wife won't admit PA with OM

[greenblue90]

Not to be a jerk, but it sounds like you got yourself a marriage of convenience. On both your ends.

Just know that right now she has no reason to change. She will probably keep at it with OM and may even get more obvious. IMHO the only way I see her not bein with OM is if he gets tired of messing around with a married woman. Then again what's to stop her from getting another OM.

I think DB is great, no better way of getting a spouse back than helping them see what a great partner they are losing.

As of now she gets new and improved Jake, and dreamy OM.

You are right Jake, this is your sad reality. The sad reality you choose to accept.

[Accuray]

GreenBlue,

Normally I really enjoy your posts and your advice -- in this case I think you're being a bit extreme. You're implying that Jake can make his wife change by taking some action (moving out, making demands, etc.). In effect, escalating the situation will help because it won't allow his W to maintain what she's doing.

Jake has said that if he does that, his W leaves and he does not want that. Reading between the lines, I think you're saying that's OK because it will force a crisis that may cause his wife to re-evaluate or at least not allow her to continue to cake-eat.

I've posted it on other threads: DB is not perfect, it doesn't always work. In my view, it's the "least worst" approach because the others seem to yield consistently inferior results.

When marriage is in crisis, there needs to be motivation for both parties to want to go forward. There are two types of motivation, negative and positive. Negative motivation is effectively the fear that things will be worse through divorce (worse for the kids, worse financially, etc.) To GreenBlue's point, negative motivation is not enough to make it work -- it's a marriage of convenience in which neither party is really invested.

I don't believe this is Jake's only motivation -- if it were, he wouldn't be here. He's saying that the negative motivation is keeping them both at the table, but I believe his positive motivation is that he loves his wife and truly wants her back invested in the marriage.

Other positive motivation includes truly enjoying each other, shared happy memories, making each other laugh, having someone to trust, etc. That's what you start to rebuild through DB *if* you can do it, and it's hard!

Accuray

[greenblue90]

Yes it is good to build all these things, but why would she drop OM if she could have both these things AND OM.

Especially since Jake is projecting that he won't leave no matter what she does.

[greenblue90]

Sorry for the double post, actually a big portion of DB is rooted in making the walk away spouse face their choices.

Going dark is just another way of saying:

"fine run away, see how you like it"

LRT is well, LRT enough said

Even simple things like stopping R talk tell the WAS: "ok this is what you want, go ahead"

Here's the thing, Jake doesn't have to be a jerk.

Instead of saying:

"I checked up on you! You have been lying, it's him or me!"

He could say:

"I noticed on the bill you are still in contact, I guess he means more, and I can't compete with that. I don't want you to leave, but I think you should take some time to consider who means more to you."

[Accuray]

actually a big portion of DB is rooted in making the walk away spouse face their choices.

That's not what I took from it. What I took away is that you *can't* make the WAS face their choices.

I also read "Love Must Be Tough" by Dobson and that book has a lot to say about cake eating and is more consistent with what you're saying GreenBlue, but parts of it are contradictory to DB.

"I noticed on the bill you are still in contact, I guess he means more, and I can't compete with that. I don't want you to leave, but I think you should take some time to consider who means more to you."

When you say "take some time", what does that mean? She is taking her time now. If you're proposing an ultimatum, once again I don't know if Jake is there yet.

The LRT is literally, "The Last Resort Technique" when nothing else has worked.

This is all situational -- I think it's good there is disagreement on Jake's thread as it points out there is no one way to go. He can read all our perspectives and find the one that he feels best matches his situation.

Here's my take on ultimatums -- they CAN work. If your wife always had to make all the decisions in the relationship and had to be "responsible" for everything, she may appreciate you making an ultimatum becuase is represents a 180 -- it indicates that you're going to start making decisions and asserting some control.

If your W grew up in a family with strict parents, or alternately in a family with too little structure, she may appreciate an ultimatum because having the boundary set helps her to feel secure. (There are multiple mens' books that talk about the value of this -- setting limits that may upset your wife on the surface, but deep down establish a base of security)

Finally, an ultimatum may really provoke the crisis that causes W to face the consequences of her actions and come back to the marriage.

In other situations, it's a horrible idea. If your marriage was characterized by control issues where your W felt you controlled her or were overbearing, an ultimatum is just going to reinforce that and push her out the door.

If your W is competitive and likes to "find her own way", being told what to do may drive her away just to spite you.

If your W is truly "on the fence" and believes she loves OM more than she loves you, but is not quite ready to give up on you yet, then the ultimatum may push her away before you have had sufficient time to improve upon yourself and prove it.

When you say "choose him or choose me", she may choose him.

When you're ready to enforce the "or else", you're pretty near to the end yourself -- you've come to terms with walking away and being alone. You have gotten yourself to the place where you have less to lose.

Jake, you know your wife better than anyone. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not a professional, and my advice is free -- often you get what you pay for.

Accuray

[25yearsmlc]

obviously, I agree w/Accur...

sbh, I recall when all your posts were in caps with exclamations about how "WRONG!!!" your wife was, and nearly all you focussed on was your w's behavior. I notice you still have a need to feel right, and in a way that insults and makes others wrong.

If you want to suggest a non DB course of action, admit it. But don't insist that DB is wrong b/c you disagree with it

and don't insult me or bully. Your nasty comments were out of line. That isn't DBing either, fyi.

Jake, There is a reason DBing does not promote ultimatums. It's okay to disagree with it. Actually, I had an Internal timeline in my mind when I was going thru our marital crisis, b/c I simply had to know it would end at some point, for my own mental health. I never shared it with h. Didn't see a need to. And it didn't get to that time.

But the DB approach was amazing to me b/c it empowered ME in my situation by putting the focus on what I COULD control. Not what my h was "doing to me"...or how "wrong" his behavior was. (That's all I heard at MC's meetings and in other books. H was "being selfish, acting single, forgetting his family, etc. Even though that sometimes made me feel vindicated, it did not help our marriage.

What I wanted, and think you want as well, is to design a campaign for a true reconciliation.

DBing opened my eyes to my own behaviors and how I contributed to the issues in my m.

That was very very different from other approaches that identify behaviors or try to explain them, but don't get to how to fix them.

Though I'm obviously a DB fan, there are times I voice discomfort with their approach as I understand it. But When I express an opinion that might not fit DBing, I admit it up front and say "I'm not sure," or, "maybe this isnt' great DBing but hey, I'm flawed too..."

b/c we are all human and cannot follow any approach that is so different and new, 100% of the time (or any radically new diet for that matter ).


So Jake, as Acc says, you know your wife better than anyone else.

Be your best self.

I'm glad you are not going to snoop anymore.

If there was a behavior you suspected, that you could verify AND that you were SURE you'd divorce her for, then snooping to verify ONCE, would make sense.
That does not apply here. Remember that.


If you KNOW things that you have done that pushed her in his direction

really own them to HER. And go from there.
At least she'll know

you are trying AND That you "get" what was missing from your end. Not that you are some hapless h "trying and fumbling" b/c you are not.
(Not saying she thinks you are).

But if she KNOWS you get it, and that you are working on things, hard, then she'll have to own her choices for real.

For a wife and mother to realize that she's knowingly ending a marriage or risking it, for an OM, and hurting her kids...deeply...and hurting you WHILE you are working on yourself and becoming the best man you can be, (a man only a fool would leave...and a great father too)...

Jake, that takes some serious changing on her end if she's half the woman you say she is, and I think she's very torn.

I think that all this^^^, takes time to sink in. I never expected her to wake up & snap out of it, over night, plus- you must concede your changes have been inconsistent.

Hopefully the MC will talk about your changes, AND your needs from her then...

I'm not saying you never get to address this Jake. You do. I'm saying you are not in a place where you have the leverage you want or need

BUT you see that. And you're doing something about it. What other options are there --that you would be alright with?

You have decided, none.

And that's okay. I get it, and from what you have said here, it makes sense.

Good luck

[25yearsmlc]

Yes it is good to build all these things, but why would she drop OM if she could have both these things AND OM.

Especially since Jake is projecting that he won't leave no matter what she does.

GB, because if she's half the mother and wife she once was, I should think that she will find the inner motivation. Most married women with children, don't want to have long term A's and be moms and wives...I don't know any. She wants resolution of this, not prolonging. At least imo.

Statistically men are more likely to carry on long term affairs and want the best of both worlds, etc. Women veer toward wanting resolution of the issue, one way or the other. I'm hoping Jake gets her to slow down and see all the UPSIDES of being with Him and the kids and not the ruination of a family, the upheaval and pain.

GB, are you suggesting Jake should NOT work on himself b/c then his wife will have a kind loving h AND an OM and that's cake eating?

seems to me if Jake is a jerk, she'll just choose OM and leave...how's that better?

Not to mention that Jake doesn't want to be a jerk...& all HE can control is him.


Jake, is there some other job your w can get that is more condusive to your marriage?

Her Working late at night with single people, and seeing you so little, isn't great. She must have felt lonely a lot even at home. She's cared for the disabled d all on her own, with no companion....

You really must have "couple" time. And family time all together.

That would be an improvement that all could enjoy and benefit from.

Think your w would agree to that or pursue school again? You said she had talent.

I have a hard time believing her career goals are satisfied waiting tables, (which I did in law school. I thought it was way more demanding than most people realize. It motivated me to finish law school, that's for sure.)

((( )))

[Accuray]

I went to church on Sunday and the minister suggested a relationship exercise for troubled times. Each day when you wake up ask:

1) What am I getting from this relationship?
2) What am I giving to this relationship?
3) What am I doing in this relationship to contribute difficulty?

Note that the obvious fourth question is missing.

Accuray

[greenblue90]

25
I did not mean at all for Jake not to keep working on himself, that to me is a given. OM or not, together or divorced Jake has a lot to work on.

That being said he may need to consider some work on co-dependence. Find his own self worth away from his wife.

Clearly his W is addicted to the rush sneaking around with OM gives her. Like many drug addicts and alcoholics, Jake needs to be careful not to enable her.

Some addicts hit rock bottom on their own. These are the easy cases.

Some lose the support of loved ones, and without this hit rock bottom much faster, allowing themselves a chance to change.

Some will carry their addictions for years slowly destroying their world and those around them. They'll hit rock bottom eventually but the fall is slowed down, and the addiction lengthened by those who enable them.

Jake has chosen to enable in the hopes that she looks at him favorably if and when she hits rock bottom.

Accuray

You're right in that Jake can't make his wife face her choices, but he can enable her so she doesn't have to.

Let me ask you this, is there a line to be drawn? Ever? What if she wants OM to move in? Should he tolerate that too?

What if she starts sending him money? That happened to someone here. Should he ignore this too?

It's up to Jake to decide how much he will tolerate. I do know what it's like to be afraid to let go. So I can empathize.

I think part of your growth has to include examining why you can't let go of what is quickly turning into a dysfunctional relationship.

I know the kids play a huge part of this, and I know I have no good advice for that. All I can say is to stop and think what type of environment you are creating. I keep hearing that kids are smart and they can pick up certain vibes between the parents.

[Sad_but_happy]

25, Please stop telling me what DB is and is not.

Just yes, my advice is part DB and part SBH. Just as yours is part DB and part 25.

Trust me when I tell you that I understand your position. You feel there should be no ultimatums because you were the one that cheated. You were the one that went outside your marriage. So you empathize with the person that has a PA or EA. I do not.

You talk often about "not keeping score". Well I DO believe that a spouse is MORE wrong when they go outside the marriage.

Why you ask?

Because both spouses contributed to the demise of the marriage pre affair. Both did wrong. Both were at fault. But only one took the next step and committed the ultimate betrayl. Only one decided to sneak and lie and cheat.

Now, you can call me angry or bitter or unforgiving or "a score keeper". But I tell you that I am none of those.

I am a person that believes that an affair is wrong and nearly unforgivable in a M. Yes 25, sleeping with another person is MORE WRONG and MORE HURTFUL than not picking up your socks for three years.

And please tell me where in DB it says the allow your S to cheat right in front of your eyes. Laying boundaries is the very foundation of DB. My boundary is no tollerance to a cheating spouse. And you take offence to that because you were a cheating spouse.

That's all well and good but please don't tell me what DB is and isn't. You give your advice and I will give mine. From there we can let the person taking the advice make the choice.

Ok?

Good night all...