Feel like I'm living the movie Groundhog Day...

[workinghardguy]

Journaling... nothing much to say tonight. One interesting moment from today was this morning as W was getting ready to head to breakfast with friends. S told her he was going to grandma's. W turned and looked at me and said, "Your going out again today?" and the unsaid part contained in her look was "and what the hell are you doing?". I just said yes, some things to do and people to meet and walked upstairs. That felt goooooood

W worked most of the day. Texted me and asked if I could make her a pot pie so it was ready when she got home. Said yes since I'm not a complete tool Spent some of the afternoon playing with S, painting, and reading with him. Cleaned the kitchen today as it needed it... somewhat of a 180 for me. The 180 though is that in the past when I did it, it was to curry favor with W. Now I just did it because it needed to be done. Don't care if W noticed or not.

Made sure I was in the basement working out when she got home. This forced her to eat dinner alone which I know she hates, but she best get used to it, right? After a while I got done and came upstairs. We talked Christmas stuff. Then she told me about her vacation requests at work. She mentioned a week in March she is taking off and said "I took it off for..." and then trailed off. She didn't finish it. I was assuming she was heading towards using the week to get divorce stuff started formally. But she didn't say anything more, and I just left it alone.

She works 12 hours tomorrow so it will be S and I again. Not sure what we'll do... we could use some veg time and no church service tomorrow so we'll see.

[workinghardguy]

Journaling... didn't get a chance to last night as the timing just didn't work. Quiet day. Son and I stayed around the house yesterday as I needed a day to just chill. He wanted to make cookies so we ended up making cookies, an apple pie, and a french silk pie. It did make me chuckle since I know my w will be minorly annoyed that my pies turned out so well. My W can cook pretty well but can't bake to save her life... I'm the opposite, I can bake really well but I'm so-so at cooking. I've always thought that's because I'm pretty good at following directions (which is all baking really is) and my W is better at improv on the fly.

Very little interaction with W all day. One phone call because she couldn't get into an online student loan account; turns out neither could I. Picked up SS and SD from their dad and got everyone in bed. W got home from work and I made myself largely scarce after a little convo about the kids. W had brought home a salad and sat down to eat it. She grabbed the paper and was looking through the "for rent" want ads section... so I left her alone. She doesn't get home until 9:30 and since I wanted to be up and running this morning I headed to bed at 10:00 which really minimizes the interaction. As I went to bed she was online looking at house rentals some more.

I didn't say anything or even react. That is just one more symptom, along with like a hundred other symptoms, of the bigger WAW-syndrome/mindset. I've decided I can't react to every symptom anymore because they are just debilitating to spend all that time reacting. But each one is like a little knife. Death by a thousand cuts I guess.

Bleh... just got off the phone with her she's looking for login info for her accounts. More consolidating and prepping herself for the split. Such is life, right? At least I was back to running this morning after the long weekend hiatus.

My goal today is to only be on here three times. Now, lunch, and later in the afternoon. I have to get more work done at work Hope everyone has a good day.

[Abbey]

Yep. Death by a thousand cuts is such an appropriate description.

Don't react or don't give her the reaction she expects. She's looking for a reaction. I'll give you the other side of the coin.

I brought my WAH to see a townhouse I like. (Every time I say I know I'm moving alone.) He doesn't like it. He's corrected me. Even going so far to say/do something this weekend that he wanted to indicate to me, of our "agreement" to leave the door open "just an inch". (He pinched his fingers together and made sure I knew he was saying, I'm leaving the door opened too.)

Anyway, I was rustling through some papers on the coffee table and one is some brochures for another town house builder. He asked: Is that more pictures of the house you like? I said: No, it's from X builder. He then said: Well good, because I like the other one, and I hate that X builder's stuff.

What diff would it make if he isn't going to live there? Ya know?

You'll get moments of clarity in the fog. They're there. If she's looking for new digs. YOU should purposely look at the junk mail that shows new furniture. Circle a couple of groovy couches or man cave furniture and leave them hanging round. Don't do it every day, but I think you get what I'm driving at.

[Rick1963]

My W is more secretive. I saw tons of ads for apartmens and houses in the recycling bin. I think my W is serious but she hasn't moved yet. On the other hand if she leaves you get to stay in the house, right? She too will be affected by a separation not just you and the kids. Trust me she is thinking of that also. Hang in there

[workinghardguy]

I've largely believed, really from the start, that we would have to "go through the rabbit hole" before we ever came out the other side together. I don't know that we will ever recon, but I have strongly believed it won't happen until after we're apart. My W needs for this to happen, for whatever reason. I can't say that it makes sense to me but it makes sense to her.

Years ago when I worked with at-risk youth I would be baffled by their irrational behavior. Then one of our senior staff helped me understand that while I may see their behavior as irrational, it IS rational to them. I just can't share their frame of reference because I'm not an at-risk youth with their background and history.

So it is here... My W's actions are irrational to ME (and maybe to the average person too). But it's irrelevant whether I think they are rational or not; they are rational to her. Only when the framework of her life changes, and what is rational and not rational changes because the framework changes, is there a real likelihood of her having a change of heart.

So in essence, my W isn't secretive because she doesn't see this as something wrong to do or something to be ashamed of. In fact, I would say it is the opposite... she is somewhat proud of standing on her own two feet, taking life by the horns, and doing what she feels she wants to do. To accomplish this pride she is minimizing the damage and trauma that will occur with the children, but of course there is no way to invalidate that view. Again, not until the reality hits do I see even a chance of having her "strong, single woman" mantra impacted. And in the interest of equal treatment, I am probably playing up in my own head the trauma and damage that will happen to the children. I'm not a fortune teller, so I don't know how this will or won't hurt our kids. I know it won't be wonderful and peaches, but it probably won't be as devastating as I've played it up in my mind to be.

She just texted me to tell me that she was able to get one of her student loans put into forebearance. That will save us $400/month. I replied that she did nice work and asked how long the forebearances were for. She replies with, "Until next November, but full deferment once back in school. We'll have some more money now for bills to get paid off and for me to save to move."

See... it's that last phrase that just drives me nuts. Yes, I know you want to move and this is part of that... I'm not an idiot.

All I replied with was, "Yep, I know". But you know what? I didn't want to reply with "no please don't" or "why?" or any of that. I just wanted to reply with what I did, because if she wants to go then I want her to go. I am sad, heartbroken really, and it hurts like hell. But if this is what she needs then go do it. And let's do it... because this constant dull grind is wearing pretty thin.

As I type this I wish I hadn't replied as I did... should've gone with the sarcastic humor I'm known for... something more like, "You're moving? Why didn't anyone tell me?" would have been much more my style

[oldtimer]

FWIW, I'd suggest you get her out of the house before XMAS. XMAS together is not going to make her wake up, if anything it will drive her further away. It will be horrible for you, not great for the kids. Remembering it every year will be horrible for all involved whether or not you reconcile. It will not be pleasant, or pretty, or sweet. It will suck. Just sayin...

Can you come up with a plan of how with that extra $400/month she can move out now and you'd be in the same place financially as if you waited until June?

Good job NOT going with the sarcastic humor (which is really not so fun for others.) Better response: "Great -- really looking forward to enhanced financial status. Smart idea!"

[oldtimer]

P.S. Giving her more space than she wants -- try to come up with some clear ideas. It seems you aren't giving her more space than she is looking for, but instead the minimal space she can tolerate easily. When she gets that minimal space, she gets a bit friendlier, that's all.

How about creating a firm childcare schedule? She has her times, you have your times. Period. Then, she doesn't have to seek permission for when she goes out, she can just go wherever when she isn't on childcare duty without involving you at all. Same for you.

How about getting distracted and starting to text some anonymous person when she's pursuing you?

How about setting up a legally binding separation agreement now to protect yourself financially. Right now, probably all debt is joint debt (except maybe student loans) no matter whose name it is in. That will continue to be the case until you D, probably. But, right now she will be more generous financially, especially if it will help get her out of the house more quickly. Trust me, the longer this goes on, the less generous she will become. The financial ties HURT your chances of reconciliation right now. Maintaining those ties keeps you in each others' business -- not helpful. It creates fights and resentment. It doesn't help your M heal. And if you D, you'll just be worse off by waiting.

Really -- consider a separation agreement for financial and custody matters much sooner than later. That will allow her to have the independence she wants.

Without real space and freedom to choose, she will never be able to tell what she wants and neither will you.

[oldtimer]

And trust me, if you are worried about a few thousand dollars, it is NOT worth it. (1) R-wise: To get the best chances of reconciliation is certainly worth a few thousand dollars. (2) If you get D: To get a MUCH better financial agreement in place now at the cost of a few thousand dollars now will be in your long-term financial interests.

[workinghardguy]

It seems you aren't giving her more space than she is looking for, but instead the minimal space she can tolerate easily. When she gets that minimal space, she gets a bit friendlier, that's all.

Hmmm... that's some pretty good insight... I think you're on to something. I would say it varies... some days I give her all the space she can handle (so much that she comes seeking me) but other days I respond too quickly and thus we end up locked together. Today for example... lots of texts and emails about financial stuff. I've purposely been very responsive with anything she needs access to so she can see that I want her to get what she needs to get out since that's what she wants. Now, about five minutes ago, she just called to chat. WTF? So I show her how much I am willing to hold the door open and she wants to stand in the open door and chat. BTW... I just cut her off and said I had to get to work and ended the call, though I wish I had simply not answered. Still trying to untrain myself...


Unfortunately there really isn't a way to have her move out now and get us to the point where this works. That $400/month simply means we will actually be able to get ourselves debt free by June.

She has no desire to get out before Christmas. The kids don't know at this point, and neither of us want to drop this on them at Christmas time. While we may look back at this Christmas with pain, I would think that dropping this on them right at Christmas would make the holiday sour for a very long time. Even her C and my C have said moving out now is a terrible idea because of how it would link the trauma of the split and the holidays in the minds of our kids.

Right now we're putting about $2000 a month towards paying off debt. If she moves out she would need to pick up $1000 of that per month. The other option is she moves out and we take forever to get rid of our marital debt. I am not willing to do that. It's probably because my first divorce we tried that, it failed, and I ended up in bankruptcy because my XW couldn't do her part of the deal. I'm not willing to do that again. And I've been upfront with her on this. I have told her, she can have her D but I won't sign a thing until we get our debts cleared out.

I know this is anti-DB and probably controlling, but it's my limit. Note that she isn't stopped from divorcing me... she could file any time and then it becomes a contested divorce. In our state that's probably 8-12 months to complete. Non-contested will take 5-6 months.

So... even if we filed today we'd still not be divorced until June anyway.

Lastly, the financials only work on her end if she gets more child support from her XH, which she is entitled to. She was going to file in October, but didn't. Then it was going to be November, but she didn't want to fight with her XH about Thanksgiving. Then it was going to be this week, but she doesn't want to fight with XH about Christmas. Well... ok then, I can't file for you, but it's another $400-$600/month that would certainly accelerate the move-out timetable and is the only way this works after the split.

We have already discussed the structure of much of our assets and financials. Really, my 401k is the only thing we haven't settled on.

As far as the child care, we haven't put it down in writing but have talked about it. We are already doing the "my weekend", "your weekend" thing. What we still need to do is the weekday schedule.

You're right though that she's very amendable at this point to anything that gets her out faster. The problem is making that actually happen.

[workinghardguy]

More R/D talk tonight... this is getting old. Night was going fine, dinner was great, we worked together on dinner and had fun. Kids were funny and we all had a good time.

After dinner SD asks my W why she isn't wearing her wedding ring anymore. W says it doesn't fit. That assuages them for now I guess.

In the kitchen W starts the R/D talk. Looking for info, sharing concerns. I validate, validate, validate. She begins to reneg on the childcare arrangements... concerned that if she starts dating someone I will use the child care as a weapon. Cancel without notice, leave her hanging, etc... This is where I start to stand my ground. I point out I have done nothing to stop this D and have only given her space. That I will have a problem if she chooses to pull the stepkids away as we had agreed upon. She backs off and just says that she has trust issues and its hard for her to trust me. Well, for this to work, co-parenting, she is going to have to work on that. Her issues should not infect my relationship with the kids.

Then she starts talking about this will all happen in April, or at least the move will. That's the only vacation time she could get and she needs time off to get moved. Well, I can't chain you to the house so when you're going to go you're going to go. Then we're back on when to tell the kids. Looks like February... but she wants to file for increased child support from XH and plans to tell the court about the coming D. Then fears XH will tell the kids... what a friggin' mess.

She then backs off, though I don't know that we're done yet. She also went on a little trip that she's afraid I'm going to screw her in the divorce. Really? I don't even want the damn thing! And now I'm going to screw you? But I validated and listened. I pointed out that we've been cooperative and open and we can keep being that. That my ultimate goal is a positive co-parenting relationship and that won't work if she feels victimized or taken advantage of and is angry with me. That I don't want her trashing me or bad-mouthing me in front of our S. So why would I create a situation that invites that?

She goes on to say that I know that would never happen. I couldn't resist... I pointed out that it happens frequently with her XH. That when he is an ass or a pain she goes on these tirades about him and usually directs it at SS and SD. "Well we could have xyz if you dad followed through on anything he says he will do" and so on. She got this very pained look on her face... like it was the first time she realized that she does it or maybe the first time she's had it said to her.

So we talk some more. She complained that she is having to do all the heavy lifting on this D. I admitted that yes, she is. I will not help. I won't stop her, but I certainly won't help. She sighs and says she knows. It's just so hard. Boo-frickin-hoo.

The convos mercifully ended on a convo about what we might tell the kids. I mention that I don't think SS will be too broken up and that SD will be ok b/c she will see it as a chance for mom and dad to get back together. She disagrees... she says she doesn't know why, but lately the kids ask about me first thing when they get home. That SD insists on a song and kiss from me before bed. That things are different than they were. I simply say, well, I'm trying to be a better dad and person, maybe they've noticed and leave it at that.

The one other item that did piss me off tonight was this obnoxious fallacy she has... SS is an introvert and doesn't make a lot of friends. This bothers W who is an extrovert. She talks to him about it a bunch. This last talk SS tells her that he doesn't play with other kids at recess b/c he doesn't know how to play football. This plays right into my W's complaint that she asked me repeatedly to teach him football and I never did. Which is untrue, but that's her version.

I started to argue and debate. I started to point out that we did do football, that I don't believe EVERY kid on the playground plays football, and that the relationship issues of a 12 year boy may have something more to do with his mom divorcing his dad when he was three and then mentally checking out of the marriage to his stepdad when he was 10. Yeah... that might have more impact than not knowing how to play football.

But then I catch myself. I simply apologized that I didn't do enough nor did I spend enough time with SS. That I regret that and that it always felt awkward since his dad is his primary role model, but that I could have and should have done more. And then I left it at that. There were a few other things she said but I got the feeling that she is putting the onus of the SS's issues on me. That how he is, is primarily because of my failings. So time apart would be good... perhaps she can see it is some of her doing too...

So just frustrating and obnoxious. I'm very ready for this to be over. For her to move out and to move to the next step, whatever that is. This together thing... it's just too much heartache and pain. She doesn't know what she wants and the confusion is chaos. Sh!t or get off the pot. Not having to see her or deal with this crap every week/every day would be a giant relief.