will work wonders on your mental well being. Also, you are creating the space that is needed to allow your W to feel a little uncomfortable. And... you aren't really moving out, just spending time away from the sitch.

Further, by being away for a few days each week, you create considerable MYSTERY. Your W will wonder what the hell you are up to. And truth be known, it is none of her damn business considering the circumstances. This is taking the control away from your W and putting it squarely in your hands.

"I am seeing D as the only way to shake it up, but obviously this is a pretty big step and leaves maybe no room for a R. I'm not sure what I can do to find some other alternative solution. I adsmit we still do a lot together and I have been thinking its a means to stay connected, but I don't know. Maybe it just makes it easier for her to take advantage of my love and support. What do you guys think about D as an answer? When I go dark at home with her, or engage in any GAL activity she immediately has a problem with it. Right now I am holding on quietly to get through the Holidays for the kids sake, but then I think I will go dark on her and no doing things together. Be ready to drop the D on her if she pisses me or the kids off too much more. Thoughts?"

You know Rick, only you can decide when/if D is the answer. Sometimes I suppose pulling the trigger on the D may be the catalyst that is needed to get things moving. But have you tried everything there is? Have you used all the arrows in your quiver?

Your W is controling you and you need to take back that control from her. She is not willing to budge so you need to make a move...and stick to it! When she gets PO'd when you try to go dark, that is her exercising control. Since she is the one who initiated all this mess, you should simply remind her with a smile on your face and in your tone, that this is what she wants and so you are simply giving her space. Then leave the room. Don't engage any further. Let her scream, rant and rave, etc. Leave the house and go for a walk then go do your GAL activities.

Rick, please don't take this the wrong way, but it realy sounds like your W has your nutts in a lock box. You need to grab the key, get them back and go GAL.

So, when are you going to make a move?