Feel like I'm living the movie Groundhog Day...

[jbnati]

WHG,

I know how it hurts with your W looking at places. After your recent conversation, you may be a little more ambivalent toward it. My W wanted my feedback on places, and I actually looked at places with her. It kind of cuts both ways TBH. It's freeing from the drama on one hand. OTOH you miss your W.

It sounds to me with your most recent conversation, a firm co-parenting plan would be in order. Really, it's for both your benefit and hers.

I see a lot of fear coming from her in that conversation. Fear is a horrible guide, but it's a powerful motivator.

[oldtimer]

"More R/D talk tonight... this is getting old."

Big BUZZER. Don't do this. Until she has a firm plan, this is a bunch of wheel spinning that gives you the lovely opportunity to be the object of her projected anger and hurt. I thought you wanted to save your M, not guarantee its demise.

Instead, compassion and detachment. "Wow. I can see you have a lot going on in your head. It is a lot to deal with. I know you are strong and capable. I'm sorry things are so hard and scary for you right now. They are for me to. It will be OK. These talks don't really work for me. Let's wait until we have a clearer idea of your plans, and then schedule time to talk about a particular topic, like paying off debt, or custody, or childcare that works for both of us."

or even... "Hey, whooaaa.... I'm not ready to talk about this right now. Let's set a time in the next few days and let me know your planned move out date so we can have a constructive conversation for which I'm emotionally prepared."

"Night was going fine, dinner was great, we worked together on dinner and had fun. Kids were funny and we all had a good time."

And that is your signal to end the evening.

"After dinner SD asks my W why she isn't wearing her wedding ring anymore. W says it doesn't fit. That assuages them for now I guess."

Why would you think so? Do you really think the kids are so out of touch? Of course they know there are problems. Will she start some co-parenting stuff with you ASAP? I think honesty may be better, but good to check with an expert. BTW, honesty does NOT mean sharing all adult matters.

"In the kitchen W starts the R/D talk."

And you chose to participate... The R/D talk can't happen without you.

"Looking for info, sharing concerns. I validate, validate, validate. She begins to reneg on the childcare arrangements... concerned that if she starts dating someone I will use the child care as a weapon. Cancel without notice, leave her hanging, etc... This is where I start to stand my ground."

BUZZER! The old kids are her kids. You will no longer even be their stepdad. Instead, "Well, that's really your choice. I'd like to stay in their lives and I think it is best for DS to have that time with his siblings. I might not be their stepdad anymore, but they will always be his big brother and sister. But, of course, you are totally free to make any childcare arrangements for SS and SD that you want. Really, it is your call."

"I point out I have done nothing to stop this D and have only given her space."

Thereby taking big bites out of the space by making it about your virtuous suffering and making her feel guilty... Hush up.


"That I will have a problem if she chooses to pull the stepkids away as we had agreed upon."

Get over it. This is really your problem. It is fully her choice about what childcare arrangements she wants to make for her kids. The two of you will have a MILLION different plans and change your minds about a bunch of stuff until you get a formal agreement together. That is why this wheel spinning is at best pointless and in truth harmful. It leads to bad feelings, it creates opposition and sticking points, etc... Like I said on your other thread, neither of you has any idea what things will look like when you separate until you actually do it.

"She backs off and just says that she has trust issues and its hard for her to trust me."

Maybe. Or maybe she thinks she'll get more from XH if you aren't taking care of her kids for free. WTF knows. It doesn't matter. This isn't the kind of conversation to have. You aren't her C.

"Well, for this to work, co-parenting, she is going to have to work on that. Her issues should not infect my relationship with the kids."

Actually, co-parenting should be a pretty businesslike arrangement. The rosy picture you have in your head in which things will stay pretty much the same with you having more "me" time isn't going to happen. Aim for a clear custody arrangement and minimal strictly business contact, at least for a good while. Someone mentioned this resource (http://www.ourfamilywizard.com/ofw/) for managing stuff. It looks useful. It might be helpful to start using it now.

"Then she starts talking about this will all happen in April, or at least the move will. That's the only vacation time she could get and she needs time off to get moved. Well, I can't chain you to the house so when you're going to go you're going to go."

BUZZER. Instead, "Great, glad to hear you are getting a plan together. Let me know when it is firm."

"Then we're back on when to tell the kids. Looks like February... but she wants to file for increased child support from XH and plans to tell the court about the coming D. Then fears XH will tell the kids... what a friggin' mess."

Really, stop participating in these conversations until you are really going to make plans. When do you want to tell your son anyway?

"She then backs off, though I don't know that we're done yet. She also went on a little trip that she's afraid I'm going to screw her in the divorce. Really? I don't even want the damn thing! And now I'm going to screw you? But I validated and listened. I pointed out that we've been cooperative and open and we can keep being that. That my ultimate goal is a positive co-parenting relationship and that won't work if she feels victimized or taken advantage of and is angry with me. That I don't want her trashing me or bad-mouthing me in front of our S. So why would I create a situation that invites that?"

(1) D is a BUSINESS matter between opposing sides. It is certainly not a cooperative effort, it is not a partnership. Do NOT try to make it about your R with W or your co-parenting R. Handle it in a businesslike manner. Get a decent deal for yourself sooner rather than later. In any D, BOTH people are going to feel screwed. It is not going to feel good for anyone no matter how it is handled. You can always CHOOSE to be more generous than is legally required. But be on your side in the D. Your W will definitely be on her side.

"She goes on to say that I know that would never happen. I couldn't resist... I pointed out that it happens frequently with her XH. That when he is an ass or a pain she goes on these tirades about him and usually directs it at SS and SD. "Well we could have xyz if you dad followed through on anything he says he will do" and so on. She got this very pained look on her face... like it was the first time she realized that she does it or maybe the first time she's had it said to her."

No thoughts here, believe it or not. It is important for her to be aware of that behavior.

"So we talk some more."

Stop it.

"She complained that she is having to do all the heavy lifting on this D. I admitted that yes, she is. I will not help. I won't stop her, but I certainly won't help. She sighs and says she knows. It's just so hard. Boo-frickin-hoo."

Actually, you have helped -- with the budget, with splitting childcare, with watching her kids while she's out, with being there for her when she's freaking and has to spin her wheels with someone.

"The convos mercifully ended on a convo about what we might tell the kids. I mention that I don't think SS will be too broken up and that SD will be ok b/c she will see it as a chance for mom and dad to get back together."

Really? Really? This sounds implausible and probably dishonest. More than anything else it sounds like passive aggressive little darts directed toward both W AND the stepkids. Yuck. Just yuck.

"She disagrees... she says she doesn't know why, but lately the kids ask about me first thing when they get home. That SD insists on a song and kiss from me before bed. That things are different than they were. I simply say, well, I'm trying to be a better dad and person, maybe they've noticed and leave it at that."

What was your purpose here, to try to steer her away from the truth and make it all about you, your past failings, and how you are changing??? Really, what do you think is going on? Isn't it more likely that (1) you are the kids primary parent right now because W is all over the place and (2) she is noticing their affection for you more because of the looming separation? A better response, "Interesting." or "Hmmmm."

"The one other item that did piss me off tonight was this obnoxious fallacy she has... SS is an introvert and doesn't make a lot of friends. This bothers W who is an extrovert. She talks to him about it a bunch. This last talk SS tells her that he doesn't play with other kids at recess b/c he doesn't know how to play football. This plays right into my W's complaint that she asked me repeatedly to teach him football and I never did. Which is untrue, but that's her version.

I started to argue and debate. I started to point out that we did do football, that I don't believe EVERY kid on the playground plays football, and that the relationship issues of a 12 year boy may have something more to do with his mom divorcing his dad when he was three and then mentally checking out of the marriage to his stepdad when he was 10. Yeah... that might have more impact than not knowing how to play football.

But then I catch myself. I simply apologized that I didn't do enough nor did I spend enough time with SS. That I regret that and that it always felt awkward since his dad is his primary role model, but that I could have and should have done more. And then I left it at that. There were a few other things she said but I got the feeling that she is putting the onus of the SS's issues on me. That how he is, is primarily because of my failings. So time apart would be good... perhaps she can see it is some of her doing too...

So just frustrating and obnoxious. I'm very ready for this to be over. For her to move out and to move to the next step, whatever that is. This together thing... it's just too much heartache and pain. She doesn't know what she wants and the confusion is chaos. Sh!t or get off the pot. Not having to see her or deal with this crap every week/every day would be a giant relief."

OK. So start being separated. There is no reason to wait until she moves out. This drama and wheel spinning and anger and resentment is taking its toll on EVERYONE in the household already. (1) Separate money -- yours, hers, joint (for joint bills and joint debt.) Make a 5 or 6 month schedule for what each of you need to contribute to the joint account to cover costs and eliminate debt. Beyond that, what you do with yours and what she does with hers is private. (2) Fix the custody schedule for the next two months. (3) Cancel joint credit cards. (4) Get separate cell phone accounts. (5) Determine a date to stop sharing a bedroom. (6) Talk to someone together about how to handle telling the kids. Address each of these in a separate planned businesslike conversation outside of the home.

BTW, W probably is already dating if she's sincerely worrying about what you will do about her dating.

Detach. LRT. Create space around finances and custody by making clear plans to cover the next few months.

[workinghardguy]

Thanks Oldtimer... I agree with a lot of what you posted. I should say that much of my post was my inner voice, not necessarily what I actually said. For example the convo about the SS and SD, I largely said what you posted. That I'd like to be in their lives but it's her choice, that it will create conflict for S to get attention and not the others

The issue is that I've let her do all the D work. But she's not good at it. So we end up wheel-spinning. However, I have resisted doing anything for the D since that's the guidance my coach has been giving me.

This morning though during my run I've started thinking that I need to play a more active role. If I don't shape my future she will shape it, and I'm not okay with that. Maybe it accelerates this faster or maybe it doesn't, but at this point who cares? It's all coming on anyway. I'd rather be in the driver's seat than sitting in the back of the bus.

As far as dating... yes, I'm quite sure she's at least spending some "quality time" with others. I wouldn't call it dating per se, but once I'm out of the picture it will pick up. I would be surprised to see a full-blown R, but going out with guys I can completely see. She can't stand being with herself, which is how we ended up here to a degree, so there is no reason to think that is going to change.

As far as the business side, I agree and I agree that co-parenting is a lot about business. That's actually where the child care convo went. She can hire child care for probably $100-$200 a week and I would have to pay some portion of that. Or I can do it. If I do it a) I can better maintain an R with SS and SD and b) not spend money on someone else to do what I can do and am willing to do. I did tell her that it's entirely her call because it is.

We have talked with C about telling the kids. She is the one who wants to do something other than what the C is telling us to do. This is a flashpoint between us right now because what I've wanted (waiting until 30-45 days beforehand) is what the C says we should do and she wants to do 90 days before or so.

[oldtimer]

Why would you pay for childcare for her kids?

Have you talked to C about doing an in-house sep and how to tell the kids? This allows the sep to move forward without her moving out.

[workinghardguy]

I wouldn't be paying for her kids, I'd be paying for my son... but it's a combined package. So Tuesdays are her days... if she has to work there's a child care cost and I pay half. Thursdays are my days... if she works there's a child care cost but since son would be with me I wouldn't pay anything and she would absorb the full cost. It's actually financially beneficial for her to have me watch the kids, and it allows me to maintain an R with SS and SD.

We have both talked to C about how to tell the kids. All the basics... do it together, agree to the script beforehand, be reassuring, united front, etc... Both C agree to not tell the kids until about a month before she moves out. Otherwise they get to live through the constant pain that I've been in since September, for months on end.

We haven't discussed an in-house legal separation yet.

[workinghardguy]

What a crappy day... woke up at 3:30am and couldn't get back to sleep. Got up, putzed around, then went for my morning run. Got back from the run to find the family gerbil had escaped from his cage and was lying dead on the floor. Had to tell the kids about that. Took a nap and came to work late. On the way to work discovered I have a flat tire. Now sitting here at work drafting custody schedules, financial plans, and co-parenting agreements to arrange for the end of my M.

Yep... awesome, awesome day. This too shall pass.

[Rick1963]

WHG I hate days like this^^^^^^. I have had so many of them this year that I can't count. But I hope next year things will be better. I think you will make yourself nutty planning so far ahead for something that has not happened yet. Take a break from the sitch. Take a time of day that you allow yourself to worry, see if that helps.

[workinghardguy]

Thanks Rick. The above planning though isn't the "what if" stuff... this is actual put it down in writing and send it to my W so we can discuss type planning. Actual drafting of agreements and schedules versus worry-stuff.

This morning I decided I need to take a driver's seat in this fiasco. Leaving it all to her isn't working and all I get is anger from her and constant changes of direction. She's committed to it so I'm trying to protect myself, my S, my SS & SD as best I can, and get some agreements in place. Maybe if we can have some plans down she can see that she has all the space she wants and can deal better. I feel like I'm caretaking again, but this lack of detail is driving me nuts.

And April isn't all that far away really And the kids will know by February, if not sooner. We need to have specific answers for their questions.

It's just so sad. It feels like I'm the navigator on the Titanic and not only have I spotted the iceberg, but now I'm figuring out what's the best way to run right into it.

[Rick1963]

"lack of detail is driving me nuts."

Is this ^^^^^how you are usually? If so do a 180 and be relaxed, let the chips fall where they may. I am the same way always thinking ahead but had to change that during this stich. let her come up with the plans. You are trying to take control of the sitch. I know how hard it is but let go, I like control too but it really feels ok to let God drive for once. April is far away we still have to fight the snow and who knows what else. If she goes for a D your L will take care of many of your concerns. Hang in there

[oldtimer]

STOP! Don't try to do everything at once. Do a budget for Dec.-Jan.:

-- We put X$ toward debt, X$ toward bills, X$ into separate discretionary accounts for each of us.

Do a childcare schedule for the next six weeks.

There is no reason to plan for April now unless you are going for a legal separation agreement right now. What will you agree to in April is not the same thing as what you will agree to now. If you are going for a legal separation agreement now, by all means first talk to a lawyer, discretely. Don't go blabbing to W. Be decent, but not stupid.