Beginning now...

[AntoniaB]

Hey IB, I was really happy to see that your XH met your kids without OW since they asked for that. That is a positive step perhaps in the way they interact.

I have to say that I really didn't miss XH this holiday. (and it wasn't just the drama in my family that you read about that makes me say this).

I just guess the positives are overtaking the negatives for me, so I don't feel the pull so much. I am really struck by how different this holiday feels from the last year's holiday. I think even if you feel this heartache, you're still enormously better than you were, so take pride in that.

If you feel like bawling, cry your eyes out and get it out, and go on. The decorating will probably help you too...I think the "feel" of the change of the seasons, which can come with decorating your house, can make you feel the passage of time more.

And you might want to try to come up with some new tradition, nothing big, but something new so that you DO have a change in traditions.

[irishblessings]

Kids had breakfast with their dad. It was not a good experience for them. It seems that after each get together - as rare as they are - the kids come away numb. My heart breaks for them.

My youngest son - will be 18 in a few weeks - has been a true challenge for me the last few months. He is defiant, disrespectful and he is now bordering on incorrigible. I am so broken over this turn of events. I feel weak and beaten. I have no one to turn to for help or support with this issue. His ugliness is so hard to deal with - I am at the end of my rope / I really can't take much more loss.

I need prayers...

[AntoniaB]

Is this the same son whose games you're always going to despite having to confront XH and OW publicly?

I'm SURE everyone will disagree with me but if that were my son, and he was taking out his aggression over his father on me, I'd stop going to his games. But again, I do not have kids and I do not know how these things work.

I will continue to pray for you, but I guess the other thing I would say is that whatever way you and your XH would have normally "dealt" with behavior like his, whatever he's doing, you should do the same. You said you have no one to turn to for help or support. Well you are the lone person here and you have it in you to discipline him. You're not USED to doing this I'm sure, and when a male is "acting up" I'm sure it helps to have his father come down on him, but taking out his anger at his father on you just plain isn't doing right by you after all you've done to keep things "together" for your family, and it's not going to make him feel better anyway.

I understand the feeling of "weak and beaten" but you need to take that emotion and turn it around into some sort of boundary with this son, some sort of consequence or action. Just keep saying to yourself, "I am not a victim. I'm a survivor. And survivors don't allow their kids to mistreat them and this is what I'm going to parent this son entirely myself."

I know it's easier said than done but this is the same strategy you use to fight everything else. Feel the victim role, you'll be a victim...feel the stronger, more capable role, and you will become it.

[irishblessings]

Antonia - I really, truly appreciate this post! For better or worse - I've always had the "never give up" mentality. It's the stubborn Irish side of me showing. The boundaries I set are almost always met with hateful disrespect. My older Ds saw this displayed on Thanksgiving. My one D said to her brother - "She has the right to say "NO" to you sometimes." That sent S into a rage and he left. The night was ending anyway and we all left to go home. But it took this lovely holiday and turned it into a dark, heavy night.

In reality, he is spoiled. I have probably overcompensated over the last 18 months. I have worked hard to keep his life "normal" - but it has been an emotional roller-coaster.

He threatens to move out and I try to redirect. Not only do I not want to lose my son - but also, if truth be told - I am trying to avoid another dive into the cesspool that has become my trashy life. I try to hold my head up through the other public displays with the OW and XH - but I don't think I can take the loss of my son as well. Would these behaviors have shown themselves if the divorce had not taken place - maybe. But I honestly believe that to have 2 parents united in raising him would have significantly reduced the odds.

I am sorry if I sound like I'm whining here - I am honestly just at my wits end!

[AntoniaB]

IB you have to DB him :-)

Don't even think about the whole "2 parents united raising him might have reduced the odds." 2 parents DID raise him. The space of time that there is one parental influence is small by comparison to the time where there were 2 parents.

I would suspect that for someone his age there is a lot of anger at the parent who left, especially if there is this public display of the OP, and they don't know what to do with it, and you're the closest target. In a way it's "not personal", it's misdirected...he's projecting his anger at his dad onto you. He can't control his dad at all...but he thinks he can somehow control you (or your responses) by the threats.

Unless he has a place to go (like a friend whose parents wouldn't mind an extra kid...doubtful..as most 18 year olds can't afford to move out anymore) then it's just threats designed to control you in some way.

Stop working to keep his life normal if it's killing you. Your first concern really is you, and you probably still don't put yourself first.

I almost think you have to lay out a boundary, kind of like "if you do this/that/the other I'm walking away from you and I won't engage in further discussion/yelling/whatever." And when you walk away literally, you have to also walk away emotionally and know that you laid the boundary rules for acceptable interaction and he broke them, and that is NOT on you, and it's OUT of your control.

I think Eric went through some issues with his eldest for awhile and I remember he used the DB principles with him as much as possible. It's what you know best, IB :-) And don't worry, you're not whining at all.

[AJM]

You are very much not whining.

It's not easy, IB. It's easy to have kids, but raising them is a whole different ball of wax...

My youngest son - will be 18 in a few weeks - has been a true challenge for me the last few months. He is defiant, disrespectful and he is now bordering on incorrigible.

I'm SURE everyone will disagree with me but if that were my son, and he was taking out his aggression over his father on me, I'd stop going to his games.

In a way it's "not personal", it's misdirected...he's projecting his anger at his dad onto you

Sons and daughters are *supposed* to be a challenge. If they were not, they would live with you forever, no? I think Antonia is right about the "it's not personal". Think about it. He needs a parent that is a PARENT. He doesn't need a friend. You are the "safe" parent. He can be himself and safely express his anger without thinking you'll run away. He's right. You won't.

Antonia is also right that I won't agree you should stop going to his games. You should love him despite his behavior. You should set boundaries and very slowly change the way you parent as you come back to center from over compensating. He's been through a lot at a turbulent point in his life, but he needs a parent. You're it. Be that parent, but understand and respect the changes he is going through. He needs you to parent differently than you have since he is an adult for practical purposes. A young one, but an adult just the same.

My daughter has done similarly. Sad for me, but it's part of it. She has taken on her mother's anger. She has become her mother for practical purposes and is "trying" on that persona. Seems natural if not grotesque at this point considering her mothers state of perpetual anger. But that's how it works.

Wear it like a badge of honor. Know that a son will NEVER abandon his mother as he learns to leave the nest. He'll use you to learn and to push away because you are the foundation he needs. Years from now he will thank you profusely for being his mother even during the difficult times and for showing him how to handle difficulties; I know I thank my mother for what she did for me. In short, he will learn from you by watching how you handle things. He will learn from his father as well, but you are in the trusted position and can do the most damage if not careful. You are in the position to make the damage your husband did insurmountable for your son.

He is 17 almost 18. Anger is the easy emotion to express and it is part of his learning, not personal. His father being there or not, would likely just give him a differet target. But in this case, his father is not "safe" to express his emotions to. That's hard on a boy his age. Having a mother is essential though as well and it is normal for a boy his age to push away from his mother even in united family units.

Give him the gift of his mother's unconditional love and wear it as a badge of honor that you are able to be sane and be his parent and to give him that love. I know if you didn't care, you wouldn't even complain

AJ

[ericmsant2]

Irish

Oh sweetie my heart goes out to you. I had to deal with this with my oldest. It sucked! I would sit around and blame my xw all the time. Lord knows she was very good at subtly bashing me or putting herself in the role of victim.

Here is what i can tell you......first it will get better. You may not see it nor feel it right now. I know i didnt.

Your son right now is probably angry and needs to release it - hence he is acting out. Well your probably saying why me.....i didn't ask for this....this is so not right....why does H get a free pass.....why do i have to deal with this.....i'm so tired......he must hate me......he thinks it is my fault......etc...etc...etc

None of those thought are probably true. What is more likely is...1) he is angry and needs to angry at someone. Most children will take this anger out on the parent they KNOW WILL NOT ABANDON THEM AND THE ONE THAT WILL NOT RETURN THE ANGER. Right now IB that is you. Sorry it is the lot you have been cast. So how do you change it? Ya cant....you must push through it. Allow him to feel his anger but with firm and i mean firm boundaries! He is not allowed to disrespect you. Period! If he does well then he can go to his room or leave. You IB are no ones punching bag! No ones....not your xh, not your sons no ones!

2) some of the behavior is also typical normal teenage behavior. Ya cant take it personal. Easier said than done i know....but do stuff to avoid it as much as possible. You are raising a man! A man that must learn to respect women. That respect starts with you.

3) stop spoiling him. Stop being afraid of what he will do. F it...if he pulls the "i want to live with dad card" ....my response would be..i'm sorry you feel that way, but i respect you and your choices. You will always have a room here.

In terms of disrespecting you....how do you want him to treat his future patner? With respect i assume? If so then he must learn respect...how...rather whom will he learn this from? YOU. How? By showing him that you will respect yourself!

4) he will test. They all do. Hey will try and play you and your xh against each other. They all do. It aint easy IB...but keep walking the high road. Keep being consistent. Keep being firm. Never give up on him! Never. Do not focus on what your xh does with him. Just be you!

Ya know IB i wanted to quit on my son. For almost two years he treated me like chit. Until i said enough. When i finally moved out of the home..he refused to stay with me. When he did come over for a day.....everybody saw how he treated me. Many nights i cried..thank god and thanms to the friends i have on these boards i never quit.

Fast forward a few months.....

My son calls me

He spends more time with me than with his mother

He loves being in our home

He talks to me......open ups now....

Today we are going to the movies....

In closing i leave you with a story from a few days ago...

My son, my daughter (10) and i are in the car. My son starts telling me that his mom is being a pain, that she is so disorganized that it is really getting on his nerves. He said that the two of them had it out. That she does nothing around the house..etc etc. My response was that she is still his mother and that he needs to respect her. My daughter chimes in and says stop bashing mom..she works a lot. My son looks at my D and says........i was against dad for a long time, i gave him hell....dad has had more to deal with than Mom and guess what dad works a lot too but he finds a way to do it. He finds a way....so i am not bashing mom..just calling it the way i see it!

After i smiled inside (as hard as it was a kept a straight face).... i changed the subject to "so you guys hungry".

IB In that moment i realized that taking the high road, that establish healthy boundaries, that not quitting, that being consistent......paid off!

Not easy sweetie...but look you and i have already dealt with mlc cheating spouses that demonized us....what makes you think we cant deal with this.

Hold on sweeties.....he is gonna be eating out of your hand in no time.

You know how to reach me.....

God bless
Eric

[AntoniaB]

AJ and Eric you guys are awesome. This is such great advice for IB and anyone else going through this stuff. I never had to deal with any of this (and never will since I'm a cat mom only :-)

[irishblessings]

I can't thank you all enough for your support and sage advice:) I know he is angry and I know he is hurt by the way his last 2 years of high school have turned out. He has told me that he shouldn't have to put up effort to reach out to his dad - his dad should just be here. I know he feels abandoned and angry - but I also know that I can't allow him to fall into an abyss of self-pity and self-destruction.

I have no plans on giving up on him. I understand Antonia's perspective about stepping away and not going to his games and such. The same rule applies for me that it has with the divorce - I have to look myself in the mirror and believe that I have done EVERYTHING I was supposed to do to be a supportive parent (wife) and to prove my commitment to my role as his mother. For better or worse...I may sound like a fool and God knows I've got PLENTY of reasons to walk away from the whole d*mn thing but that's not who or what I am.

Thanks again for your help!

[RLay1100]

Is there anyone else posting here who have an X that completely dropped contact with them? When I was cleaning up my old email files I saw these loving and kind notes from X that just instantly stopped. Since he has been gone - there has been NO looking back on his part. I am not sure how that happens. He is very enamored with his new life and his new love. She is SO different from me - polar opposite. When I was spending time with my kids this weekend I couldn't help but think about all X was missing out on - what we shared and loved together. I guess if I was being completely honest, I am still looking for hope that he will wake up one day and reach out. Intellectually I know I am wasting time with these feelings - emotionally, it's another story. Some of these feelings have been sparked by reading posts here where ne. Just wondering...

I was just talking to my counselor about having the hope that my WAS will realize what he's lost and reach out. I guess there is still a part of me that doesn't feel value without that... like... I'm nothing until he validates me with remorse and regret for what he's done...