Quick journal: I've been feeling good lately, doing well on my own terms.
We had family in for the holidays so had house guests Tuesday through Sunday afternoon. Haven't ML since last Friday -- W knows I would prefer twice per week and agreed to average once per week. Family pulled out of town, spent some quality time with W last night, went to bed together early, kids asleep, perfect timing right? Nothing happened. Historically this would make me really disappointed / passive aggressive. Fell asleep last night no problem, woke up this morning with a smile, hugged W and went to work. Very happy not to be stewing on it all day. Just let it go...
Accuray
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
Had "the talk" with W last night. She knows I've been reading "Passionate Marriage" and asked what it's made me think about. I told her the book points out the parallels between a great sex life and a great marriage, and how the two reinforce each other. How being able to have great sex requires a great deal of personal growth, we need to be able to be vulnerable, to see and be seen by our partner, etc. I believe there is great potential in married sex if the partners make it a goal to achieve it.
I explained that her disengagement during ML and her lack of desire is an issue for me, and has been for a long time. If both our sex life and by extension our marriage could be better, why isn't that a goal worth pursuing?
W said it doesn't bother her, that she doesn't need sex and never has. She said that expecting her to want sex is like expecting me to want to eat brussel sprouts because other people think they are good.
She said that her sex drive is non-existant, and that the lack of it is not an issue for her. She said that as the LD partner, she is stepping up the frequency, she wants me to be happy, and that things could be a lot worse.
I said that I didn't believe her sex drive is non-existant, that she told me she masturbates, and with no sex drive she wouldn't need to do that. She said that she does it so infrequently and just believes it's part of the human condition. She said that I seem to think that most women like sex, and she doesn't believe that's the case. She said that most of her friends do not, they just tolerate it.
She said that since we're ML more frequently, and since I seem to be satisfied when we do, why is it an issue? I told her that ML takes three forms, giving, receiving, and joining. I feel we have "receiving" down in spades, but that I'm missing the giving and joining, and those are important to me. That didn't get a response.
I left the conversation with the understanding that she views this as my issue rather than our issue, that she's not going to work on this with me, and that I need to take it or leave it.
So here's the thing, I know from talking to my friends that many many people do not have great married sex. Like many other things in marriage, there are compromises involved. I realize that if I were to pursue a different relationship, I may end up in the same place or worse.
That said, I love this woman, I feel there is greater potential there to be realized, and that we've done so much work to restore our marriage, why stop now? Why settle when we don't have to?
Am I being naive / crazy / selfish? Someone talk some sense into me here.
Accuray
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
This is a problem: you are making her pleasure, her engagement ALL ABOUT YOU. This does not give her space to simply experience pleasure or choose to engage simply because she wants to. Instead, it is all about you. If she enjoys sex, it becomes about you receiving what you need. If she engages, it becomes about you receiving what you need. Your sexual neediness right now is the most powerful anti-aphrodisiac on the planet for her.
W is resentful as hell. Her sexual needs are not being met, have not been met, she sees no way they will be met. And now you are demanding that you receive MORE from her. Can you see that??? Years of resentment lead to zero libido. She's sexually flattened, smashed. And now you are trying to mold her to be what YOU want even more. Of course she will find that repellant.
This is a horrible, painful, difficult spot for you both. W can't express what she needs sexually. So, what she really wants is probably something she feels she shouldn't, either because she's a mother, or a strong independent woman, or not a slut, or whatever. That is, to be very clear, she probably wants what she considers some combination of dirty/kinky/objectifying/subordinating sex. Seriously. I say this as a woman who was trapped in a SSM that ended in D. And, I still believe there is no way XH could have been the lover I wanted/needed in my life. But the ONLY time I felt the sexual spark return was at bomb time, because only then was I really free to see/feel that I wanted sex without the resentment.
I would sincerely suggest that you try some kinky sex with power games (this does not require pain or harm), tease W for at least half an hour, control her, get a decent sex toy like Dr. Ruth's eroscillator and use it on her. Be firm and loving, direct her, blindfold her, tell her to stay still, tell her you will keep her safe but you know what she needs. Of course you should respect her wishes if she does not want to play. But, this will NOT work if you try to get her buy-in ahead of time. That just makes it all about you again. The idea is to (1) take away the responsibility she feels to "perform" for you and (2) to take away her inhibition about enjoying what she really desires sexually by you taking the responsibility for what is happening. DO her, and only her. Give her a great experience. Tell her she did a good job and you'll be back later to take care of yourself.
I hope that makes sense. You will know soon enough if she wants to comply or not. If not, TRY SOMETHING DIFFERENT. She wants something that she CANNOT communicate right now. Forget whether that is fair or what that means about her defects. She CANNOT tell you what she wants. If you want a hot sex life, discover it through trial and error. Push her boundaries. It has to be ABOUT HER. Be her sexual leader and mentor, in a smart way.
The only other option I know of is to drop the D Bomb and mean it. She'll probably come around for awhile then, but until you fix the underlying problem of being stuck in an unrewarding and therefore resented sex life, things will never change long term.
I didn't go back through your whole history but based just on what she's saying in your latest post, I could also read that as an expression of resentment/control/punishment. She's withholding her own potential enjoyment of sex and that's a way of putting you in your place. You could take that to the point of D if it is really that important to you.
For me, I would give up on having a super-fulfilling sex life if I had all the other good things about my marriage and family. I rate it lower on the priority scale. It would be nice to have it all AND a great sex life but I'm not driven to achieve that. I've been very happy with a B+ sex life and a fantastic rest of my life. What's driving your quest for more?
Your drive to have it all AND a great sex life with a woman who feels sure she cannot and will not provide it for you. What's that about?
Can you be OK with just this better-than-before sex life?
Why are you hitting her over the head with her failings in Giving and Joining if her Receiving is going well? And by the way, she IS giving in her way. She's doing something with you and for you simply because it's important to you and makes you feel good...how much more giving can you get? And, ok I haven't read the book, but isn't the act itself Joining you? Your quest for perfection is a put-down of everything she's brought to the table so far.
You've got a wife who is willing to do something to make you happy. Let her know it made you happy. You've been successful with setting a weekly/twice-weekly goal that she's willing to try for, and that's good. I would have thought prescribing the number of times would be too much pressure but if she's OK with it then why not formalize it a big more, like Wednesdays are for you and any other day is her call. That way you don't create the pressure of "it's Friday and it hasn't happened yet, when's it going to happen?"
I can recall feeling sometimes like oh boy he's expecting it, I've got to do it tonight. And then feeling great relief when something came up and we didn't so I could blame it on something external and not have failed him. I just wasn't in the mood, and I resented that he wasn't willing to do what it took to get me in the mood (a few compliments, no pressure, a hug or nice touch during the day, not watching tv until 11pm). So for me, that once or twice a week goal without a specific date I could and should count on would have created that feeling of dread and necessity, and then failure if it didn't end up happening. I don't know if this helps because her head could be in a totally different place than mine.
I'll come back to the fact that you have a square peg you're trying to pound into a round hole, and if you can't live on the sex she's offering now, and it's more important than the rest of the life you built together, move on. If it's enough, then stop trying to force her to like it more - take what she's offering and take your pleasure from it. You can try things here and there just for fun, but stop thinking of it as for her own good. Respect her view of her own good, which is she's just fine without sex.
Oldtimer, you've got an interesting plan there and I'm sure there are some women so trusting and safe that they'd enjoy that. Me, even with my own H, I wouldn't make it 30 seconds into your scenario. I would need it to be scaled waaaaaaay back. I've heard that most people have kinky fantasies they would not want to play out in real life - they just enjoy them as fantasies. Count me in that camp. I've used the subordination/kinky thing many times in my head but I would probably slug anyone who actually tried it. Anyone who's had molestation in their past would likely respond VERY negatively to such overt control. I on the other hand would enjoy it if my H looked through a catalog with me to pick out some things he thinks would look pretty on me, to see if he could buy them for me, things we'd agree on together. Or a catalog of very low-key entry-level toys, or a slumber parties type website. To each his own but you've got to work with the comfort level of the person you're with.
Accuray, I think you're doing great and have a lot of hope for you. Cherish what you have and you'll seem less needy. Go for small increments toward your goal. Recognize her willingness and interest as a VERY big compromise for someone who couldn't care less about sex.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
you are making her pleasure, her engagement ALL ABOUT YOU
Oh yeah Oldtimer I totally agree with this.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
Of course it is reasonable to want a loving vibrant passionate sex life. It is a wonderful thing to have in one's M. No one wants to be married to a sibling.
And no, not everyone who has been raped or molested would find power/control games problematic. I think you imagine something happening without genuine consent. THAT would be unacceptable in any circumstances and would definitely be traumatizing to a sexual abuse survivor. Absolutely. But that is not at all what I suggested. More like, "Here's a sexy blindfold, put in on, oh that looks nice, lie down and relax...Is that OK? Tell me if it isn't..." "OK, now we're going to try...." No REAL coercion or force. Encouragement, direction, letting someone else manage/control the experience so that you can actually be *present* and focused on yourself rather than trying to be what H wants, "act" properly, get to the end of the sex which ends in H's O as efficiently as possible while gritting teeth, counting, making shopping lists, etc... The idea is to take the responsibility for the success of the sexual encounter out of your hands so that it really CAN be about you. So, it is not genuine control or coercion AT ALL. It is freely choosing to let go and let yourself be vulnerable and present. For many woman, because we are raised to make sex be all about the man, unless we are given the space NOT to have to perform in various ways for the man and NOT to be responsible for making sure the man Os, it is almost impossible to be sexually present. This can become even MORE true with a history of sexual abuse. Anyway, that is what is going on there. But of course, that dynamic won't work for everyone. That's why I said to try it. He should be able to tell easily if it is working for his W or if she is repelled.
Look, I really, really understand your pain. You seem stuck in that very resentful place. It is a horrible hopeless place to be. I hurt for you.
What are you doing to get out of it? Have you told H you'd like him to buy you something sexy and try some sex toys? I'm not sure what you mean by entry-level toys. The best thing you can do is get excellent sex toys that will actually work. A tiny little buzzing vibrator like comes with lube in the grocery stores now probably won't do much. You want changes in your SL to be successful.
Also, what would you do if H actually tried any of these things? What would happen if he had a VS catalog and asked you to look at it with him? How would you react? Would you be enthusiastic or would you be reluctant? Would you feel as though you'd have to not do it or as though you should disapprove? What would it be like? How would you react if H asked you to go to a sex shop with him?
you are making her pleasure, her engagement ALL ABOUT YOU
Oh yeah Oldtimer I totally agree with this.
Yep, that's why this is such a horrible place to be stuck. Of COURSE a healthy sex life should include giving, receiving, and joining. OF COURSE, it is reasonable to want these things. OF COURSE it hurts when some of them are missing. But chasing them often seems to get in the way of them even becoming possible.
It is sooooo sad and sooooo painful. It [censored].
I agree this place we're in is ALL ABOUT ME. She would be content if we connect through talking, have fun together, parent together and don't have sex. That would be a completely satisfying relationship for her in her view, and I believe it.
I'm not ok with that, however, so since I'm the one that wants a good sex life, how can it not be all about me? If I leave it to her, it won't happen, right? Help me understand the options you see here. I "tested" letting it go, taking away the requests and letting her set the tone and the result was no sex for over a year and she didn't notice. I could certainly argue that the relationship wasn't healthy overall during that period, so if I give up again and try to kill my sex drive things might be different, but I doubt it.
I have tried taking control in the past, tying her up, introducing toys as you suggest. The reaction from her has either been passive aggressive anger, outright anger, or abject surrender to the point that she's not even there -- completely unresponsive. In other cases, she'll start hitting herself until I stop. You could argue that I'm doing the wrong things, that I'm a clumsy lover, selfish, whatever, but I don't believe that. I'm willing to do whatever it takes -- but with no feedback and no guidance I'm sure to make mistakes. I've had long term relationships before getting married and this was never an issue. The things that all my other girlfriends really liked she seems to hate. (I would never tell her "but everyone else likes it!") I'm a giver by nature, and I know I'm not that bad technique-wise.
There is a long list of ways in which she will not allow herself to be touched, and she's constantly on-guard thinking that I might do those things even though I don't. She'll get tense and become rigid if she even thinks I'm moving in a direction that she won't like. Bottom line, I don't think grabbing the reins here is the answer, but I'm open to additional opinions.
Originally Posted By: oldtimer
But the ONLY time I felt the sexual spark return was at bomb time, because only then was I really free to see/feel that I wanted sex without the resentment.
Tell me more about this. Was the resentment yours, his, or both? What was the root of the resentment? How did you eliminate the resentment in your subsequent relationships?
Originally Posted By: oldtimer
You will know soon enough if she wants to comply or not. If not, TRY SOMETHING DIFFERENT.
If she does not want to comply with being subordinate, what else do you recommend I try? She won't tell me what she likes, and there is a long list of things she does not like that I have discovered through trial and error.
Originally Posted By: oldtimer
She wants something that she CANNOT communicate right now.
According to her, she does *not* want something she cannot communicate. She says she has never enjoyed sex with any partner. I have thought like you -- that she DOES have a sex drive and wants something that she cannot articulate. That if I can discover what it is through trial and error, I will open the door for her to great things -- believe me, I have tried over the course of 17 years to discover what that might be and I have failed.
She claimed her EA's and bar night hookups did not go PA, because she doesn't want sex. If it was "sex with me" that was the problem, those opportunities would have given her the opportunity to pursue the resentment-free sex right? She was totally checked out of the marriage, so if she wanted it, she could have had it -- it certainly wasn't our relationship that held her back.
The issue I see with your advice is the "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink" dilemma. If she doesn't WANT to enjoy sex, then nothing I do is going to help right?
She is saying that our assumption, that everyone wants sex, is flawed. She is completely at peace with being low desire, and doesn't view it as detracting from her happiness. Her low desire is an issue FOR ME. I fully acknowledge that this is all about me, but if I'm not happy, then the marriage will suffer right?
Thanks,
Accuray
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
OK, try something different -- Has she read For Yourself? There is also For Each Other.
Another thing to try is Tantric Sex with is NOT O-focused. I had a book that started just with breathing exercises. I can't remember what it was. (I actually really tried in my XM to improve our SL, it just never went anywhere.) XH and I got through the first few chapters, but I got tired of pushing and wanted him to get us through the work. I didn't want the burden of guiding us through it, if that makes sense.
Anyway, it was a pretty non-threatening, loving book that I THOUGHT would help us because it takes away all the O-pressure and puts women out of the standard man-pleasing role that I think it is hard for men to grasp.
Re the resentment -- it was mine. Sex becomes incredibly tedious and burdensome when one is not finding it rewarding. I really resented that and resented not having a great sex life and resented not having a chance for one as far as I could see. Resented the hell out of it. I remember feeling genuine rage hearing a couple in a neighboring room have sex because of my own resentment, emptiness and anger. Horrible place.
