just so I'm clear with you and anyone else interested....
Originally Posted By: Accuray
25,
Male friends are certainly fine. Pat Love has an excellent document on her web site about what's "over the line" in an EA.
My W was telling OM she loved him, she thought of nothing but him, she wanted to fly away to a beach with him, not being with him was torture, etc. Multiple "I love you" declarations per day. = OVER THE LINE.... ENOUGH SAID...
Lots of sneaking around and secret nights out for dinner and drinks, taking off work secretly to go for walks together for the afternoon, secretly meeting for drinks after work, having lunch together every day.
That, to me, is an "Emotional Affair". Having a male friend who you sometimes discuss your problems with is simply not the same. On the Pat Love site, she says that if you wake up and your first thought is of OM, if you dress to be appreciated by OM, if you are emotionally bound to OM to the exclusion of H, you're over the line.
Accuray
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
YOU ARE ON A COLLISION COURSE...YOU CANNOT HANDLE THE TRUTH B/C NO MATTER WHAT IT IS
YOU WILL MAKE IT WORSE....
OR IT WILL BE THE WORST CASE SCENARIO ( A FULL BLOWN PA) BUT THAT SHE IS TRYING TO FIX NOW
AND YOU WILL RUIN THAT....WHY? B/C YOU REFUSE TO FORGIVE.
THAT'S IT..period. You have spoken very little about the concept or how to do it or where to go to learn how.
All you want is your ego stroked and worrying THIS way ain't gonna do it.
Originally Posted By: Accuray
Wow Harrier, you were pretty lucky too. I did have the challenging "evidence discussion" with W at one point. Prior to having it I convinced myself that I could just do it once and be done with it. Per Harrier's note, that didn't work, I really felt the same way after as I did before. I was able to better understand some of what I found, but I really didn't feel better about any of it, nor did I fully believe I had the truth.
Here's the next place you're going to go -- pretend you fully go through all the evidence you have. The next thing you're going to ask yourself is "What don't I know? What haven't I found?"
EXACTLY!!!
Then, you will start pestering W to reveal anything else that you might not have evidence for "what else aren't you telling me!" That will also drive you nuts for weeks. You might then find additional "evidence", confront W again, and she'll say she didn't tell you about it because she didn't think it was important, then you'll stew on that for weeks. our marrying priest said 2 things that mattered to me, ever.
One was this: "Of course deceit in a marriage is bad. But don't give your spouse a REASON TO WANT TO DECEIVE by over reacting or losing your temper"...
if she dents the car, don't go on & on about it and lecture and beratee. AND then wonder next time there's a scratch, why she didn't bring it up or maybe fixed it on her own without telling you. Own that...
likewise here, imo, YOU are blowing it. You need c or T asap....learn how to deal with this better.
See the point? It's a merry-go-round that you just can't get off. There will *ALWAYS* be more questions, and you can't know everything. In addition, W has already altered her view of the past to be more comfortable with it, so she may no longer accurately remember what she has done or said. You just can't know. I have to get to the point where you accept it, or decide that you can't and move on, as Harrier suggests.
--Accuray
GOLDEN ADVICE...you want answers that don't exits, or that can't and you want to rewrite the past and yet not know it.
Plus the EA if that's what it is and let's say it is...It BEGAN b/c of problems you claim to be working on but you don't seem to see them as at least a partial explanation. THEY ARE...so yes, YOU own some of it and instead of wanting details on what IS NO LONGER HAPPENING
why not focus on paying attention to her needs so the chances of it happening again, IF it did,
are reduced??? Seems to me SHE is trying, and you are holding your grudge and stomping your feet. How is that working for you? Think she's feeling closer to you? More "opening up" likely from her NOW??
I accept that I WILL NEVER understand why my h did what he did (or who he was with...but I believe they meant little to nothing to him or I'd know and besides, I met some men too. Didn't sleep w/them but could have. Didn't love them but could have (in one case).
Since I CHOSE to remain married to h - I can believe the same about him b/c I saw real effort on his part to reconcile. And b/c I'm not a hypocrite.
what really matters is "going from this day forward."
Like I said, Jake, there's a reason those words are in our vows.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Since the last time I posted she called the OM the next day and talked for 15 minutes. There were no other communications to him since then until yesterday. I have not been snooping until a little bit tonight. I looked at our phone bill online and see that last night he had texted her and she called him and talked again for about 15 minutes.
Also last night my W was texting her female friend and was planning on going to get some coffee with her and hang out for a little bit. This is a new thing that she started right when she met the OM, and I know that sometimes she really did what she said and other times she just went to see the OM. I told my W that I didn't want her to go out last night and she reluctantly agreed. I don't know if my W called the OM before or after the coffee plans were cancelled but it's awfully suspicious. It seems pretty obvious that my W was going to see the OM... or its a trap to see if I'm snooping.
I don't want to admit to looking at the phone bill but I don't understand why in the world my W would still talk to the OM. How do I approach this?
Btw, I have been doing a lot of 180s and following the things we have been working on in MC.
If this is true she probably feels she is entitled to talk to him whenever she wants and it's none of your business.
Clearly though you don't see it that way. You are threatened by OM (otherwise you wouldn't call him OM). Now did she promise no further contact with OM? Or is just denying it being an EA/PA.
If she promised no further contact and is breaking that you need to establish a clear boundary. She clearly thinks she can continue to disrespect you. As long as OM is still in the picture any and all attempts at reconciation are just a charade.
She can't pour herself in the marriage as long as she still has an out by going with OM.
Now a lot of folks think it's great that she is showing signs of wanting to work on the M. Like she may be ready to begin piecing.
Look I don't think you can piece as long as she keeps turning to OM. Piecing IMHO is about working TOGETHER for the M. She won't give her best as long as she can turn to OM.
So what can you do, she sure seems to want it both ways.
I can see you are conflicted and in pain. I think you and your W have a lot to clear up. I think she needs to once and for all tell you what the heck this guy is to her. I say this because clearly for either good or bad she wants this guy in her life. He could just be a friend, or not. Nonetheless it is not fair to you to live the rest of your life guessing. She needs to once and for all tell you what he is to her.
Once she does this she needs to be open enough so that you dont doubt this. All this hiding needs to stop. The burden of proof is on her.
How would she feel if you snuck around phone calls to a woman. Then when confronted kept hiding them. If it's so innocent why can't she at least be open about it.
I think there is a very clear distinction between this case and others on this board. In most cases the spouse walks away to be with OP. The LBS wants her back. If he/she returns hopefully it is without the OP. Most WAS don't return with OP.
In your cases she doesn't want to leave, yet doesn't want to let go of OM she has to pick one. I know many here would love to have their spouse back, but would you accept OP too if she came back?
Besides a lot of WAW's will pretend to try to piece while they fix their affairs and finally get to leave with the OM.
Maybe GB is just bitter but something smells rotten here.
I am sure others will have a different take on this, but for ME, this is what I got from your post.
You still snoop. It hurts. You get confused and paralyzed and ask what to do, again.
So You ordered your wife to stay home and she "reluctantly" agreed to do so (I'm sure she was super happy about that. No resentment there....no backsliding there?)
How does that "victory" feel to you? Hollow?
It should, b/c you forced your will upon her some more. Either be open about your snooping and what you THINK it means and ask her outright,
or stop all the nonsense.
It's getting you nowhere fast.
What are your 180s again? B/C all I'm seeing is the same old Jake...
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
As yourself why did you snoop the other night? What were the circumstances that lead to it? Did you W leave her phone out? Were you feeling especially bored, scared, lonely anxious? How can you avoid those situations because at first, to me it was about avoiding the temptation because I knew it was too strong to resist.
There were time I left the room/house, or went to go to the drugstore on a drive, played video games, watched a funny movie ... anything to take away the thoughts and temptation.
Now I don't need the distractions to do the right thing.
You need to be honest with us too. You looked at more than the phone bill. The phone bill isn't going to give you the the time of the text not the content and you clearly got the content in your wife's convo with her friend.
Let me be frank, you aren't doing your part to work on the m from this day forward (as 25 says) You are too busy looking behind. You and your wife's half-hearted attempts will only fail if you can't get a hold of this. the constant snooping is not building trust in your W, it's actually destroying it further. her talking to him is also destroying trust but you can't control that.
I think you've said at least 3-4 times that you told you wife to stop talking to OM and she agreed. That hasn't worked, yet you continue down that same road. It's like the old joke about how cops in London stop a criminal without guns..."Stop...or I'll say stop again."
I disagree with GB about the "respect" issue and getting pissy about it. I do agree that you need to have boundaries for yourself.
Ultimately, all the logic, anger, talks about how your W really feels about the OM are pretty useless IMO. Only she can decide what she wants to do about the OM, no you. You can only control yourself.
Patience is bitter, but its fruit is sweet. --Jean Jacques Rousseau.
I truly have not done anything that would constitute as snooping between my last two posts, which was about a week apart. This time I really only did look at the online phone bill, which does show me all the details of the to/from and times of the texts, but obviously not the content.
That being said, what triggered it this time was her sudden interest in going out with her female friend on Sunday night. This definitely made me suspicious and seeing the texts to/from and call to the OM reaffirmed my decision to check the phone bill. It's possible that after she decided not to go she figured it was because I thought she was going to see the OM and wanted to see if I had been snooping. Or, she was going to see the OM and communicated to him that she was not going to that night.
I felt really bad and very controlling when she told me she was not going to go out because "it was clear I didn't want her to." Over our M I always prided myself on letting her do whatever she wanted and not restricting her like so many other Hs do. I always used to tell her that it was ridiculous that other Ws had to ask their Hs permission to live a normal life, but yet here I am today telling you that I did just that.
I definitely don't trust that she will go out with her female friend and not see the OM. If I tell her that then it's going to be an argument since my W feels she has done nothing wrong. That's why I think her admission of some kind of A or showing remorse would help... but after reading all these insights you all offer I realize I may never get that.
What do I do? 1. Stop snooping and assume she's not talking to the OM 2. Continue snooping to see if she's talking to the OM 3. Admit to the snooping and ask why she is talking to the OM 4. Casually ask her if she's talking to the OM to see if she will lie about it
The problem in my head is that I thought we were in the "no contact" phase and working on our issues... but apparently she has justified communicating with the OM on some level, and I'm not OK with that. How do I re-communicate that boundary without admitting to snooping?
I truly have not done anything that would constitute as snooping between my last two posts, which was about a week apart. This time I really only did look at the online phone bill, which does show me all the details of the to/from and times of the texts, but obviously not the content.
That being said, what triggered it this time was her sudden interest in going out with her female friend on Sunday night. This definitely made me suspicious and seeing the texts to/from and call to the OM reaffirmed my decision to check the phone bill. It's possible that after she decided not to go she figured it was because I thought she was going to see the OM and wanted to see if I had been snooping. Or, she was going to see the OM and communicated to him that she was not going to that night.
do you see how your snooping makes you MORE confused, not less?
I felt really bad and very controlling when she told me she was not going to go out because "it was clear I didn't want her to." Over our M I always prided myself on letting her do whatever she wanted and not restricting her like so many other Hs do. I always used to tell her that it was ridiculous that other Ws had to ask their Hs permission to live a normal life, but yet here I am today telling you that I did just that. First, I don't know many h's who tell their w's where to go or with whom or women who literally "Ask" for permission , but maybe it's b/c I'm over 40 and don't know those types of people...Second, yes you did exactly what you say you don't want to do. ALL b/c you snooped and got mega controlling.
Your "control" is an illusion.
I definitely don't trust that she will go out with her female friend and not see the OM. If I tell her that then it's going to be an argument since my W feels she has done nothing wrong. That's why I think her admission of some kind of A or showing remorse would help... but after reading all these insights you all offer I realize I may never get that.
OMG please tell me you are not waiting for that! To me, you sound like a petulant boy who wants to be declared "Right" damn it!
Stop that. Just BE the better man and KNOW it. It'll show.
What do I do? 1. Stop snooping and assume she's not talking to the OM 2. Continue snooping to see if she's talking to the OM 3. Admit to the snooping and ask why she is talking to the OM 4. Casually ask her if she's talking to the OM to see if she will lie about it NONE OF THESE^^^^....(but the options you list get crazier as you go along. No more tests!)
STOP SNOOPING AND KNOW YOU ARE THE BETTER MAN. HOPE SHE SEES THAT. IF NOT, IT'S HER LOSS....NO WONDERING ABOUT OM....at all. He's gone.
HE'S NOTHING...work on YOU and let your w see THOSE efforts, Not your controlling ways and the snooping. So destructive.
you are sabotaging this m. I have to wonder why. Maybe the blow to your ego was too much and you don't want to admit that?
That's the only explanation I can come up with for you repeating the same errors. What say you?
The problem in my head is that I thought we were in the "no contact" phase and working on our issues... but apparently she has justified communicating with the OM on some level, and I'm not OK with that. How do I re-communicate that boundary without admitting to snooping?
I would not bother "re-communicating" that "boundary" at all. I would do as I suggested above.
You have NO CONTROL over what she does so repeatedly "ordering" her to not contact him does 3 things :
1) It shows you in a bad, petty insecure and judgemental light
2) which in her eyes forces her to deceive you b/c she's not ready to stop contact with him
3) and it makes you feel bad and angry.
SHE KNOWS you don't want her to contact him. Stop repeating yourself.
IF and WHEN SHE is ready to stop she will. Don't keep making demands she cannot meet and then getting mad that she lets you down-- she doesn't feel she agreed b/c you put her under duress.
She never wanted to stop seeing him and the more snooping you do and the more attempts at control you exert
the more she wants to confide in him.
You are not projecting an attractive strength so how can a woman want to be in your arms for comfort, when the arms are the type to confine and show your need?
She needs your confident strength and love, not your insecurities and fears and insatiable need for reassurance, which she is not yet prepared to give.
The idea that you want her to 'admit doing wrong" is very immature. I'm sorry but it just is. Let go of that b/c honestly what is the point?
if she commits to the m, fully, won't that be enough?
I hope you salvage this if it is what you want. If not, let her go now.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
sorry if that came across as too harsh. I know you are in pain.
But I see you repeating your own mistakes. You know better.
You can do better. Be better. Let THAT show.
let go of the need to be right and learn to be happy, in the present.
It's a gift you give yourself and those around you.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Don't apologize for your advice. It's not coming off as harsh to me, it's coming off as direct... and you are right that I continue to keep repeating the same things.
I guess it really is pointless to confront her about the continued communication to the OM since I made it super clear the last few times that I expected no contact.
I'm starting to lean on it being some kind of test to see if I'm snooping because I looked again before posting this and saw that she texted him a bunch today, which is not normal for her recent recommitment to the M. She posted something on her Facebook last night saying, "very interesting things going on"... I asked her about it and she said, "I'll tell you tomorrow when I figure it out."
If I take the whole thing at what she says as being just a friendship and/or EA that she feels justified for, then the snooping definitely is completely unacceptable to her, and she would be likely to play games to figure out if it's still occurring.
If there is an A going on with the OM then snooping to see if she's still talking to him isn't going to do anything positive for me anyways. It's just really hard not to. I want to believe her when she told me she would not talk to him anymore after the whole thing last week... but she's already broken that one.
A big question I have is how do I approach the situation if she says she is going to go out in a day or two? I don't trust her at all right now.... but restricting her I think would lead to even worse actions or feelings.
