wife won't admit PA with OM

[2thepoint]

"You feel there should be no ultimatums because you were the one that cheated. You were the one that went outside your marriage. So you empathize with the person that has a PA or EA."

Uh, sorry to butt in here but I think you've got your sitch's mixed up. I don't believe 25 was ever involved in a PA. It was her H who ditched her and the family for a REAL LONG TIME!

Besides, I thought you weren't going to get into a pissing match. You've made your point, 25 has made hers. Lets get back to Jake, shall we?

[greenblue90]

So Jake what are you doing to GAL.

[25yearsmlc]

25
I did not mean at all for Jake not to keep working on himself, that to me is a given. OM or not, together or divorced Jake has a lot to work on.

That being said he may need to consider some work on co-dependence. Find his own self worth away from his wife.

I get that.

Clearly his W is addicted to the rush sneaking around with OM gives her. Like many drug addicts and alcoholics, Jake needs to be careful not to enable her.

Not sure I buy the "addict" label HERE....she's been caring for a disabled d for years, and working nights and not getting couple time, and Jake had his issues too. I think she wanted an escape and some romance and was lonely in her m. But hey, I don't know her. OR Jake, for that matter. So I'm just speculating. But I think we toss out some labels a bit too often.

Just think about it.


Some addicts hit rock bottom on their own. These are the easy cases.


Jake has chosen to enable in the hopes that she looks at him favorably if and when she hits rock bottom.


Guess we'll have to agree to disagree GB. But we want Jake's family intact and happy.

Accuray

You're right in that Jake can't make his wife face her choices, but he can enable her so she doesn't have to.

Let me ask you this, is there a line to be drawn? Ever? What if she wants OM to move in? Should he tolerate that too?

What if she starts sending him money? That happened to someone here. Should he ignore this too?

GB, I think there's some major projecting here. I mean, sure, IF THIS^^^ happens we can all shriek. But you are doing some signficant futurizing here, and it's all negative. How about seeing the downside of all this vague boundary setting? Or the upsides of his positives OR...

OR be specific. What is it you want him to DO or SAY?


It's up to Jake to decide how much he will tolerate. I do know what it's like to be afraid to let go. So I can empathize.

I think part of your growth has to include examining why you can't let go of what is quickly turning into a dysfunctional relationship.

I know the kids play a huge part of this, and I know I have no good advice for that. All I can say is to stop and think what type of environment you are creating. I keep hearing that kids are smart and they can pick up certain vibes between the parents.

Good luck Jake. You certainly have a variety of opinions to ponder and though that can confuse, it's beneficial too.

Can you hire a DB coach to sort things out? I found them very clarifying.

[25yearsmlc]

[quote=Sad_but_happy]25, Please stop telling me what DB is and is not.

Just yes, my advice is part DB and part SBH. Just as yours is part DB and part 25.

Trust me when I tell you that I understand your position. You feel there should be no ultimatums because you were the one that cheated. You were the one that went outside your marriage. So you empathize with the person that has a PA or EA. I do not.

You are mistaken. Read my signature. I did not have an affair. 5-7 years ago my h went on a trek/journey, to which his family and I were not invited.

But YES I do empathize with a woman who is lonely in her m. 20 years ago I CONSIDERED having an affair, but I ruled it out. I said to you that in your eyes, it seems it would be morally the same as if an affair had occured, based on how you kept harping about how your wife was so "WRONG WRONG WRONG!!" to have had what you called an EA. (Yes you put it in caps and bold and ended with many exclamations.)

I worked out my internal conflict before it hurt my m, with the aid of a great chaplain and a relatively worthless shrink. I learned a lot about myself including being less judgemental and not seeing things in black and white so much.

But I did all that without my h shaming me or "exposing me" and I told you then, that had he tried to do that, I'd have left him.

So before you hurl rocks, get your facts straight.

If I have you pegged right, you'll want to keep arguing HERE, on Jake's thread. Instead, why not get your own?

THen you can invite people there to fight with you.



You talk often about "not keeping score". Well I DO believe that a spouse is MORE wrong when they go outside the marriage.
Because both spouses contributed to the demise of the marriage pre affair. Both did wrong. Both were at fault. But only one took the next step and committed the ultimate betrayl. Only one decided to sneak and lie and cheat.

Now, you can call me angry or bitter or unforgiving or "a score keeper". But I tell you that I am none of those.

I am a person that believes that an affair is wrong and nearly unforgivable in a M. Yes 25, sleeping with another person is MORE WRONG and MORE HURTFUL than not picking up your socks for three years.

And please tell me where in DB it says the allow your S to cheat right in front of your eyes. Laying boundaries is the very foundation of DB. My boundary is no tollerance to a cheating spouse. And you take offence to that because you were a cheating spouse.


I was NOT a "cheating spouse". And For God's sake, SBH, I also never suggested DBing says to allow or enable "cheating in front of your eyes".

I'm amazed at how you twist what others say even when our words are written.

Read with objectivity, and react to what is said, not what you fear.

Maybe if you read what I said earlier about my experience, or just my signature blcok, you would not keep saying I went outside my marriage. That's a lie, and an insult.

You warped what I wrote so much, that I can only imagine how it would be to discuss things with you in person.


You extremize what someone who disagrees with you says. You cannot simply disagree. You bludgeon with your opinion, toss out insults in "public" and yes, that does offend me.

I think you are a bully SBH. You surely don't sound like a happy forgiving man.

You have lied to me about me, twice now.

Jake, good luck. I'm not abandoning, but I don't like getting sucker punched by an abusive person. I don't need this.

And Jake, You really do sound mostly like an honorable man trying to do what's right. I happen to believe with all her flaws, your w wants to do the right thing too,

(if you do reconcile, try very hard not to assume the worst of her or her motives, and believe me, your r will improve)....

But she's been lonely as heck, and per you, pretty neglected. Maybe she doesn't see another way out.

Show her that way out Jake...

[Accuray]

Jake,

GreenBlue's perspective on addiction and enabling is well-covered in Dobson's "Love Must Be Tough". If his line of thinking speaks to you, read that book. I read it, and DB, and several others, and was able to come up with a "cocktail" that worked for me by combining the relevant parts of each.

Through my reading and experience, I have come to believe there are many different types of affairs, and people pursue them for vastly different reasons. I did some Google work on that topic and there have been some good things written.

In my W's case (if it helps), I have come to believe she was having an "exit affair". She was unhappy in the marriage, but didn't have the motivation to do anything about it because she was scared -- scared of disappointing me, scared to be alone, scared of what divorce meant. By pursuing an affair, she established that there could be life beyond the marriage, she established an outlet for her bottled-up feelings, and she was able to gain some perspective. This gave her the catalyst to bring things to a head.

That's a different motivation than someone who has been "sex starved" and is looking to get their physical needs met. That's different than someone who loves to have their ego stoked by being pursued, etc. etc.

SOME people who have affairs follow the profile of "an addict", and some do not. It's obviously easier to identify a serial cheater as an addict, but even then the addiction may not be the root cause of the issue.

What my DB coach convinced me of is that the affair is not the cause of your issues, it's a symptom of your issues. If you treat the affair like an addiction for the purpose of ending the affair, there is still a hole in your spouse's life that they are going to look to fill.

It's easy to focus on the affair, because that's what's causing you immediate pain, but focusing on "fixing" that is a red herring. MY understanding of DB is that if you fix the root cause of the relationship issues, then affairs will no longer be a problem.

You and your wife both have needs. Pretend for the sake of argument you each had 10 "needs" that had to be met for you to feel good. You probably got to the point where one or both of you were only getting 1 or 2 of the ten met. THAT is the root of the issue, not the affair.

If you were both getting all 10 met, there would be no reason to look outside the marriage -- in fact, you wouldn't have the time or emotional energy to do so because you'd be consumed by your marriage. If you spend 30 - 60 minutes talking to your W every night, she'll be less interested in finding someone else to talk to because she's had her outlet.

When you come to crisis, you need to look at your "inventory of needs". Some of them you may need to start satisfying on your own, or finding another way to have them met. This goes to GreenBlue's point of being less co-dependent. In some ways you have to learn to validate yourself and make yourself happy.

That said, you will still have an inventory that you will expect to be satisfied through your relationship. Then, you have to understand your W's list, and recognize that they may be very different from yours, and that doesn't make them wrong.

Once you know what her list is, you decide if it's something you are willing and able to satisfy. If not, you're probably not going to make that marriage work. Otherwise, you need to get busy figuring out how to satisfy those needs -- even if they are incompatible with your own.

I guess that's the root of my advice for you -- pursuing explanations from your wife, setting boundaries, checking up on her, none of it will ultimately get you back on track. It will help with the symptoms in the short term.

Others can rightfully argue that you can't even start to make progress with OM involved. They are right that you can't make progress together, but you can get a head start on you. I believe that if you make enough progress on yourself, then dealing with the symptom takes care of itself and you don't have to go through those gymnastics.

If it doesn't take care of itself and you've become a better, more self-confident person, then you won't care as much when it doesn't work out, because you'll feel good about you.

Either way you come away happier than if you get consumed in the surveillance / blame game.

Your thread has gone WAY crazy, how are you doing?

Accuray

[jake999]

Hey all,

Thank you everyone for providing so much of your input and thoughts. Even if the advice conflicts I enjoy reading it and trying to let it all soak in.

25, I think you have me mixed up with another poster somewhere because my W doesn't work and we don't have a disabled d….

Last night:

We went to our 6th MC session last night. For the last day or two she had been seeming pretty distant and I felt like something was bothering her, but I didn't nag her about it like I normally would have. Well, I found out why she was acting that way… she decided to discuss the A and snooping with the MC last night. Previously, we had not mentioned any of it during the MC sessions, instead focusing on everything else. So, I think she was preparing for the worst.

This was a pretty big relief to me since it was sorta like having a big elephant in the room that no one was talking about. She stuck to her original story about the alleged A with the MC. The MC was awesome in that he directly asked me if I thought an A occurred and is still occurring… so I just had to answer that as opposed to saying it directly.

I said that I have been living assuming an A occurred and that I am leaning towards it likely not still happening. My W admitted that the "friendship" was inappropriate and wrong for all the obvious reasons. She justified all of her actions and downplayed the whole thing to just a friendship. The MC asked me to detail some of the evidence I had and my W responded basically saying that everything was taken out of context. She used the excuse that her female friend was trying to hook-up with his male friend and my W and the OM were the middle people in that and established a friendship in the meantime. She said that the OM filled a need of attention she had since she had stopped talking to me. I don't really get that because she wouldn't need his attention had she not stopped talking to me.

My W admitted to talking to the OM again the last week, which I previously posted about. She claims it was to facilitate some kind of return for something her mother bought from the OMs store. I believe that story because there were calls/texts to her mom around the time she was talking to the OM again. And the phone calls to the OM were only like 15 minutes, so I can see that being sorta a "how are you doing" kinda conversation. The MC understood her logic in talking to the OM and made it very clear to her that she is to break all communication with the OM, no exceptions. My W agreed to this when the MC said it because he basically told her that whatever the reason is for communicating with him, it should not be a higher priority to her than repairing her M. Let's hope it sticks this time.

My W deleted his number from her phone on our car ride home. I know that its not hard for her to send him a message on Facebook or maybe her friend has his number in her phone, but really there's nothing else she can do other than deleting the number and promising again not to talk to him. Maybe this time hearing it from the MC will work?

I admitted to all the snooping I had done. I thought the MC was going to come down hard on me for that but he sorta rationalized it for me. I made it clear that I wasn't justifying my snooping, but rather explaining why I had done it. I also agreed to stop snooping.

The MC left us with the direction that we need to make this whole A stuff completely transparent to each other. He made it clear to my W that if I have questions, even if they are the same questions over and over, that she has to answer them. The only problem I have is that my W is sticking to the same story so for me to continue to hear what I consider the same lies over and over is not going to help. I really don't buy into her story and there's nothing she can tell me to change my mind, other than admitting to an A. But, if an A never happened that will obviously never happen. I guess I just have to live with never knowing… if something happened and she didn't admit to it by now, why would she?

So this whole MC session was a success I feel. I felt great once we left and we both have been a lot happier towards each other.

My current course of action is largely the same as my last few posts. I am working on the things discussed in the MC sessions, doing 180s on a lot of other stuff, and really just trying to demonstrate the positives about myself. I am kinda thinking about it in my head as being in some sort of competition with the OM about who is more fun to be around. I envy his position though because all he has to do is lend his ear, give biased advice, and be a blast to hang out with for a few hours. All the "changes" I'm making are really things that I should do regardless of whatever my W has done or is doing or will be doing. They will make me a better person for myself.

Thoughts?

[Accuray]

That's awesome Jake! You are super lucky. As you can probably tell by the advice you're getting the situation is often much worse. The fact that your W is willing to discuss this with the MC and admit what she has done is a betrayal speaks very well for her.

Did you discuss the fact with the MC that you don't believe what she's telling you? It sounds like she's saying it was like a big episode of "Three's Company" where everything is a double entendre taken out of context.

If you don't believe her and this continues to eat away at you, it becomes another elephant in the room, so maybe you do want to discuss at your next MC session. A word of warning that you may at some point get an ultimatum from your W that you need to stop questioning and "get with the program". No one likes to feel doubted forever. When she makes that ultimatum, you don't NEED to accept it. Just think about how you might handle it.

With regard to trying to compete with OM, that's generally not a good idea. Your goal should be to stop thinking about OM at all and think about your marriage. For most of us, we *can't* compete with OM.

-- OM is "new and different", we are the well-worn shoe, that while comfortable, may not be that interesting
-- OM has no baggage -- you have all your prior hurts and relationship issues
-- OM has no built in issues to deal with -- no in-laws, no shared bills, no parenting issues
-- OM has no shared chores or other responsibilities -- no reason to feel resentful if the garbage isn't taken out, etc.

Jake, you have all those things, and you have also "trained" W how to think about you and how to interact with you over the course of your marriage. Even though you will make improvements and change your approach to things, the synapses in W's brain from years of conditioning are well-established. It takes time to remap your relationship.

The bottom line is that trying to compete with OM will only lead to frustration and feelings of inadequacy.

I had the misfortune in my snooping to read weeks worth of correspondence between W and OM. She had NEVER been that loving with me over the course of our marriage and that made me feel like cr@p. Eventually it lead to jealousy.

I still don't get that affection, and I never will, because a 17 year relationship will never be like a 6 month affair.

Save yourself the angst and don't go there!

Accuray

[MrBond]

Sounds like it's going in a good direction.

[25yearsmlc]

Hey all,

Thank you everyone for providing so much of your input and thoughts. Even if the advice conflicts I enjoy reading it and trying to let it all soak in.

25, I think you have me mixed up with another poster somewhere because my W doesn't work and we don't have a disabled d….

JAKE, Mea culpa.

I think I got ticked off and distracted by other "stuff". And Yes I did misstate that. But I reviewed your thread today so I have to say I still, more or less feel the same.

Your wife does SAY she wants to work on the m (better than many situations here) and you said you did believe you shared some of the responsibility for the problems.

Though your 180s have been inconsistent, I stand by my belief that you do want to work on the marriage and be the better man, and I definitely urge you to stay on course with that, no matter what.

If you do feel fully reconciled or at least fully in piecing, consider Retrovaille, b/c it's a strong program for people in crisis, with a strong record.

And when you are given the choice between two views of an event and each is more or less just as likely, work on believing the best of your partner.

Gives them something to live UP to. Make sense?


Last night:

We went to our 6th MC session last night. For the last day or two she had been seeming pretty distant nd I felt like something was bothering her, but I didn't nag her about it like I normally would have. Well, I found out why she was acting that way… she decided to discuss the A and snooping with the MC last night. Previously, we had not mentioned any of it during the MC sessions, instead focusing on everything else. So, I think she was preparing for the worst.

This was a pretty big relief to me since it was sorta like having a big elephant in the room that no one was talking about. She stuck to her original story about the alleged A with the MC. The MC was awesome in that he directly asked me if I thought an A occurred and is still occurring… so I just had to answer that as opposed to saying it directly.

I said that I have been living assuming an A occurred and that I am leaning towards it likely not still happening. My W admitted that the "friendship" was inappropriate and wrong for all the obvious reasons. She justified all of her actions and downplayed the whole thing to just a friendship. The MC asked me to detail some of the evidence I had and my W responded basically saying that everything was taken out of context. She used the excuse that her female friend was trying to hook-up with his male friend and my W and the OM were the middle people in that and established a friendship in the meantime. She said that the OM filled a need of attention she had since she had stopped talking to me. I don't really get that because she wouldn't need his attention had she not stopped talking to me.

you need to explore this so you "do get it" or she revises or something. It's crucial that you can fix this or that she sees it differently OR both...


My W admitted to talking to the OM again the last week, which I previously posted about. She claims it was to facilitate some kind of return for something her mother bought from the OMs store. I believe that story because there were calls/texts to her mom around the time she was talking to the OM again. And the phone calls to the OM were only like 15 minutes, so I can see that being sorta a "how are you doing" kinda conversation.

The MC understood her logic in talking to the OM and made it very clear to her that she is to break all communication with the OM, no exceptions. My W agreed to this when the MC said it because he basically told her that whatever the reason is for communicating with him, it should not be a higher priority to her than repairing her M. Let's hope it sticks this time.

My W deleted his number from her phone on our car ride home. I know that its not hard for her to send him a message on Facebook or maybe her friend has his number in her phone, but really there's nothing else she can do other than deleting the number and promising again not to talk to him. Maybe this time hearing it from the MC will work?

I admitted to all the snooping I had done. I thought the MC was going to come down hard on me for that but he sorta rationalized it for me. I made it clear that I wasn't justifying my snooping, but rather explaining why I had done it. I also agreed to stop snooping.

you did not "justify" it but you explained it...um, okay...and you agreed to Stop Snooping...Hope you live by that.

The MC left us with the direction that we need to make this whole A stuff completely transparent to each other. He made it clear to my W that if I have questions, even if they are the same questions over and over, that she has to answer them. The only problem I have is that my W is sticking to the same story so for me to continue to hear what I consider the same lies over and over is not going to help.

that "only problem" is what? I think it's YOURS Jake ....you had a mc believing her and you mostly did, so what's up with not believing her, now?? If you did not believe her then why pretend all was well last night when you had the chance to say "hey wait a minute." Is it b/c you know how it sounds coming from you?



I really don't buy into her story and there's nothing she can tell me to change my mind, other than admitting to an A.


WOW...then what is the point of asking her ANY questions about it? Ever? You have no reason to now that you admit NOTHING she says will change your mind. If that is literally true and NOTHING she says can change your mind, That is irrational Jake. And What a situation to corner yourself into...


But, if an A never happened that will obviously never happen. I guess I just have to live with never knowing… if something happened and she didn't admit to it by now, why would she?

So this whole MC session was a success I feel. I felt great once we left and we both have been a lot happier towards each other.

ironic thing to say, given you believe she's lying to you and the mc. But I guess I just hope you work on accepting you may never know and that does not matter IF you are commited now and from this day forward.

Do you think she's fake being committed to the marraige, and if so, why?


My current course of action is largely the same as my last few posts. I am working on the things discussed in the MC sessions, doing 180s on a lot of other stuff, and really just trying to demonstrate the positives about myself. I am kinda thinking about it in my head as being in some sort of competition with the OM about who is more fun to be around.

I envy his position though because all he has to do is lend his ear, give biased advice, and be a blast to hang out with for a few hours. All the "changes" I'm making are really things that I should do regardless of whatever my W has done or is doing or will be doing. They will make me a better person for myself.

Thoughts?

seeing a father lovingly interact with the children gives you a HUGE advantage. It's a turn on to mothers. And you have history! There is great comfort in familiarity that is under rated too.

Sure, he is "new". But I would not trade places with him if I were you and if your personal work is real.

Good luck

[greenblue90]

Jake
Just letting you know how happy I am for you. She came clean, and with the help of the MC you have a new boundary. Im sure glad it worked out this way.

My best advice now is to not stress about the past, or her reasons for coming clean now. All that is in the old marriage. You are building a new one, I don't think you'll ever get a clear answer so you are better moving on. The inverse of that is assuming that she did and learning to forgive and trust from there. Either way you go, you must put the past behind you. Focus on a brighter future.

I also think you should stop snooping. It'll just creat divisions between you two. Here's where I deviate from others. IF something is glaringly suspicious, it's ok to ask her for an explanation. Dont be angry or accusatory, just make sure she understands how what she may be doing may look suspicious.

Sounds like she may be just as eager to clear up any misunderstandings. Now this is GB, but I think for at least a few months, its ok to check the phone bill once a month. I know most will disagree, but I think it'll go a long way to see that your W is really being honest. If she slips once again calmly ask for an explanation.

If she does a good job being open and honest, you'll find the urge to snoop slowly decrease over time.

Remember boundaries as long as they are reasonable and lovingly enforced are actually a good thing.