REQ: Looking for a thread from a fellow DBer...

[oldtimer]

I'm not suggesting you try to involve yourself with H's DD. Just like if you were dating someone with a young child, involving yourself with the child should only come with a very strong, clear, commitment to a long-term monogamous R.

Right now you don't just have a WAS, you have a WAS+1, that simply is who he is.

So, I'm not asking you to think in terms of what could be, rather just reframe your picture of what is. At least *think* about what you find so hard about calling her H's DD. I think you know enough to recognize those things that we resist are often those that are most important to look at.

BTW, I think you are helping A LOT of people on these boards. Strong detachment, letting go, going quickly to LTR. These are things people here need to do more of. People who find their way to these boards for the most part aren't in shaky marriages in which they need to ask for what they want and look for baby steps. Instead, their marriages are in major crisis with the WAS already emotionally D or nearly emotionally D. The LBSs going through this major trauma need to skip to the end of DR. Working through the earlier chapters that might have helped a few years earlier often just puts the nails in the coffin of the M.

Doing what works for you, detaching, looking at H with compassion and understanding despite his confusion and poor choices is going to get you a long way in short order, no matter how things turn out in the short-term or long-term.

I hope lots of people keep reading your thread. They need to see this. You have a VERY good handle on making your OWN choices based on the possible risks and benefits you perceive and OWNING the results. Really, really good stuff.

My only other suggestion is to back-off the arrogance a bit, and I do not mean that in a nasty way. You have great insight into what is going on with H, but don't presume to know too much. Build your beginner's mind rather than focusing so much on writing the back-, present-, and future- stories for H and OW. I KNOW it is easy to do that. I KNOW much seems obvious and foretold to you. Just try to back off of that. Beginner's mind.

[MynameisMZ]

"...it is the initial adoration and idolization that draws the self-hating MLCer into the web of seduction."

WOW! Sure does fit mine too. H told me he hated himself and was on a path of self-destruction and he was going to go down big. FWIW, my H was re-enacting his parents' M and what happened between them. Being the same age as his dad...... as did his dad...... he attempted to destroy his career by having A in the work place, have an A, and have me kick him out.
No baby though, H had a vasectomy (thank God). However, there is speculation his dad had a child and my H has a 1/2 sibling somewhere.

One thing was clear to me and that was I was not going to be maneuvered into his mother's position. I was not going to help the re-enactment happen. I've been well aware for years that H has been rebelling against me like he should have rebelled against his mother. He couldn't rebel. At 52 she was left with a 10 y.o. boy, H gone, and the IRS came in and took EVERYTHING. They had $1.52 left when it was all done. He and then we took care of her until she died.

[MynameisMZ]

To answer a previous question from you: I did know that it would not last with ow. I really knew that. I too agree that it had to burn itself out. What I was not sure about was how far he needed to take the A. When he told me it was just an "inappropriate R (EA) taking away from our M" and that it was not a PA, I told him to go to her. I felt that if it did not get to PA, then it would. Basically gave the message that I loved him, wanted him, but would not play 2nd fiddle and was willing to let him go if I was 2nd fiddle.

It's a juggling act. While I was preparing for him to leave, I was also preparing for him to stay. I was not sure which way it was going to go. It all depended on how crazy he was. As with you now, I too made a survival plan and how I was going to play this game of chess.

In the beginning our MC met with us separately for one session each. She didn't say it, but I could clearly sense she thought I should get out. I told her I needed to buy time while I made plans to be financially set. Haste would have wreaked havoc. I needed time and I wasn't going to have the home front a war zone. Like your sitch, ow planted a lot of bad seeds in his head about me. Reading over the IMs and e-mails I could see where she would insidiously say things about me. Like a true borderline/narcissist, she was a master at splitting people and we were not exception. I was going to be sure that I wasn't going to be anything bad. I was "a lady in the living room, a chef in the kitchen, and a whore in bed" as an old saying goes.

It was the crime she staged against herself to make me look bad that caused him to wake up.

[MynameisMZ]

This is a good thread Abbey. Your responses do clearly demonstrate your plan. I'm not getting "arrogance" OT. Maybe a lot of pi$$ and vinegar, but maybe what is needed to keep the going going?

I like p & v people.

[Abbey]

Thank god for this board and all the people here. OT's comments aren't without caution and concern. I understand the way my comments may "look" on the surface. I DO have her best interests in the front of my mind at all time.

THAT is also why I'm willing to bow away from this thing. Let the chips fall where they may. My H has to build a relationship with his daughter. That means being in some kind of relationship with his mother. (or so he thinks). There is no way to oppose that and I will not. (as disrespectful and distasteful and totally twisted thinking on his part, as it may be).

To prove my point further: He just called, to "do" one of my boundaries. Didn't think any of that got through to him, but guess what, he let me know where he was going, that he was with her, and that they were going to a certain place. (I requested that so I could steer clear.)

He asked me 4 times today, where I was going. I said, don't know. He told me where he was going, then I told him where I was headed. He asked... if you see anything cute etc. I said I needed sizes etc. I said it's hard to find stuff unless I know her sizes. Boot size, pants, shirts etc. He said, well... (and you could have knocked me over with a feather)... now that OW has a new job,... I'll be able to pick up daughter early and then you can meet her.

Wait... WHAT?!?! WTF?! *jaw drop* 5 days ago, I was NEVER going to meet his daughter. And suddenly... now the spin cycle is round and round, but he's back to what he was saying before my little visit. He's commenting on OW's melt downs, and how her job will have her unable to pick up daughter, spend adequate time with her etc.

My comment, well, don't p.o. the mother,... I'm ready when you are... but make sure you're ready for that. We have time. What else could I say?

[Abbey]

This is a good thread Abbey. Your responses do clearly demonstrate your plan. I'm not getting "arrogance" OT. Maybe a lot of pi$$ and vinegar, but maybe what is needed to keep the going going?

I like p & v people.

Thank you for this. It HAS to be P and V this time. Last time, all I wanted to do was suck my thumb, roll into a ball and fade to dust.

I NEVER,.... NEVER want to be in that abyss and darkness again. EVER. I've never been someone who's had any issues with depression until my mother died, left me with a mess in her estate, that lead to the melt down with H. There were days, that if it had not been for my critters, I would have just stayed in bed for days... weeks... til I did fade away.

I will NOT... NOT ever let myself get to that place again. It wasn't until we had a false start (saw eachother for a few months behind OW's back.)... and then we broke up (messy screaming match)... then his phone call back to me, like nothing had ever happened... did I realize just how screwed up in the head he was. It was then, that I gained back my sense of humor, and because I was away from the sitch... and she was successfully driving him crazy... all I had to do was affirm his feelings, and gently remind him that I'm "the better" choice.

I'm back to that spot again.

[oldtimer]

"I like p & v people." :-)

The arrogance I mention is kind of hard to explain. I DON'T mean snooty, stuck-up, know-it-all, think their superior kind of arrogance.

Rather it is something that we all suffer from I think, at various points in our life. Remember the arrogance of youth? There is also a certain arrogance that LBSs seem to fall into. (The WAS no doubt has their own arrogance of a much more problematic kind.) Anyway, it is just a way of being perhaps a bit too sure of ourselves and what we think we know of others.

It is no doubt hard to see in the midst of it, and hard for me to explain. But getting past it to a beginner's mind is a key to success, humility, and compassion.

[oldtimer]

"He said, well... (and you could have knocked me over with a feather)... now that OW has a new job,... I'll be able to pick up daughter early and then you can meet her.

Wait... WHAT?!?! WTF?! *jaw drop* 5 days ago, I was NEVER going to meet his daughter. And suddenly... now the spin cycle is round and round, but he's back to what he was saying before my little visit. He's commenting on OW's melt downs, and how her job will have her unable to pick up daughter, spend adequate time with her etc."

OMFG. What is he thinking? What a tough sitch for you. Generally, it isn't fair to the kid to introduce a romantic P (which you still are) until the R is firmly on track. WTH knows in this sitch? Yipes.

[Abbey]

involving yourself with the child should only come with a very strong, clear, commitment to a long-term monogamous R.

Right now you don't just have a WAS, you have a WAS+1, that simply is who he is.

I agree with you. Just to reiterate the b/g on this... H showed up at my door with OW being 8 weeks pregnant... and asked me to raise that baby with him. Up til the very recent month or so... he's STILL been in that frame of mind. And, and,... he wavers in and out of it still. One minute OW' is Madonna and should be crowned mother of the year, the next, she's a chain smoking, race car driving, melt-downer. All of which half the time he hates because they fight so much.

So, I'm not asking you to think in terms of what could be, rather just reframe your picture of what is.

But, but but,... I'm already there. Kind of hard to ignore the obvious, any more than than I could ignore the 9 months of sheer hell that accompanied the pregnancy. Trying to use the beginners mind... ESP when it was one of our bonds that we would be raising her together... is hard... and it's a juggling act. Emotionally, it one of the hardest parts of this. It's hard not to already allow myself to think of all 3 of us as a family. Esp when more than half the time H goes off on one of his tangents about getting exclusive custody... and cutting the OW right out of the picture. I don't see much choice but to try to keep a level head and detach appropriately enough to not let me feel like I'm not just losing a husband, but also what would be "us" as a family too. You see what I'm saying?

I actually expected I'd get more discourse with the idea of H and I essentially cutting her bio mother right out of the picture.

It's been our experience with the courts here, that they lean towards a strong stable family structure. OW is anything but.

Build your beginner's mind rather than focusing so much on writing the back-, present-, and future- stories for H and OW. I KNOW it is easy to do that. I KNOW much seems obvious and foretold to you. Just try to back off of that. Beginner's mind.

Yes and no. One technique that I found worked for me (and it's a personality quirk of mine, and a trained sales technique, I guess)... is that I will look at a sitch and say: Ok, what are the potential outcomes. A, B, C or D. From there, you assess what you will do if any of those scenarios present themselves.

It goes part and parcel with the question I asked MZ... about being able to predict what was probably going to happen next.

My T was quite interested in how closely I actually predicted the outcome once I did manage to detach far enough away to not have my heart shatter. My prediction on the outcome was uncanny. (My T's words.)

This time, I'm not happy about where I see this going for my H. Regardless of if we ever fix this... it scares me to think what she is capable of doing to him, in order to manipulate him. When this thing goes south,... (and considering what her past behavior has been.)

I can see in my H's future:
A/OW kidnapping DD and running when he files for custody.
B/OW accusing him of abusing her.
C/OW accusing him of abusing one of her other kids.
D/OW accusing him of sexually abusing his daughter.

I take NO pleasure in seeing that as a potential. Sadly, I'm not the only one who sees that as a possibility. Other members of his immediate inner circle see the same thing. Not good.

[Abbey]

"...it is the initial adoration and idolization that draws the self-hating MLCer into the web of seduction."

WOW! Sure does fit mine too. H told me he hated himself and was on a path of self-destruction and he was going to go down big.

My sis in law said: H was SOOO solid. This isn't him etc. What I wonder about is: Maybe TOO solid? It's like the "good girl" ... who decides to break free for a while (usually because of the ever increasing pressure she puts on herself to live up to her own unrealistic expectations, or others expectations)... just decides to go right off the rails to rebel.

I have to wonder if there isn't some of that. H has always been the go to guy. The top sale person. The achiever. YET... it surprised my sis in law when I said, he always felt like he wasn't as successful as his brothers, because they owned various companies.

The fact that she seeks his input on every bloody aspect of her flippin' existence is intoxicating to him. For now. He's traded one set of unrealistic expectations for another kind. Her neediness and possessiveness.

My T and I spoke at great length about the hangover/let down that usually accompanies this. The inevitable war that can ensue once the feeder (my H) seeks to break from from the OW who's insatiable appetite for more drama, more conflict, more control, more manipulation FINALLY wears him out.

MZ, can you link back some of your previous threads for me. I'd like a chance to go read through.

Abbey